Might and Magic The Might and Magic Discussion Thread

[Abelian]

i guess i'll give 1 a spin then, is there any reason to choose a version other than the DOS one?

Not really. The NES has nicer graphics, but if you're fine with the DOS version's simple graphics it shouldn't matter. See more detailed explanation here.

 

[Jaesun]

Sceptic

 

[Abelian]

Sceptic

the 'inns only' save system is not really enjoyable for me (I'm not oldschool enough I guess). Is anyone aware of software that allows save states in Dosbox?

Normally I'd say "tough it up noob!" but TBH if I were to replay MM1 now I probably wouldn't the patience to put up with the save system. So, yes, there is a way. Get this SVN build of DOSBox, which supports save states. (it also has a whole load of nice extras compared to vanilla DOSBox, including integrated Glide and MT-32 wrappers. I use it exclusively now)

Thinking of starting this series with Might and Magic 7

NO
Start with 3 if you cannot stomach 1. But don't start with 7.

My gaming time is really limited these days, I don't want to take a while working my way up to the best

I would've said 3, because that IS one of the best, but if you really must then do as Roxor says and play WOX. Then 6. And only if you want more move on to 7 (and 1, but I doubt you'll make it this far unless you end up with more free time).

 

[Charles-cgr]

Another factor is that MM1 doesn't have auto-map. MM2+ does.

Also the combat in MM1-2 is more tactical and with much more varied encounters than in MM3-5, which is the main reason why I personally favour the early M&Ms over MM3-5.

While as MMII does have a feature that qualifies as automap, I see it more as a tool that assists you in drawing your own, take notes on them, plot things of interest. A map with just walls and doors will only take you so far & if I recall you can only view the map of the area you are currently in, which quickly becomes a problem.

 

[Natreg]

Start with 1. Personally, graphics are not that bad. Exploration and gameplay are great. The only problem would be drawing maps, but that's also enjoyable for some people (me included).

As a few suggestions, if you create a party, make sure that your Wizard/archer have the highest speed, and your cleric/paladin the lowest. That way your wizard can defeat enemies at the start of combat easily, and if thins get complicated after the first turn, you can always heal with your cleric.

Also, Leather Skin, Bless and Sleep are your best friends at low levels
Don't get out of Sorpigal unless you are around level 3.
And stick with the PC version, that way you can import your characters into M&M2

 

[Watser]

Started with MM1, the game is quite intuitive, only thing I had to look up so far was item list because you'll have no idea if a large shield is better than a +1 small shield. I think the game's graphics are very charming, the locations may seem quite bland but I really enjoy the monster art.
You'll probably be very short on money to begin with. A trick to save money on food is to make some new characters, since they all start with +10 food and then trade it to your main party. Eventually you'll swim in money, but it really helps at the beginning.
Combat is fun and can be quite intense.

 

[SausageInYourFace]

bros what is the best place to start for a dumb faggot that definitely isnt me who has managed to never really play a M&M game before now? 1, III, Xeen?

I would say III, since I am a dumb faggot who has managed to never really play a M&M or any blobber before really, started with III myself, and absolutely loved it. The gameplay is really addictive and motivating, its easy to get into since the gameplay is uncomplicated, the combat is fast, the world is fun to explore, interesting and full of cool and often funny looking enemies.

 

[TigerKnee]

Apple version for 1 and 2 has mouse support I think, which might be nice? Of course it's more easy to get the DOS version because of GOG...

 

[Natreg]

Are you sure? I thought the only version with mouse support was the Mac one, not the Apple II one. But, that version is also in Black and White (at least the M&M1).

 

[TigerKnee]

Are you sure? I thought the only version with mouse support was the Mac one, not the Apple II one. But, that version is also in Black and White (at least the M&M1).

You're right, I don't know why I thought Macintosh with Apple II was the same thing. Durrr lore check fail.

M&M 1 on Mac is B&W but screenshots I've seen say that M&M 2 is in colour. I'm not really sure if M&M1's primitive graphics is improved through the addition of colour anyway and the keyboard only interface just slays me so...

 

[Abelian]

The only problem would be drawing maps, but that's also enjoyable for some people (me included).

I'm not sure if you're aware of the Grid Cartographer tool, but I'll include it anyway for people who might be interested.

