The Super BunnyHop Thread

[pippin]

I kept thinking of HR while he was pointing the short comings of MD. Especially the Rube Goldberg aspect, which is kind of bothersome in a way, because you just know you're going to enter a space to sneak. Kind of what you feel when you find those waist-high blocks in almost every cover based shooter. The ideological aspect was very weak in both games also. Somewhat preachy, and sometimes even retarded... I mean, why are augs racially different all of the sudden? Ignoring edginess, do we really think people who use glasses, mechanic limbs, wheelchairs or whatever to be "racially" different? I totally agree with him when the game and the story tell different tales when you're a walking death machine who is supposed to be "opressed". The same shit than Bioshock Infinite, Elizabeth would point out how terrible is to kill one person when you have spent 3 or 4 hours doing just that, and repeatedly. At least the previous game had the preachy aspect somewhat toned down, and the endings really make some degree of logical sense.

If Bunnyhop sounds misinformed or anything like that, well, maybe he is, but the source material, that is, this game, is really weak too, from what I can see. The AI finally feels more like a gimmick than anything else, and most of the problems present here are present in HR too. Even to the "hole in the story" detail, I can bet you 1000 dogecoins they are going to treat the game just like the previous one and release a piece of dlc designed to fill that hole. At least the DLC for HR was kinda interesting and somewhat of a challenge, even. I'm not really excited about this game but I think I'll buy it, not at full price of course.

It's not racial. It's the fact that they can snap at any moment and go on a killing spree. At least that is what the public believes.

Just like a biological cis white christian male, then?

 

[Alienman]

Right hehe. But the thing is that actually happened in the first game. All over the world, augs went nuts at the same time and tried to kill who was ever close them. It's goes beyond race, since augs can be of any race and creed. I would say the treatment of the augs in the game is justified.

 

[pippin]

It still seems a bit like a stretch because it was clear those augs went crazy because they were manipulated. I dunno, it just seems unnecesarily confusing just to appeal to the zeitgeist.

 

[Alienman]

Not sure the public knows the truth, just that they went nuts all of a sudden. Several pro-humanity groups used that incident to further their agenda as well. Then we have all the resentment from before the incident. The "good" augs was only for the rich since only they could afford them. So some classic class envy / gloat thrown into the mix. With bad augs, I mean the people that took loans and augmented themselves to become stronger and such, to be better at menial labor. That also create resentment with normals, since with augs you can work longer, and harder without getting tired.

 

[Somberlain]

Super Bunnyhop: 'Invisible War was a good game judging it by its own merits.'

He also called Pillars of Eternity a masterpiece.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Is it really that bad? How does it compare to say, Fallout 3 (for something of a similar genre from a different franchise) or the parade of dudebro multiplayer shooters and movie cash grabs?

 

[tormund]

Super Bunnyhop: 'Invisible War was a good game judging it by its own merits.'

I'm not sure what his background is on that. You'd be surprised, but people who played it on Xbox back then genuinely think that it was a great game.

It's better understood when you put it into perspective: Halo was still relatively new, and here with IW console-only gamers encountered dual analog controlled FPS that included multiple ways to tackle encounters, stealth, interactive dialogues, customization and had decent presentation. So you can see why someone who was at that point console-only gamer would think it a fresh and impressive game, and would keep defending it to this day.

 

[MediantSamuel]

I'm not sure what his background is on that. You'd be surprised, but people who played it on Xbox back then genuinely think that it was a great game.

I was a console tard back in my college days as all my friends were. I initially loved Fallout 3 because it was the best piece of shit on a piece of shit system.

Thankfully returned to my senses, though.

 

[Ash]

Some facts:

-Consoles had DX1, Morrowind, Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis before it, so IW was nothing new.
-Dual Analogue control had been a thing since 1997 or whatever.
-Open ended level design was very common in console games back then, for example Turok or Castlevania: SotN. Even by console standards IW was tiny.

