Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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The New World Update #18

Discussion in 'Iron Tower Studio' started by Infinitron, Aug 23, 2017.

  1. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

    Infinitron
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  2. Jaedargender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    I assume reduced attack speed in first paragraph means reduced AP cost?

    Altered stat lines are interesting. One thing that always bugged me in AoD is how you basically need 8 ap to have a combat capable character (yes yes I'm sure you can make other builds but on a bang for your stat point level, dex > all for the first few points), but I wonder if this won't take it too far in the other direction.

    I guess it will come down to how good the perks are, and what requirements they have. But my gut feeling is that both strength and dex will be "worse" stats.
     
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  3. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    Yes.

    We've experimented with AoD and DR, increasing everyone's AP by 5, and it worked pretty well. I think Oscar even did a mod, so you can try and see for yourself.
     
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  4. Lurker Kinggender: ⚧ Self-Ejected The Real Fanboy

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    It seems that you won't implement any killer feats, but it would be a good idea that have a killer combo of feats according to certain builds, no? Even if this would break the combat system, it would still require the mastery of the system, etc. For instance, it would be interestanting to make a gunfighter with +75% chance to trigger a reaction attack, or at least allow certain combinations with items to achieve this result. I think that the combos you could make with your feats are more fun than the feats themselves.
     
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  5. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    That's the idea.
     
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  6. Trashosgender: ⚧ Savant

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    There is a similar perk (of the same name) in FO2, and I don't think anyone ever takes it. The point is that, while it may have real utility, it is as exciting as getting a life insurance in real life.

    Again, does not sound exciting, because it is very situational. I doubt anyone will take this unless there is nothing more exciting available.

    Sounds good!

    I like trade offs, sounds good!

    Sounds good!

    I agree with the idea that feats should not be overpowered, like some were in the Fallouts. However, they should still be exciting. Imo, this can be achieved in two ways:

    a) Feats that present interesting trade-offs. The "Gifted" trait was such in the Fallouts (although not well balanced). Your "Overclocked" feat is one too, and that's why I like it.

    b) Feats that support the vision that the player has for his build, ie a type of specialization. In the Fallouts, such perks were the ones that increased certain groups of skills (eg, there was a perk that improved the thieving skills, another improved the medical skills etc) or the famous sniper/slayer perks. However, it is hard to propose specific ideas on this without knowing the details of gameplay or the supported builds you have in mind.


    The Fallouts took the easy way out and offered some very overpowered perks. So of course everyone was always excited about receiving the next perk. You don't want to use the same cheap method, so I think serious time and thinking should be devoted to making the feats exciting as they should be. Judging by the examples you presented, it does not look like it's there yet.
     
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  7. Trashosgender: ⚧ Savant

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    Now that I think about it, the Feats that I called non-exciting above (Adrenaline Rush & Second Wind) would make interesting special abilities for the companions. Like Mazzy Fentan had that "Invoke Courage" special ability in BG2. "Invoke Courage" was nothing exciting as an ability, but still it was cool and appreciated that Mazzy had it.
     
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  8. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    Nobody takes it in Fallout because combat is very easy overall and there are very few fights where you're left with less than 5HP, which makes the feat useless. In AoD a situation where you're down to 3-5HP (and can use a booster) is quite common, hence the feat.

    In general I prefer situational perks that work for some characters (built to shine in certain situations or play a certain way) but not for everyone. This feat is for fast fighters with high AP (not just Dex but other feats too) and high CS.
     
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  9. Jaedargender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Except if you are down to 3-5 hp you are probably going to die next enemy turn either way, and if that +20% cs is going to save you, pretty much any other combat perk would likely have already won you the fight, due to being always on.

    Unless by booster you mean some form of hp restorative, but even then it seems very iffy.
     
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  10. Make America Great Again Eyestabbergender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    You might wanna raise the threshold to 10 HP. At 5 chances are you'll just drop dead without activating the feat.

    The STR change is mind boggling, tho. Why? STR as a multiplier like in aod was an easy and effective way of keeping the attribute useful and balanced for every ap cost of weapon. Multiplier treated all weapons equally, linear bonus will naturally favour low AP weapons which will then lead to something being given to slower weapons and so on. Band aids on top of bandaids, but ofc it CAN work. I just don't see why change a good system.

    More ap is good news and the feats might be interesting if they are used to support different playstyles. Stat prerequisite without lvl lock is huge :incline: and I'm gonna exploit the shit out of this system.
     
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  11. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    I won quite a few fights (in AoD) when I had 3-5HP left, managed to dodge/block attack and kill the 'almost dead' enemy. So for me it was a common situation and the purpose of the feat was to give you a chance to kill an enemy who isn't almost dead yet. So if anything I'd rather increase the bonus than the HP range but we will consider all options after the combat demo is released (and we'll always pay attention to your opinion in particular as you're a fighter of great renown).

    Personally, I dislike % and prefer fixed bonuses. The problem with fixed bonuses though is that they favor fast weapons (a 10% damage bonus to two-handed weapons might become a 50% bonus to a dagger, breaking all balance). That's why we switched to % at some point (iirc we still have fixed bonuses in the first demo), but it was never a perfect solution. Let's say you have a 20% bonus and your have a sword that does 7-10 points of damage. Let's say you roll 7. What's the difference between 10% and 20% bonus? Zero. If you roll 10, the difference is 1. If you have a dagger (3-6 points of damage), the difference is even harder to spot.