 

[Humppaleka]

I love Grid Cartographer. Although I'm still lazy to map out games...

 

[Sceptic]

So much MM1 love

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that I recommend starting with 1. It's tough to get into some aspects of it, including the imbalance, the lack of automap and saving only at inns. I don't see the deal with graphics though - dungeon graphics are indeed wireframe+1, but the outdoors are actually pretty decent, including some ground textures in some areas, at least if you play in EGA (the CGA is quite fugly). As Abelian and Natreg have pointed out that highlight of the game is the exploration, and it's worth putting up with some of the limitations for this, especially since, aside from the imbalance, combat is the best in the series (possibly along with MM2, but that one has level scaling so it loses points in my book). Besides most of the limitations can be ignored with current tech - Grid Cartographer will give you easier mapmaking, and DOSBox save states will hugely mitigate the limited save system.

I recommend the DOS versions because they let you import, and because they're relatively bug-free (the Apple II version has some nasty bugs, especially in MM2). Also, there are no real advantages to the other versions as far as I can tell. SNES MM2 has prettier graphics, and NES MM1 is more balanced, but I don't like the interface in either. Mac version seems like it could be the most ergonomic but I never played it.

 

[Natreg]

Are you sure? I thought the only version with mouse support was the Mac one, not the Apple II one. But, that version is also in Black and White (at least the M&M1).

You're right, I don't know why I thought Macintosh with Apple II was the same thing. Durrr lore check fail.

M&M 1 on Mac is B&W but screenshots I've seen say that M&M 2 is in colour. I'm not really sure if M&M1's primitive graphics is improved through the addition of colour anyway and the keyboard only interface just slays me so...

Mouse interface is a good thing, but I think I feel better with keyboard controls. I do things faster that way. I tried M&M3 the other day and I was so used to the controls from M&M1 that I played using keyboard instead of mouse, to my surprise, it worked more or less exactly the same as M&M1 keyboard controls.

The only problem would be drawing maps, but that's also enjoyable for some people (me included).

I'm not sure if you're aware of the Grid Cartographer tool, but I'll include it anyway for people who might be interested.

I tried it a few weeks ago, but It feels wrong to me not to use a pencil and paper. I think I'm very old school for map software. I like having a notebook with maps and quest notes everywhere.

 

[TigerKnee]

(possibly along with MM2, but that one has level scaling so it loses points in my book).

Damn, I should have noticed this earlier.

Well, I tolerated it in Wiz 8...

 

[Sceptic]

I just realized everyone ignored Natreg's post.

I found the wizard Ranalou and he gave me a quest related to the prisoners in the castles. How should I approach this? I guess this quest has to do with alignment since I can free and torture them. My characters all have mixed alignments and I have avoided alignment changes the entire game. Does it matter that much if I free some and torture others?

I always end up forgetting how the alignment and Ranalou's quest work in MM1. I don't think doing the "wrong" thing will change your alignment, but IIRC you get more XP for doing the "right" thing (Good frees Good, Evil tortures Good, etc).

Also, regarding this quest, is Castle Doom doable at my current levels? I have been leaving that one for a while now, and I'm trying to decide which castle/dungeon I'm going to do next (the ones I still haven't explored: Castle Doom, Wizards Lair, the Stronghold that need the ruby whistle, the building of gold, the one that opens with the coral key, and the one that opens with the diamond key).

Doom might be doable, but it would make more sense to do some of the others first. You should be gathering clues on what's going on and what the MQ is, and why you need to go to Doom in the first place (it's a rather major part of the MQ). It's not essential, the game is VERY open-ended, but things will make more sense. Then again you could just do Doom for the prisoners and come back later for the MQ. Doom is tough, but it should be doable at your level if you're lucky.

 

[Humppaleka]

I just realized everyone ignored Natreg's post.

I found the wizard Ranalou and he gave me a quest related to the prisoners in the castles. How should I approach this? I guess this quest has to do with alignment since I can free and torture them. My characters all have mixed alignments and I have avoided alignment changes the entire game. Does it matter that much if I free some and torture others?

I always end up forgetting how the alignment and Ranalou's quest work in MM1. I don't think doing the "wrong" thing will change your alignment, but IIRC you get more XP for doing the "right" thing (Good frees Good, Evil tortures Good, etc).