Source: am/was both console gamer and PC gamer, like 99% of people growing up in the 90s (golden age) would have the sense to be. Today consoles are something to despise, while back then there was very little reason to aside from PC just being superior as always. The validity in despising consoles did begin to slowly change beginning with M$' shitty xbox and Halo combo, plus the PC dev sellout goldrush for xbox jewgold.

 

[Tito Anic]

I can't tell if it's my age showing, but modern aesthetics really bother me.

This. Cant play anything visualy "modern" beyond 2010(STALKER, New Vegas).

 

[tormund]

Some facts:

-Consoles had DX1, Morrowind, Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis before it, so IW was nothing new.
-Dual Analogue control had been a thing since 1997 or whatever.
-Open ended level design was very common in console games back then, for example Turok or Castlevania: SotN. Even by console standards IW was tiny.

Source: am/was both console gamer and PC gamer, like 99% of people growing up in the 90s (golden age) would have the sense to be. Today consoles are something to despise, while back then there was very little reason to aside from PC just being superior as always. The validity in despising consoles did begin to slowly change beginning with M$' shitty xbox and Halo combo, plus the PC dev sellout goldrush for xbox jewgold.

Deus Ex was available only on PS2, not on Xbox, and AFAIK console port wasn't widely played. Nowadays most people don't even remember that first game was even ported to console. Ultima Underworld console port/remake was released in Japan only and is a p obscure title, and Arx was a p niche title that was neither widely marketed nor did it sell well.
You might have had games with interconnected and open ended levels on consoles, FPSs even, but IW offered that IN COMBINATION with other stuff I mentioned.

I stand by Invisible War appearing like something new and unusual to console gamers at the time.

 

[Ash]

Statistics show Morrowind however was played by many console gamers. But yeah, if a gamer was not well informed at the time, PC or console, then IW may have been something special to them. Thankfully the game has mediocre scoring on Metacritic on both PC and Xbox.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/deus-ex-invisible-war

Critic: 80 User: 6.3

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/deus-ex-invisible-war

Critic: 84 User: 7.5

So slightly lower standards on console as you might expect, but overall people weren't blind to the fact it was mediocre.

 

[Ash]

Hmm, lets see how that shapes up to Mankind Divided. I'm aware Metacritic is never a completely accurate source for what game is good or bad, but it does have a story of some sort to tell, e.g gamer's standards of the time or how many bribes reviewers are taking.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/deus-ex-mankind-divided

Critic: 82 User: 5.8

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/deus-ex-mankind-divided

Critic: 83 User: 7.4

I have no idea what to make of that. Mankind Divided is IW all over again? Worse even? Or gamer's standards have risen? (lol yeah right). PC user surely is so low in part due to technical issues.

 

[KlauZ]

genuinely think that it was a great game.

But SBH never said that. No one ever said that. Why when someone says that IW is a good game, you see "IW is a great game on par with original"?

 

[tormund]

Better question would be where are YOU seeing that...
Argument was on why someone who played only on consoles could have been impressed by IW at the time.

 

[KlauZ]

HAVOK, Lighting, tons of story-wise CnC

 

[pippin]

The original Deus Ex had a rather good console port but it was quite overshadowed by the definitive pc version. In fact, most people remember the console port as a "rarity". They actually bothered to support a keyboard, iirc, which might explain why it was quickly forgotten- console gamers want things to be "plug and play" most of the times (which is weird considering how all consoles are moving into the pc way of doing things). I wouldn't be surprised if many people got iffed out about having to buy the extra thing just to play a game. IW and Thief 3 were both considered as breakthrough projects for the console market, and while people hated them at the time, I've seen a few people coming to their defense because they still aren't as bad as then future popamole, even though the writing was on the wall. In a way they are right, but those games are undeniably a letdown comparing them to the predecessors.

