Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

4X The Unsurpassed Brian Reynolds' Alpha Centauri thread

Favorite Faction?


  • Total voters
    267
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
1,853,653
Location
Belém do Pará, Império do Brasil
Yeah I remember doing that. My sparta strategy was very mobility-based - it was all about getting a elite cadre surrounded by lowerlevel fodder and using elite rovers and infantry for mobile advantage. 3 move Rovers ftw.

Enviado de meu SM-G3502T usando Tapatalk
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
If Spartans have Xenoempathy Dome though they get fungus+road odds of spawning worms (1/27), so they actually have incentive to avoid or destroy the secret project if they're worm-popping. Other than that I think Spartans really need Cloning Vats for a strong lategame. Constant pop booms are strong for any AI but Spartans also need it to remove the penalties on the Power value. Otherwise they're just going to keep falling further and further behind.
 

JBro

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
701
What's wrong with it? I have the expansion with yitzi's patch and the vanilla game with the AI patch.

Also, what's the highest difficulty level where the AI doesn't get cheats and extra shit?
 

Ventessel

Literate
Joined
Jan 25, 2017
Messages
36
For me it was mainly that the additional factions didn't really improve the game. Aside from the completely busted aliens, there were just no new mechanics or interesting combinations created by the expansion factions.

The pirate guys (Nautilus Pirates, I believe?) were OK, but naval gameplay was weak and didn't really get better in the expansion. Aside from them, the factions were either meh or overpowered (just mechanically better than base factions).

On the whole, I just felt the expansion broke the asthetic of the original without adding much substance.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

catfood

AGAIN
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
9,314
Location
Nirvana for mice
Should I play with the expansion?
Here's the thing about the expansion: it comes with a main feature (the new factions) and some minor features (a couple of new wonders, a new alien lifeform and some rebalancing). The problem is that the main feature is garbage.

Play with the expansion, but ignore the new factions, they're crap.

Oh hey look a pirate faction! YARR

Oh hey a HAXX0R faction cuz hax0rz are cool n shit.

Oh hey there's an eco faction that is pretty much exactly like our other eco faction. Aren't we original.

Also here's two alien factions that are so completely broken that they simply annihilate the other AI players every single time.

So the new factions can be split into three categories: 1) completely broken (the aliens and pirates), 2) superfluous (eco and woker faction), 3) retarded (h4xx0rz)

The expansion itself otherwise isn't too bad. It tries to balance the game by tweaking some wonders (that wonder that made you immune to probe teams now only makes you less susceptible to them).
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
I like the 5 human SMAX factions. They have different flavor and mechanics and besides are just as well-written as the original 7. They are also "rogue" factions flavorwise.

The Data Angels fight for freedom of information. Mechanically they exploit OP research factions like University and Cybernetic Consciousness.
Cha Dawn's Cultists are fundamentalist terrorists that make Miriam "normal" in comparison. They also play very differently from Deidre; whereas you might imagine Deidre's Former plan involves lots of Forests, Cha Dawn would probably like to cover everything in Fungus (even though he doesn't get Deidre's nutrient bonus).
Free Drones represent the Drones. Like Angels, they represent a decentralized sovereignty that isn't present in the original 7.
Pirates are a 3rd decentralized faction, and obviously play extremely different mechanically compared to the original 7.
Cybernetic Consciousness is flavorwise extremely different compared to University. Obviously this is the "Borg" for Star Trek. Mechanically they suit a hybrid strategy more than University, without University's policing problems. In fact, if anything they are more like Gaians with a better research bonus.

As far as balance goes, the SMAX 5 are powerful but not more powerful than the best SMAC 7 factions. Deidre and Zharkov start with Centauri Ecology which is really the single best advantage in the game, and obviously Hive and Believers have OP advantages. The SMAX 5 are signficantly stronger than Morgan, Lal and Santiago but not stronger than the other 4.

Also, if you mostly play single player, it's great being able to replace weak AI factions like Morgan with slightly more challenging AI factions like Pirates and CC. Or the Aliens.
 
Last edited:

JBro

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 12, 2016
Messages
701
What about the difficulty? Which one should I be playing on where the AI doesn't get extra shit? Librarian?
 

Lujo

Augur
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
242
Should I play with the expansion?

No, the main selling point of Alpha Centauri is strong flavor, and the original factions are the basis of it. The factions in the expansion are nowhere near as well done.