    Here the idea is that the avg player is well aware of the difference between a weapon that does 7-10 and a weapon that does 7-14 points of damage. Anyone who picked a two-handed axe 9-12 over a one handed axe 7-10 (or a power attack over normal attack) is well aware that potential damage does have value and is worth sacrificing 1AP to gain it. If I'm wrong, the combat demo will show it and we'll change it to % which won't take longer than 20 min.
     
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  12. IHaveHugeNickgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    So what do you guys think about Lenin and his seminal work, "The rise and fall of XIX-century bourgeoisie"?
     
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  13. Drowedgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    What? This perk sounds amazing, D:OS2 have a similar one and it feels almost too strong there.
     
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  14. AbounIgender: ⚧ Erudite Patron

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    Reading this makes me remember a particular fight in DR as a lone wolf. It was me against Marcus & his friends, and I only got 1 HP at the end of the fight, it was a 3vs1 end of fight.
    Of course, odds were with me, my opponents were poisoned and/or bleeding, but still, quite an epic/lucky day ;)
    [​IMG]
    ^^ 3 vs I
    [​IMG]
    ^^ then 2 vs I
    [​IMG]
    ^^ Marcus or I
    [​IMG]
    ^^ And the winner is...
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2017
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  15. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    :salute:
     
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  16. IHaveHugeNickgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Yeah I don't know wtf is he talking about. +AP on kill is incredibly powerful.
     
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  17. Tigranesgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I like the STR change in itself, because anything that enacts a qualitative as well as quantitative shift in how you play is welcome. I think the stickler is that most other attributes, notably DEX, still provides a linear and reliable increase, whereas STR now provides this increased variability. It's like increasing one stat to get a flat 10% bonus to damage, while with another stat you get a 10% chance to do double damage. That relative difference will need to be addressed.

    Less worried about that 5HP perk thing because it's probably going to work out with enough testing. I wonder even about an option where you get one guaranteed crit, but the HP threshold is very low...

    Edit: yeah, Second Wind doesn't sound great on paper but in DOS2 at least it's really great when you actually run with it.
     
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  18. Trashosgender: ⚧ Savant

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    OK, haven't played DOS2 yet, so I don't know how it works there. My line of thinking is the following:

    According to OP, AP is going to be 14-20. Second Wind gives +2AP on kill, which is an increase of 10-14% in AP on kill. If you get a kill every X turns on average, then the average AP increase from this feat is going to be from 10/X % to 14/X % throughout one playthrough.

    Of course, I don't know how often there is going to be a kill. Let's assume every 3 turns. In this case, the increase in AP throughout a playthrough is going to be 3.3%-4.7%. Sounds ridiculously low to me. If a kill is more rare than "every 3 turns", then the percentages are even lower. I don't know if I am missing something, but this sounds like a non-factor to me.
     
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  19. Vault Dwellergender: ⚧ Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

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    It's not a Diablo-like game so trying to estimate the effect via % like 3.3%-4.7% is pointless.
     
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  20. Jrpgfangender: ⚧ Learned

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    If those 2 AP are enough to warrant you an extra attack in the same turn, it might be worth it. Let's say you have 14 AP and two "strong attacks" cost 8 AP each, making you unable to use two in the same turn. If you kill your oponnent with one strong attack, you would be able to attack again in the same turn. So it really depends on the combat mechanics and how the encounters are gonna play out. Like VD said, you can't really estimate it based on percentage using the AP pool alone as a parameter.

    Let's say you have 3 characters with 14 ap each, one of them with strong wind, against two very strong oponnents that only take damage from strong attacks. Let's say it takes 3 strong attacks to kill one and 4 to kill the other. If you let your character with strong wind kill the one that dies with 3 attacks, he would be able to attack the other one in that same turn, meaning you could finish him in the next turn instead of two turns later. Depending on how strong those opponents are, that extra turn could mean the death of one of your characters or even the entire party.

    Another situation would be one where you have several squishy opponents that die with one strong attack but deal a lot of damage. With your character with second wind you'd be able to put two of them down a turn instead of only one. In this case after the two kills you'd still have some AP left that maybe could be used for taking cover, using some useful item etc... Again, depending on how that encounter would play out, it could make a big difference.

    Honestly, I can see it working very well on a character with high damage output.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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  21. Tigranesgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    You are missing something, which is that you're just playing with the lowest hanging numbers from the tree without thinking about how the tactical situation plays out.
     
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  22. Trashosgender: ⚧ Savant

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    I don't have much choice, do I? Also see my answer below.

    Yes, I understand (although I have never played Diablo). AP is not exactly DPS, and small changes in AP can lead to huge differences in outcome on occasion. On the other hand, how am I (or any player) to judge the usefulness of Second Wind? There are 2 ways, as far as I am concerned: Either apply the line of thinking that I did above for a raw calculation or judge it intuitively after several playthroughs, once I am already very experienced with the game.

    The first method of judgement leads to very underwhelming conclusions.
    The second method of judgement won't be available to anyone until several playthroughs later. Most players are going to be done with the game by the point they can intuitively weigh Second Wind.

    Do you see the problem here?

    Anyway, I am just giving my 2c.
     
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