4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

[kyrub]

I entirely forgot there was a bug report on that ancent patch.

 

[laclongquan]

Kyrub, I remember there's a bug regarding psy combat and reactor power

According to here's post, psi combat ignore reactor power DESPITE the game display other wise. Ie it displayed that a fusion reactor has some effect when in fact there's no effect in that.

Does your patch fix it or not?

 

[kyrub]

Honestly, it has not been my area to fix the bugs, that's what scient did on large scale and much more efficiently. I can surely try, but...
Isn't the psi attack already an underwhelming option in the game? Correcting this "issue" would make it absolutely crap in later stages, would it not?

 

[laclongquan]

Hmmm, that's definitely a point~

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

What's the lastest version of Kyrubs patch and where can I download it?

 

[Cael]

Psi attack is pretty good if you are behind on techs or production. It basically negates the other guy's techs and if done carefully, they can be "free" units in terms of manufacture (not maintainence). When I was playing the game, I recall sending out Unity rovers just to find and capture mindworms so that I never have to build more than the minimal defences required to keep my bases from rioting. The mindworms took care of every attempt by Miriam to penetrate my borders. At one stage, in one game, I still have 1/1 scouts protecting my bases, even though I have techs for fusion lasers and photon wall, or something like that.

 

[Absinthe]

Kyrub, I remember there's a bug regarding psy combat and reactor power

According to here's post, psi combat ignore reactor power DESPITE the game display other wise. Ie it displayed that a fusion reactor has some effect when in fact there's no effect in that. Does your patch fix it or not?

Native life forms are supposed to ignore reactor rating. It's how they stay relevant as the game progresses. Human psi attackers, on the other hand, do use reactor rating.

Psi attack is pretty good if you are behind on techs or production. It basically negates the other guy's techs and if done carefully, they can be "free" units in terms of manufacture (not maintainence). When I was playing the game, I recall sending out Unity rovers just to find and capture mindworms so that I never have to build more than the minimal defences required to keep my bases from rioting. The mindworms took care of every attempt by Miriam to penetrate my borders. At one stage, in one game, I still have 1/1 scouts protecting my bases, even though I have techs for fusion lasers and photon wall, or something like that.

Native life forms are also maintenance free as long as you keep them on fungus tiles. And psi attack gets better once you pump it with secret projects and/or a high planet rating, which gives a 10% bonus (or penalty) to psi attack (but not defense) per point. Human psi attackers also improve with morale rating/facilities, and if it's Alien Crossfire you can give them Dissociative Wave (Goodbye trance/song) and Soporific Gas Pods (enemies get -2 to morale). On the other hand if you use native life forms your morale rating can be negative and you can be behind on reactor strength but you won't care.

 

[Average Manatee]

I thought Reactor rating was just treated as HP (e.g. reactor 1 = 10 HP, reactor 2 = 20 HP)? How exactly do you "ignore" that, do hits against reactor 2 with psi do double damage?

Psi's problem (with built units) is that it's a fairly lategame tech that is only useful if you are behind on tech. If you do want to use it, you need both high morale and high planet rating, and maximizing those SEs makes your faction kind of shit. Lategame already favors the defender, so Psi's 3:2 base advantage is worse than what you'd normally get, and defense already sucks because your attacker can just rape your crawlers.

Native life rushes are absolute rape though. Mostly because fungus cloaks, heals, and acts as a road for you, and in a game in which getting off the first shot means you almost always win, you almost always win.

 

[Cael]

I thought Reactor rating was just treated as HP (e.g. reactor 1 = 10 HP, reactor 2 = 20 HP)? How exactly do you "ignore" that, do hits against reactor 2 with psi do double damage?

Psi's problem (with built units) is that it's a fairly lategame tech that is only useful if you are behind on tech. If you do want to use it, you need both high morale and high planet rating, and maximizing those SEs makes your faction kind of shit. Lategame already favors the defender, so Psi's 3:2 base advantage is worse than what you'd normally get, and defense already sucks because your attacker can just rape your crawlers.