The tricky part here is, if I have mixed alignment, is it the party leader that affects the outcome?

 

[Natreg]

I just realized everyone ignored Natreg's post.

Thanks for replying

I always end up forgetting how the alignment and Ranalou's quest work in MM1. I don't think doing the "wrong" thing will change your alignment, but IIRC you get more XP for doing the "right" thing (Good frees Good, Evil tortures Good, etc).

Well, then I'll do what the majority of my party will do.

Doom might be doable, but it would make more sense to do some of the others first. You should be gathering clues on what's going on and what the MQ is, and why you need to go to Doom in the first place (it's a rather major part of the MQ). It's not essential, the game is VERY open-ended, but things will make more sense. Then again you could just do Doom for the prisoners and come back later for the MQ. Doom is tough, but it should be doable at your level if you're lucky.

I have actually done the Wizard's Lair already and got the Okrim Ring as expected from there.
I'm getting clues here and there, but most of them are just bits and pieces like the silver messages from the castles and the gold messages from the dungeons. I still don't get how to interpret the silver messages, but the gold ones seem to be just words that need to be put in the right order.
I also got info from the crashsite in the desert, which make me suspect from Alamar (which I already did since I remember him from the world of xeen opening....)

My only missing encounter right now is the Dragon City (I managed to beat the demon conference).

I'll do next the Stronghold, building of gold and the coral cave on the volcano island. If that statue from Sorpigal was right, I will probably find both the items I need for Og here (I didn't find anything on all the other dungeons and I mapped them entirely).

 

[Luzur]

bros what is the best place to start for a dumb faggot that definitely isnt me who has managed to never really play a M&M game before now? 1, III, Xeen?

Hm.

Well, firstly, tell your...friend...that he is a faggot for not playing these games before, then secondly that he should start with MM1, 2 or 3.

 

[Sceptic]

The tricky part here is, if I have mixed alignment, is it the party leader that affects the outcome?

I think it's on a per-character basis, like with returning the artifacts of good/evil/neutral in MM3.

I'm getting clues here and there, but most of them are just bits and pieces like the silver messages from the castles and the gold messages from the dungeons. I still don't get how to interpret the silver messages, but the gold ones seem to be just words that need to be put in the right order.
I also got info from the crashsite in the desert, which make me suspect from Alamar (which I already did since I remember him from the world of xeen opening....)

There's a silver and a gold interleave, and you need them to figure out how the messages are put together to decode them. The gold decoded message pretty much spells out the MQ. IIRC both interleaves are in Doom, so now that I think of it doing Doom soon-ish might not be a bad idea, since you'll be able to decode the messages if you already have all the parts (all silvers are in castles so you should have them I think). The silver message isn't actually essential, it just tells you where all the stat-raising places are (and you can reset them in Dragadune to raise your stats again, so that's nice). Gold messages are IIRC all in dungeons, hence the usefulness of doing all the dungeons before messing with Doom and the endgame.

My only missing encounter right now is the Dragon City (I managed to beat the demon conference).
I'll do next the Stronghold, building of gold and the coral cave on the volcano island. If that statue from Sorpigal was right, I will probably find both the items I need for Og here (I didn't find anything on all the other dungeons and I mapped them entirely).

The statues don't lie, though someone in this game does lie to you
Dragon City is probably the toughest fight in the game.
One good way to do dungeons is to wait until one of the lords' quests sends you there. I think that between them they send you to every MQ dungeon.
There are several spots associated with Og. They're always marked with a checkered pattern. You don't need just the two items, you also need three clues to figure out the answer to the riddle. BTW the items are not in the volcano, though one of the clues is. You missed something if you didn't get anything in Wizard's Lair, one of the idols is there. Not all clues are underground either - one of them is outdoors. I'll provide more detailed hints if you're stumped.

Isn't this game awesome.

 

[Natreg]

There's a silver and a gold interleave, and you need them to figure out how the messages are put together to decode them. The gold decoded message pretty much spells out the MQ. IIRC both interleaves are in Doom, so now that I think of it doing Doom soon-ish might not be a bad idea, since you'll be able to decode the messages if you already have all the parts (all silvers are in castles so you should have them I think). The silver message isn't actually essential, it just tells you where all the stat-raising places are (and you can reset them in Dragadune to raise your stats again, so that's nice). Gold messages are IIRC all in dungeons, hence the usefulness of doing all the dungeons before messing with Doom and the endgame.