 

[lemon-lime]

Invisible War is a tragedy. Two of the biggest player complaints regarding original Deus Ex were invincible NPCs and not being able to choose sides (staying with UNATCO). Ion Storm rectified that in Invisible War, but in ways that were lacking grace. The amount of instances in which you talked to some NPC trough some unassaiable wall/window made it feel too contrived. And stylistically they fucked up the factions: No matter what you did and who you fucked over, they'd all come back to you, like some needy girlfriend with battered wife syndrome. It's OK to allow players to switch sides several times, but it should have been the player who initiated the step. Instead in IW the antagonized faction was spamming you constantly to do a job for them. That felt wrong and annoying.

The biggest gameplay problem was of course the tiny maps. Games that emphasize player expression need to give the player space to breathe and maneuver. Of course that was a technical limitation, due to the fucking Xbox's tiny amount of RAM. So at least there is some reason for that, as much as I hate that reason. (Oh boy, do I actively hate the whole Xbox brand.)

But IW also had stupid shit that lacks any kind of excuse/reason/motivation. For example being able to kill a visibly fully armored security guard with a single shotgun blast, while the drug dealer in plain clothes around the corner needed two shots from the same shotgun. That's bad design by giving misleading visual cues and it would have been completely avoidable. Another example: The environmental protection biomod didn't protect you against exploding robot enemies, despite said explosion showing the related fire damage icon. That icon told me: "Oh, if I want to melee these robots, I need to protect myself with the biomod, cool!" But nope, didn't work that way at all. At least on highest difficulty I died with the robot in its explosion, regardless of full health, maxed out protection and trying to get out of the blast radius. Again: annoying and misleading.

IW is full of such bullshit, that came in part by trying stuff, taking risks and failing (as Smith and Spector put it), but also in other parts is completely indefensible and (important to the bean counters) fixing it shouldn't have strained the game's budget.

 

[Infinitron]

Some facts:

-Consoles had DX1, Morrowind, Ultima Underworld and Arx Fatalis before it, so IW was nothing new.
-Dual Analogue control had been a thing since 1997 or whatever.
-Open ended level design was very common in console games back then, for example Turok or Castlevania: SotN. Even by console standards IW was tiny.

Source: am/was both console gamer and PC gamer, like 99% of people growing up in the 90s (golden age) would have the sense to be. Today consoles are something to despise, while back then there was very little reason to aside from PC just being superior as always. The validity in despising consoles did begin to slowly change beginning with M$' shitty xbox and Halo combo, plus the PC dev sellout goldrush for xbox jewgold.

Deus Ex was available only on PS2, not on Xbox, and AFAIK console port wasn't widely played. Nowadays most people don't even remember that first game was even ported to console. Ultima Underworld console port/remake was released in Japan only and is a p obscure title, and Arx was a p niche title that was neither widely marketed nor did it sell well.
You might have had games with interconnected and open ended levels on consoles, FPSs even, but IW offered that IN COMBINATION with other stuff I mentioned.

I stand by Invisible War appearing like something new and unusual to console gamers at the time.

What a coincidence - new video on the half-forgotten PS2 version of Deus Ex (and about Deus Ex in general):



He plugs Ash's mod, too.

 

[Ash]

Wow, a youtube game journo is informed for once. He (and his team probably) did a lot of research or was well-informed before the fact. Much respect.

 

[Infinitron]

Wow, a youtube game journo is informed for once. He did a lot of research or was well-informed before the fact. Much respect.

It's a Eurogamer-associated channel. This "DF Retro" series is relatively new, started in May: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLY9cZ8nX4xmlpd1RE8_toocbU9cND7U-A

 

[Ash]

Will sub. They went rather in-depth.

 

[pippin]

Ross from Accursed Farms did a video about Invisible War.

Pretty much the only thing he really likes is the ragdoll physics, which says a lot...

 

[Mozg]

I would listen to a crackhead modder's inane bullshit for like a week if they implemented ragdolls in DX1

 

[sullynathan]

Digital foundry is pretty good for all the tech stuff in games