Native life rushes are absolute rape though. Mostly because fungus cloaks, heals, and acts as a road for you, and in a game in which getting off the first shot means you almost always win, you almost always win.

Damage is calculated as a %age. Doesn't matter what your reactor rating is.

And one of the reasons why I like the Gaians. I don't have to deal with producing units as much.

 

[Absinthe]

Speaking of maintenance costs, IIRC the starting unit, any rovers you recover from pods, and any native life forms you capture don't have a home base, so they are all maintenance free at all times (unless for some stupid reason you decide to assign them to a home base). Any native life forms you build will cost you maintenance unless you park them on fungus tiles. There's a slight trick here in that you can just upgrade your starting unit and any rovers you found into more useful units later on without ever having to pay maintenance for them. I think probe-subverted units might not have a home base either so they'd be maintenance free too.

 

[Blaine]

Hi, I'm just popping in to remind everyone that it's 2018 and SMAC still hasn't been surpassed.

 

[Absinthe]

Master of Magic hasn't been surpassed yet either.

 

[Jason Liang]

Hi, I'm just popping in to remind everyone that it's 2018 and SMAC still hasn't been surpassed.

In what category? Strategy game? Multiplayer game? PC Game of All Time?

 

[Blaine]

In what category? Strategy game? Multiplayer game? PC Game of All Time?

Yes.

 

[Jason Liang]

I'd have to disagree. SMAC isn't perfect. The AI is still retarded, the GUI is outdated, and like all civ games the endgame is a pain in the ass to manage. The combat system could be more interesting. Also the gameplay has some broken and exploited mechanics like crawler-rushing Secret Projects. Speaking of which, even not counting SMAX's Cloudbase Academy, some Secret Projects are still OP like Weather Paradigm. Also the game isn't balanced for multiplayer.

SMAC is sui generis, but there are more perfect computer games like Star Control 2 and Sid Meier's Pirates! (remake). SMAC should have a remake of its own.

 

[Blaine]

Who said it was perfect? Perfection is a practical impossibility. The concept exists only as an ideal, a theoretical tool with which to gain insight into something by viewing it through a certain lens. Even comparative perfection is shaky grounds for an argument.

Besides, perfection isn't everything. Having flaws can even add to the appeal of a thing, depending on context of course.

Star Control 2 and Pirates! are far less complex games than SMAC, so having fewer flaws and imperfections is no great feat.

 

[Average Manatee]

Speaking of maintenance costs, IIRC the starting unit, any rovers you recover from pods, and any native life forms you capture don't have a home base, so they are all maintenance free at all times (unless for some stupid reason you decide to assign them to a home base). Any native life forms you build will cost you maintenance unless you park them on fungus tiles. There's a slight trick here in that you can just upgrade your starting unit and any rovers you found into more useful units later on without ever having to pay maintenance for them. I think probe-subverted units might not have a home base either so they'd be maintenance free too.

I recall bases randomly taking maintenance penalties earlier than support rating suggests in some instances. I've sort of assumed independents look for a base with empty maintenance slots to assign themselves to, but if they can't find one they apply a maintenance penalty somewhere. Or perhaps its some unrelated bug.

A better trick is to just use crawlers and probes with armor for defense and/or scouting. It's actually cheaper making e.g. a 4/4/1 probe defender than it is making a 4/1/1 clean defender. Only downside is that they don't police. Extra bonus: Having a spot for Comm Jammer instead of Clean Reactor is great since it also works vs. Probes, meaning you're probably invulnerable to all of those speeder-chassis probe teams if you use these to garrison your shit.

I'd have to disagree. SMAC isn't perfect. The AI is still retarded, the GUI is outdated, and like all civ games the endgame is a pain in the ass to manage. The combat system could be more interesting. Also the gameplay has some broken and exploited mechanics like crawler-rushing Secret Projects. Speaking of which, even not counting SMAX's Cloudbase Academy, some Secret Projects are still OP like Weather Paradigm. Also the game isn't balanced for multiplayer.