That's a bit dissapointing, I already got to all the places that have stat raises and found the clerics of the south. I usually redo the quest if I get erradicated.

The gold messages, I don't have them all yet. Working on that.

The statues don't lie, though someone in this game does lie to you
Dragon City is probably the toughest fight in the game.
One good way to do dungeons is to wait until one of the lords' quests sends you there. I think that between them they send you to every MQ dungeon.
There are several spots associated with Og. They're always marked with a checkered pattern. You don't need just the two items, you also need three clues to figure out the answer to the riddle. BTW the items are not in the volcano, though one of the clues is. You missed something if you didn't get anything in Wizard's Lair, one of the idols is there. Not all clues are underground either - one of them is outdoors. I'll provide more detailed hints if you're stumped.

Isn't this game awesome.

Well I didn't do that badly in Dragon City actually. Temple donations and wizard spell 7-4 do wonders as defense. If I manage to kill the devils, gold dragon and silver dragon quick enough the others shouldn't be a problem

I did that with the dungeons. I'm only missing the quests after the "riddle of the ruby", so I'm only missing the stronghold in which the minotaur lives. I haven't found anything that tells me to go to the building of gold though, and the only reference to that cave in the volcanic isles would probably be the statue of Gala.

I got the outdoors clue from C3 entering through C4. I think it was "the first part is female". I got it on my notes. I also found several checkered places specially in Dragadune.
The only thing I found in the Wizard's lair was two places with black and white Chekered wals. There was nothing there unless I had to search for it (which I usually don't since chest that are free of monsters don't need to be searched). If I have to search there I would like to find the clue that tells me that I should search there.

I also got the clue "the last part is the first" from Dragadune. so It seems I'm still missing a clue that no doubt is on one of the places I haven't visited yet.

I prefer no detailed information since I like to discover as much as possible by myself.

I still haven't visited: Stronghold, Volcano cave, Building of gold, Castle Doom, and 2 closed areas, one in the desert and one in the sea. I want to check if there is a "honest" way to go to them before using Etherialize. Maybe surrendering could work.

btw... Lord Hacker is a bit of a bastard.... if Alamar is not the villain, probably Hacker is... On the other hand, Alamar's quest is nowhere to be found (unless it's on the closed places).

 

[Sceptic]

I did that with the dungeons. I'm only missing the quests after the "riddle of the ruby", so I'm only missing the stronghold in which the minotaur lives. I haven't found anything that tells me to go to the building of gold though, and the only reference to that cave in the volcanic isles would probably be the statue of Gala.

Yeah you're right, I checked my notes and it doesn't seem all places are referred to. Still, doing the Lords' quests is a good way to explore the world, at least through the 7th quests. No point redoing them after this. And yes Hacker is an asshole, trying to get an 8th quest from him has a different reaction from the other Lords (save before you do it!)

The only thing I found in the Wizard's lair was two places with black and white Chekered wals. There was nothing there unless I had to search for it (which I usually don't

Oooooooooooooh boy.......

If I have to search there I would like to find the clue that tells me that I should search there.

The clue is in the fact that you're seeing a black and white checkered pattern.

Search in this game works a little strangely, in that some things you find without having to Search, but generally, if you step onto a tile and there's something about it, like a pattern, or a message, or anything remotely suspicious, Searching is a good idea. Sometimes you have to do something on that square and then Search, but the game never really tells you you should Search. In fact one of the major MQ items is obtained this way, and you may have missed it if you weren't searching (in fact a whole bunch of keys you have to Search to get.... and I think you have some of them already)

I also got the clue "the last part is the first" from Dragadune. so It seems I'm still missing a clue that no doubt is on one of the places I haven't visited yet.

Yes, and the idols. You should be able to find everything now though.

I prefer no detailed information since I like to discover as much as possible by myself.

I'm trying to keep it vague enough to only give you nudges or point out you missed something without spelling anything out. I hope this is helpful without spoling.

I still haven't visited: Stronghold, Volcano cave, Building of gold, Castle Doom, and 2 closed areas, one in the desert and one in the sea. I want to check if there is a "honest" way to go to them before using Etherialize. Maybe surrendering could work.

Which Stronghold, Warrior's or Minotaur's (in Raven Wood and Enchanted Forest, respectively)? Both have quests that send you there, so it's a good idea to have the quests before doing them. I'm guessing from your post you're only missing the Minotaur. As for those closed spaces, you have to keep in mind Etherealize IS an honest way to reach places in this game. In fact some (and IIRC those desert ones are among them) can only be reached by Etherealize or Teleport. MM2 has even more such spots.

On the other hand, Alamar's quest is nowhere to be found (unless it's on the closed places).

Isn't Remove Quest so handy?

 

[Natreg]

The clue is in the fact that you're seeing a black and white checkered pattern.

Search in this game works a little strangely, in that some things you find without having to Search, but generally, if you step onto a tile and there's something about it, like a pattern, or a message, or anything remotely suspicious, Searching is a good idea. Sometimes you have to do something on that square and then Search, but the game never really tells you you should Search. In fact one of the major MQ items is obtained this way, and you may have missed it if you weren't searching (in fact a whole bunch of keys you have to Search to get.... and I think you have some of them already)

Well, I wasn't expecting I had to search all those places... seems I have to check all my notes and see which places could be important and search them. Thankfully, checkered places weren't that common until I started mapping Dragadune.

I'm trying to keep it vague enough to only give you nudges or point out you missed something without spelling anything out. I hope this is helpful without spoling.

Yes, don't worry I appreciate all the hints
The game itself is actually not difficult, just time consuming. If I had the time I had when I was younger I'll probably be already playing World of Xeen.

One thing though, is that everyone says this game is unbalanced and needs a lot of grinding. I have actually not grinded much at all, and only a few encounters are way too much for my current level.
I think that people usually uses the maps on the net instead of mapping themselves and since they go a bit faster they don't find all the encounters you will find the "honest" way.
Also, when I map a place and get killed, I do return over my steps as If I haven't mapped the place yet (not checking all the secret passages though). So I probably get more encounters too doing things that way.

Which Stronghold, Warrior's or Minotaur's (in Raven Wood and Enchanted Forest, respectively)? Both have quests that send you there, so it's a good idea to have the quests before doing them. I'm guessing from your post you're only missing the Minotaur. As for those closed spaces, you have to keep in mind Etherealize IS an honest way to reach places in this game. In fact some (and IIRC those desert ones are among them) can only be reached by Etherealize or Teleport. MM2 has even more such spots.

I was refering to the Minotaur's Stronghold, but I actually did finish this part already, so I have already done all quests from the Lords.
I also tried the Volcano cave, but the Volcano God seems too much for me right now. I still have problems with enemies that use Erradication.
Seems my next stop will be the Gold Building, and the 2 closed outdoors areas I'm missing

Isn't Remove Quest so handy?

It is, but I'm gratefull that only the Lords quest are categorized this way. If Ihad to use Remove Quest for all other sub quests (climbing trees, Ranalous, Clerics of the South...) it would get very annoying.

 

[octavius]

One thing though, is that everyone says this game is unbalanced and needs a lot of grinding. I have actually not grinded much at all, and only a few encounters are way too much for my current level.
I think that people usually uses the maps on the net instead of mapping themselves and since they go a bit faster they don't find all the encounters you will find the "honest" way.
Also, when I map a place and get killed, I do return over my steps as If I haven't mapped the place yet (not checking all the secret passages though). So I probably get more encounters too doing things that way.

I like your playing style.
And I agree grinding is not really needed. Instead you need to know that some areas are more dangerous than others, so a good strategy is to retreat from an area if the monsters are too tough and try a different area instead.

 

[Luzur]

One thing though, is that everyone says this game is unbalanced and needs a lot of grinding. I have actually not grinded much at all, and only a few encounters are way too much for my current level.
I think that people usually uses the maps on the net instead of mapping themselves and since they go a bit faster they don't find all the encounters you will find the "honest" way.
Also, when I map a place and get killed, I do return over my steps as If I haven't mapped the place yet (not checking all the secret passages though). So I probably get more encounters too doing things that way.

I like your playing style.
And I agree grinding is not really needed. Instead you need to know that some areas are more dangerous than others, so a good strategy is to retreat from an area if the monsters are too tough and try a different area instead.

Someone posted a colorcoded map of MM1 once many years ago, with areas being colored by difficulty.