EDIT: There's obviously way more to it than JUST flavor, but what's impressively captivating about it is that it manages to be character-driven and is a rare example of a game which delves into ideologies. It was simply incredible, for example, to see "free market" come with a crippling police hit, especially at the time the game was made. Mechanically it's more or less just a civ game, with balancing issues and a rather tedious interface when you get down to it, but it blew people's minds with the sf (and social science aspects of it) at the time. And Morgan is a charismatic bastard.

---

As for difficulty, the game really only has one difficulty, transcendant. It's easy to completely miss the point of a bunch of stuff if you play on a lower one, I feel.
 
Last edited:

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
The Data Angels fight for freedom of information. Mechanically they exploit OP research factions like University and Cybernetic Consciousness.
Unfortunately their faction quote is completely retarded. Peacekeepers already have the freedom of information faction quote. Data Angels' faction quote directly says that cheap adrenaline rushes from almost getting caught are more important. It really sells the Data Angels as a retarded faction. Mechanically they seem alright.

Cha Dawn's Cultists are fundamentalist terrorists that make Miriam "normal" in comparison. They also play very differently from Deidre; whereas you might imagine Deidre's Former plan involves lots of Forests, Cha Dawn would probably like to cover everything in Fungus (even though he doesn't get Deidre's nutrient bonus).
Cha Dawn is mechanically a native version of Santiago, except he also gets -1 economy to make Free Market economics worthless. His faction concept is just Gaians turned crazy eco-terrorists. And it's generally considered the weakest faction in the whole game. The best thing that can be said about Cha Dawn is that his faction does not have an AI imperative to take the Power value.

Free Drones represent the Drones. Like Angels, they represent a decentralized sovereignty that isn't present in the original 7.
They're the only faction which might thematically fit in with the original 7.

Pirates are a 3rd decentralized faction, and obviously play extremely different mechanically compared to the original 7.
Pirates are nothing more than naval juggernauts who start on water and will expand over the entire ocean if left unchecked. Trying to defeat pirates on their home turf is hell, where you are out-gunned (and if they already have marine detachment it gets much worse), and if you don't war with them expect the entire ocean to be dotted with pirate bases. It's bad balance. And the sheer theme of a random pirates of the 7 seas faction is also out of place.

Cybernetic Consciousness is flavorwise extremely different compared to University. Obviously this is the "Borg" for Star Trek. Mechanically they suit a hybrid strategy more than University, without University's policing problems. In fact, if anything they are more like Gaians with a better research bonus.
They're more like someone stapled the best part of the University (research) on the best part of Gaians (efficiency) with none of their disadvantages (low police, low probe, more drones, inability to run free market to cash in on superior efficiency). Their only penalty is a growth penalty which just makes pop booming more troublesome, but still very doable. Oh, and they don't get the free Network Nodes Zakharov gets. But for some reason they can steal techs just by conquering bases, which is also fairly nuts.

Deidre and Zharkov start with Centauri Ecology which is really the single best advantage in the game
Nope. Only Deirdre starts with Centauri Ecology. Zakharov starts with Information Networks.

As far as balance goes, the SMAX 5 are powerful but not more powerful than the best SMAC 7 factions. Deidre and Zharkov start with Centauri Ecology which is really the single best advantage in the game, and obviously Hive and Believers have OP advantages. The SMAX 5 are signficantly stronger than Morgan, Lal and Santiago but not stronger than the other 4.
I have no idea what you're smoking, but Pirates and Cyborgs are easily OP compared to the original 7. Free Drones is up for debate since their research penalty is counterbalanced by their ability to run Free Market while cashing in on a massive industry bonus, on top of their -1 drone in every base. Data Angels are fine. Cult is generally considered the worst faction of all 14.
 
Last edited:

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
Deidre and Zharkov start with Centauri Ecology which is really the single best advantage in the game
Nope. Only Deirdre starts with Centauri Ecology. Zakharov starts with Information Networks.

Zakharov starts with a free tech of his choice, hence he starts with Centauri Ecology.