SMAC is sui generis, but there are more perfect computer games like Star Control 2 and Sid Meier's Pirates! (remake). SMAC should have a remake of its own.

I think the point of Secret Projects is to be OP. Last thing we need is shit no one bothers to build. Really, around half of Secret Projects are game changers and another 25% are very powerful, which is good. Cloudbase Academy isn't that important, games are usually decided before then and if not the one who build it was probably going to win anyway.

 

[Jason Liang]

Fine, but then that just returns to the question, in what respect is SMAC unsurpassed?

What *is* SMAC? A strategy game? An interactive story? An RPG? A speculative future simulation? A game? An experience? A work of art? An educational tool?

Is SMAC really a game? Is it fun to play?

If SMAC is the greatest PC Game of all time, or even top 5, then why isn't it more commercially successful?

However, despite its critical reception, it sold the fewest copies of all the games in the Civilization series.[18] It sold more than 100,000 copies in its first two months of release. This was followed by 50,000 copies in April, May and June.[6] In the United States alone, Alpha Centauri's sales reached 224,939 copies by April 2000.

In 2000, Diablo was the 20th best-selling computer game in the United States, with 260,020 copies sold.[32] As of August 29, 2001, Diablo had sold 2.5 million copies worldwide.

Had SMAC sold like Diablo, I bet it would have gotten a sequel or remake.

If you had to choose 1 computer game to recommend someone who will never play another computer game again in their lifetime, would it really be SMAC? If you were serving a life sentence in jail and you only had access to 1 computer game, would it really be SMAC?

UPDATE: I put a poll up in the General Gaming forum.

 

[Cael]

Speaking of maintenance costs, IIRC the starting unit, any rovers you recover from pods, and any native life forms you capture don't have a home base, so they are all maintenance free at all times (unless for some stupid reason you decide to assign them to a home base). Any native life forms you build will cost you maintenance unless you park them on fungus tiles. There's a slight trick here in that you can just upgrade your starting unit and any rovers you found into more useful units later on without ever having to pay maintenance for them. I think probe-subverted units might not have a home base either so they'd be maintenance free too.

It depends on distance from your nearest base. If it is within a certain distance, then the nearest base takes up the maintenance. If not, it is free.

I believe that if it is nearer to an enemy base, it will also be free regardless of distance, but I could be wrong on this one.

 

[Jason Liang]

If SMAC/ SMAX were remade with FMV, whom would be your ideal cast for the faction leaders?

Diedre - Abigail Spencer - Look at her, you can tell vegan. I would definitely buy her as a biology teacher

Yang - Takei, duh

Zak - Larry David - "The first living thing to go through the device was a small white rat. I still have him, in fact. As you can see, the damage was not so great as they say."

Morgan - Larry David Barack Obama - Imagine in Obama's speaking manner: "Resources exist to be consumed. And consumed they will be, if not by this generation then by some future. By what right does this forgotten future seek to deny us our birthright? None I say! Let us take what is ours, chew and eat our fill."

Santiago - Lucy Lawless

Mirriam - Amy Adams

Lol - Irfan Khan

Aki - ScarJo Kristen Bell

Roze - Thandie Newton - girl definitely knows about the jazz.

Domai - Chris Hemsworth Steve Schirripa Jeremy Renner

Cha Dawn - Kim Jong-Un - He's a gamer. Just tell him it's for Civ 7.

Ulrik - Kid Rock Thor Hemsworth

 

[Cael]

Collateral damage that can kill would stop the doomstack problem, but it would create other problems, like the AI not being able to handle getting its doomstack killed easily by savvy human players with the right units.

 

[Jason Liang]

It's interesting to think about SMAC like that (as a Civilization-building game rather than a Space Empire strategy game). SMAC has this unique scope in the genre where the struggle is for one planet rather than a space empire. That sort of goes counter to the expectations we've been fed by science fiction literature, that along with space travel we will also have developed the technology to colonize the planets we find. In that sense SMAC has a unique story and situation where that's not true and in fact a lot of early technologies have been lost and have to be rediscovered, i.e. it's not until Advanced Spaceflight that human civilization has recovered space travel. SMAC take place entirely in those 10 turns in other space strategy games after you colonize an empty planet and click end turn waiting for it to grow enough population to build its own colony ship. You'd think there would be more games about this limited scope, a struggle over a single alien planet, but there aren't. If it's a single planet, it's Earth. If it isn't Earth, it's the entire galaxy. Star Wars expectations.

Of course in a sense SMAC sort of cheats the endgame. After Advanced Spaceflight, it's reasonable to assume that the factions would build off-Planet colony ships and establishing off-Planet colonies.

Of course, we might also envision a SMAC remake where an alien invasion plays like an UFO: Alien Defense minigame.

And I still want voice command controls! THAT's there next real innovation of strategy games. Voice command and touch screen (or VR). Gaming at the speed of sound.

Alpha Centauri VR. I like the sound of that.

 

[Average Manatee]

Of course in a sense SMAC sort of cheats the endgame. After Advanced Spaceflight, it's reasonable to assume that the factions would build off-Planet colony ships and establishing off-Planet colonies.

Pretty sure FTL isn't supposed to exist in SMAC. SMAC takes off (literally) from a science victory in Civilization, meaning a colony ship with colonists in stasis that takes 50-100 years to reach its destination (ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)). Meaning if it took you 50 years to build a rocket, 50 years to get there, 50 years for them to build a rocket, and 50 years to get back, it's 200 years minimum before you get any return on a colonization investment.

Unless you meant colonizing within the system, but Alpha Centauri has no other known planets and just putting people in space is... well in SMAC land it seems great since you have magical satellites giving infinite food, energy and minerals, but IRL it doesn't make much sense to put people in space habitats for the heck of it.

 

[Cael]

Of course in a sense SMAC sort of cheats the endgame. After Advanced Spaceflight, it's reasonable to assume that the factions would build off-Planet colony ships and establishing off-Planet colonies.

Pretty sure FTL isn't supposed to exist in SMAC. SMAC takes off (literally) from a science victory in Civilization, meaning a colony ship with colonists in stasis that takes 50-100 years to reach its destination (ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)). Meaning if it took you 50 years to build a rocket, 50 years to get there, 50 years for them to build a rocket, and 50 years to get back, it's 200 years minimum before you get any return on a colonization investment.

Unless you meant colonizing within the system, but Alpha Centauri has no other known planets and just putting people in space is... well in SMAC land it seems great since you have magical satellites giving infinite food, energy and minerals, but IRL it doesn't make much sense to put people in space habitats for the heck of it.

Original Civ travel time to AC was 15.2 years if you have all of the spaceship upgrades.

 

[Jason Liang]

Of course in a sense SMAC sort of cheats the endgame. After Advanced Spaceflight, it's reasonable to assume that the factions would build off-Planet colony ships and establishing off-Planet colonies.

Pretty sure FTL isn't supposed to exist in SMAC. SMAC takes off (literally) from a science victory in Civilization, meaning a colony ship with colonists in stasis that takes 50-100 years to reach its destination (ala https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion_(nuclear_propulsion)). Meaning if it took you 50 years to build a rocket, 50 years to get there, 50 years for them to build a rocket, and 50 years to get back, it's 200 years minimum before you get any return on a colonization investment.

Unless you meant colonizing within the system, but Alpha Centauri has no other known planets and just putting people in space is... well in SMAC land it seems great since you have magical satellites giving infinite food, energy and minerals, but IRL it doesn't make much sense to put people in space habitats for the heck of it.

That's true but then it should take at least several hundred years to go from FTL to Secrets of Creation and N-Space Compression. Anyway, there seems to be one or more chapters missing from the SMAC endgame that seem fudged over.

SMAC *does* indirectly reference colonizing and mining Nessus and Pholus, Planet's twin moons.

Hm. That would be a cool way to resolve the Alien Crossfire scenario. The Human factions have to build a colony ship to escape Planet before the Alien splinter factions build their communication beacon and summon the armada to wipe everyone else out. So it would be a race.