As far as balance goes, the SMAX 5 are powerful but not more powerful than the best SMAC 7 factions. Deidre and Zharkov start with Centauri Ecology which is really the single best advantage in the game, and obviously Hive and Believers have OP advantages. The SMAX 5 are signficantly stronger than Morgan, Lal and Santiago but not stronger than the other 4.
I have no idea what you're smoking, but Pirates and Cyborgs are easily OP compared to the original 7. Free Drones is up for debate since their research penalty is counterbalanced by their ability to run Free Market while cashing in on a massive industry bonus, on top of their -1 drone in every base. Data Angels are fine. Cult is generally considered the worst faction of all 14.

Deidre: Starts with Centauri Ecology
Zakharov: Starts with Centauri Ecology
Yang: Does not start with Centauri Ecology but his other bonuses are nuts
Mirriam: Her bases support two extra units each so her starts are also nuts

Cha Dawn: Starts with Centauri Ecology

Aki: Does not start with Centauri Ecology
Sven: Does not start with Centauri Ecology
Roze: Does not start with Centauri Ecology
Domai: Does not start with Centauri Ecology

So the SMAX 5 are on par, not OP, compared to Deidre, Zak, Yang and Mirriam.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
From multiplayer experience.

Tiers:
Godly: Aliens.
Powerful: Gaians, University, Cyborgs, Hive, Drones
Normal: Believers, Peacekeepers, DataAngels
Who? Spartans, Planet Cult, Pirates

Meaning I can expect to hold a solid advantage while playing against a lower tier faction in a 1v1 game.

- Marr is better early game, but H'minee can pop-boom and will demolish him starting from mid-game.
- Morgan alternates wildly between the weakest and powerful depending on starting conditions and neighbours, but most of the time he is close to normal. Researching Wealth and spamming bases for 7 energy each is not to be underestimated. But you have to have a taste for that kind of game, or you won't be squeezing the maximum out of the faction.
- Cyborgs would be godly if it wasn't for -GROWTH that denies them pop-booming. Otherwise their stats are insane.
- Positive PLANET can get you quite an army, especially on the seas where an unprepared faction would lose a lot of their ships to IotDs. It is partly why Gaians and Caretakers rate so high. Planet Cult could sometimes be salvaged as a 'normal-tier' faction due to this, but its other stats are so pathetic that even that often does not save them.
- RESEARCH penalties can hit a faction hard, since there are technologies that are downright broken. Miriam is weighted down by this despite her huge SUPPORT bonus (that most often than not turns into a GROWTH/EFFIC bonus via Democracy). Hive suffers from this too, but with the stats it can get from Police/Planned/Wealth and casually deployed 70+ bases it can afford not to care about tech disparity once it gets going.
- The value of Pirates varies, but most of the time they are shit-tier. Sea bases are ridiculously underpowered compared to their land-based counterparts (no boreholes, extremely high unit costs - the formers and CPs are twice the price), and they have EFFIC penalties. They are mostly good for one thing - securing the jungle (or any other powerful landmark) and then building up there, not much different from a land-based faction. Their stats are terrible, but the jungle can offset that.

Centauri ecology is... not a big deal, honestly. It's normally 5-6 turns away for those factions what don't have it, unless we are talking Believers, Drones or Hive.
 
Last edited:

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
If you overestimate Cyborgs and underestimate Yang, Mirriam, Cha Dawn and/ or Domai:

It means you're too pussy to run fundy.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
What does Fundy have to do with anything?

And what does Fundy even do for Cha Dawn who runs on native life that can't be mind controlled anyway?
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
Social Psych means Cha Dawn has one of the prerequistes for Secrets of the Human Brain (and Fundy) already in hand.

So Cha Dawn's early tech position is actually amazing since he already has Ecology taken care of, 1 tech away (Biogenesis) from unlocking Secrets of the Human Brain and then to Planetary Networks to unlock probes and librarians.

Fundy's -2 research doesn't matter when Zak is your research bitch.
 
Last edited:

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
...it is a multiplayer ranking. Good luck relying on probes to do critically important research for you. And good luck delivering probes to their cities once they learn Air Power.

It does not work against players, and against AI... you know you have a lousy faction when you have to adapt your research speed to the one of AI.

The SoHB are overrated and in most cases are not worth pursuing before the techs that actually matter to the faction. Each tech you can't immediately use slows down your research speed, and using Fundy as soon as you learn it is suicide.
 
Last edited:

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
...it is a multiplayer ranking. Good luck relying on probes to do critically important research for you. And good luck delivering probes to their cities one they learn Air Power.

It does not work against players,

How do probes not work against players?

and against AI... you know you have a lousy faction when you have to adapt your research speed to the one of AI.

The SoHB are overrated and in most cases are not worth pursuing before the techs that actually matter to the faction. Each tech you can't immediately use slows down your research speed,

Which you don't care about when you are playing a fundy faction.

How is Secrets of the Human Brain a useless tech? It unlocks fundy and leads to Neural Grafting. It requires Biogenetics, which unlocks recycling tanks and leads to Gene Splicing.

and using Fundy as soon as you learn it is suicide.

Why would you do that?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
How do probes not work against players?
They do, they just require a lot of work and the success rate is much lower. More often than not the opponent will just destroy the probe or the transport.
The likelihood of sneaking in a probe decreases as time goes on, and once the planes start flying, it is almost a lost cause... or requires a lot of planning and preparation.

The games I played as Miriam, I mostly did my own research, ensuring that I can keep up or even top the researchers after the initial probings. You can't depend on others to provide you with critically important tech.

How is Secrets of the Human Brain a useless tech? It unlocks fundy and leads to Neural Grafting. It requires Biogenetics, which unlocks recycling tanks and leads to Gene Splicing.
The techs you care about are (for most factions): Impact (4-tier weapon), IndAuto, EcoEng, DocFlex (and possibly DocInit with IndAuto) and DocAir. Neural Grafting is not anywhere near critical paths (though it leads to MindMac, but that's midgame), and does little by itself. It is far from being a priority in the beginning of the game.
SotH are a prereq to CentEmpathy, but one does not usually go for it in the beginning either.

Why would you do that?
You wouldn't. That's the entire point. Fundy is only marginally useful in rare cases.
And if Fundy is not useful early game, then what would you rush SotH for?
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
Fundy is useful early game, just not the exact moment you learn it. You have to get probes first.

When you probe mid/ late game, it isn't to steal tech.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
If you rush Secrets of the Human Brain, you get a free tech. Not to mention Secrets of the Human Brain is a prereq for Centauri Empathy, so it opens up a fast Empath Guild. Also, not sure how well Data Angels fare in multiplayer given their heavy reliance on probe teams, to be honest. I think outside of probes their only advantage is that they get free techs if any 3 infiltrated factions already have it. Might open up some unorthodox tech paths for the Data Angels, not sure. As for Pirates, it's worth noting that all their bases start with free Pressure Domes (which are Recycling Tanks for naval bases). And while naval tiles don't get boreholes, they do benefit from SMAX facilities for +1 mineral from mining stations and +1 nutrient from kelp farms on top of the +1 mineral per shelf tile that Svensgaard enjoys. Plus you should be making boreholes out of land tiles anyway. That said, I barely play SMAX.

I wonder if anyone is working on the AI patch? From what I can tell you might be able to redeem Spartans a bit by worm-popping and running more formers once they use power values. In that case, I guess Spartans should intentionally trigger fungal blooms near well-armed bases.
 
Last edited:

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Are there interesting custom maps to download out there? Specially with custom number of factions ? I remember the original coming with a couple different maps with cool situations like "fight for the borehole" or something.

I'm coming back to the game after fixing my PC and would like to try new things. Perhaps pitching splinter factions against their fathers (Hive vs Drones, Morgan vs Angels, University vs Consciousnes, etc) on one 1 x 1 maps would be cool.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Haven't really fiddled with custom maps myself. If anyone has recommendations I'd be interested though.

If you guys want to make worms stronger vs market, change the Planet/psi value. I tried 20% and it was too much, through. Maybe 15% is ideal.
I don't think that's the right solution. If possible I would prefer to nerf Empath Song and Hypnotic Trance to 30% instead of 50% and apply planet score as a bonus/penalty to psi defense as well. That way anyone in market will have a much harder time staving off mind worms without making mind worm rushes ridiculous in general.
 
Last edited:

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
I think resonance weapons and armors in SMAX were a mistake. Either do Empath Song / Hypnotic Trance or do resonance weapons/armors, but don't do both. And while resonance arms are more effective against psi-units, they are terrible for conventional warfare, given their extra costs.

I'm also not sure what the current status is on the Children's Creche bug in SMAC/SMAX. kyrub, could you tell us what the situation is in your latest patch?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom