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Incline The List of Incline (Now with a poll)

Which of these games are you looking forward to? (multiple responses allowed)


  • Total voters
    547

Rake

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Sure they will. I'm sure she will like a couple of MOBAs...
I don't play MOBAs or any other competitive mulitplayer game.
You should. Chances are you would like them more than RPGs. With your whole gameplay blah blah blah,balance blah blah blah philosophy you would be right at home there.

But I am curious as to whether Roguey will be honest enough to admit it, if one of the other upcoming RPGs does turn out to be better than PE in some respects.
What!!!!!!!! Some shovelware developer doing a better job that the almighty Sawyer? Blasphemy!!!
 

Grunker

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tl;dr Don't argue with people who have set themselves up in an unfalsifiable position.

An extension of Sawyer when he says "all RPG systems are shit/all cRPGs get it wrong"? With no actual good RPGs, the "good RPG" becomes entirely hypothetical, and any argument you have for it will be supported via hypothesis. It's like the scientific method in reverse!
 

Rake

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tl;dr Don't argue with people who have set themselves up in an unfalsifiable position.

An extension of Sawyer when he says "all RPG systems are shit/all cRPGs get it wrong"? With no actual good RPGs, the "good RPG" becomes entirely hypothetical, and any argument you have for it will be supported via hypothesis. It's like the scientific method in reverse!
That actualy reminds me of the Codex :P
 

set

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Real life as a setting is pretty dull, but plenty of authors make works of art with it. A setting decides what themes and images you will use for your work, but it doesn't dicatte how you execute your ideas. I'd love to play a video game set in the US Congress, you know, the setting C-SPAN shines its cameras on? Maybe you play as a Senator and need to- well, that has nothign to do with the setting.

"Dullsville" is the idea that we have settings which contain over-used ideas and tropes, but Sawyer makes fun of the the solution to this by saying we're being 'edgy' by turning tropes on their heads.

If you don't want to turn tropes on their heads and don't want to execute traditional tropes well, then... what do you want to do? Someting "new"? Is there such a thing at this point? Sawyer should know we can reduce any elements of a story into such basic forms that they all resemble one another.

A setting probably has little to do with the worth or entertainment we extract from video games. It's all how you execute that setting.
 

skuphundaku

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Real life as a setting is pretty dull, but plenty of authors make works of art with it. A setting decides what themes and images you will use for your work, but it doesn't dicatte how you execute your ideas. I'd love to play a video game set in the US Congress, you know, the setting C-SPAN shines its cameras on? Maybe you play as a Senator and need to- well, that has nothign to do with the setting.

"Dullsville" is the idea that we have settings which contain over-used ideas and tropes, but Sawyer makes fun of the the solution to this by saying we're being 'edgy' by turning tropes on their heads.

If you don't want to turn tropes on their heads and don't want to execute traditional tropes well, then... what do you want to do? Someting "new"? Is there such a thing at this point? Sawyer should know we can reduce any elements of a story into such basic forms that they all resemble one another.

A setting probably has little to do with the worth or entertainment we extract from video games. It's all how you execute that setting.
What you need to know is that Sawyer is the One True God and Roguey is His Prophet... at least that's what Roguey thinks. All of Roguey's nonsense stems from this one idea. Once you are aware of that, you can tune it out because it's not worth it to kill your brain cells by trying to argue with a crazy person.
 

Roguey

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Now you're contradicting yourself (or rather, Sawyer is in that answer). Either setting doesn't matter much (in which case something qualifying as 'Dullsville' shouldn't be relevant), or it does matter, in which case it would be a weakness of Project Eternity.
That is, assuming you can divorce the setting from the story. The stories in fantasy RPG's typically encompass elements from the whole setting, companions from all the different races, etc.

As for traditional fantasy with a twist:
It's fantasy with its own voice. Josh Sawyer has been leading the charge with the world and race creation—at first glance, players will recognize archetypes and seemingly-familiar landscapes, but often, we just use that as a means to draw you in and let you begin to see the subtleties and differences.
I can't understand it for you. He's saying shallow premises lead to dull writing.

I think what Roguey means to say is that PE will be so good that it will still be THE BEST THING EVAR despite being Dullsville.
I think it might have interesting themes. Heart of Winter and Icewind Dale 2 took place in the Forgotten Realms and set up some interesting themes, but stopped short on account of being linear dungeon crawls.

But I am curious as to whether Roguey will be honest enough to admit it, if one of the other upcoming RPGs does turn out to be better than PE in some respects. Pre-release hype is one thing, but nobody likes a delusional fanboy who denies the facts in front of his face.
So far this is seeming very unlikely. When it comes to things I care about (combat, agency, writing, user friendly interface), PoE is likely going to blow the competition away.
 

tuluse

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Outside of combat, do you have reasons for believe Project Eternity will blow away InXile's projects?
 

Roguey

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Outside of combat, do you have reasons for believe Project Eternity will blow away InXile's projects?
Yes. Considering the two Wasteland videos
Amount of agency shown: Not much.
Quality of writing: Meh.
User friendly interface: Not that inventory. Maybe they've changed it since then?
 

Infinitron

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Outside of combat, do you have reasons for believe Project Eternity will blow away InXile's projects?
Yes. Considering the two Wasteland videos
Amount of agency shown: Not much.
Quality of writing: Meh.
User friendly interface: Not that inventory. Maybe they've changed it since then?

You've carefully ignored the other inXile project.
 

Roguey

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You've carefully ignored the other inXile project.
That's more of an unknown but considering it's a Torment sequel I doubt it has the agency I'm looking for, that novella McComb wrote didn't exactly wow me and it has Rothfuss and the YA-writing favoritism-beneficiary, and the UI will probably be as comparably inept as Wasteland 2's.
 

Infinitron

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That's more of an unknown but considering it's a Torment sequel I doubt it has the agency I'm looking for

:hmmm:
As opposed to a Baldur's Gate clone?!

I also think you're ignoring an important aspect of Wasteland 2 - the fact that it's classless. For a lot of RPG players, the flexibility that a classless system affords is an inherent advantage that W2 will have over the combat-focused class-based PE.

Even Sawyer thinks classless systems are more interesting, I think.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
By the way, Roguey, you never answered my question about whether PE will let you kill anyone. Wasteland 2 will!

Simply looking at the games' known design focuses, it seems unlikely to me that PE will outclass W2 in terms of C&C, although I'm sure Obsidian will do their best given the resources they have.
 

Roguey

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As opposed to a Baldur's Gate clone?!
PoE is not a BG clone.
I also think you're ignoring an important aspect of Wasteland 2 - the fact that it's classless. For a lot of RPG players, the flexibility that a classless system affords is an inherent advantage that W2 will have over the combat-focused class-based PE.

Even Sawyer thinks classless systems are more interesting, I think.
Classless systems are more homogenous and I don't find anything inherently special about them. Jeff Vogel's Exile and Avernum are classless and it didn't do them any favors. Shadowrun is classless and its character system is terribaaaaaaaaad. Classes in a party based game = good.

By the way, Roguey, you never answered my question about whether PE will let you kill anyone. Wasteland 2 will!

Simply looking at the games' known design focuses, it seems unlikely to me that PE will outclass W2 in terms of C&C, although I'm sure Obsidian will do their best given the resources they have.
Seems probable as it's a thing Josh cares about
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=24
Make the story about the character's choices, not NPC-driven narrative. Most designers like to think that all of the characters they write up are totally bitchin' and everyone who plays the game will love them to tears. This usually isn't the case, and you'll find people blowing large holes in the chests of your beloved NPCs. Let 'em, and let them roll with the consequences. Try to keep "game critical" characters to a minimum, and design scenarios (or even just tiny responses) to the slaying of fancy people. If Solosolo breaks Mayor McGraw's neck with his large, meaty hand, you don't have to write an emotional ten node tree in every townie's dialogue reacting to the situation. A simple set of floats based off of that condition is usually enough to make the player nod in satisfaction. "Wow, I can't believe Mayor McGraw is dead." "Please don't hurt me, Solosolo!" "Yeah, I never liked the mayor, anyway." Mission accomplished. And if that changes how the main story plays out, that's even better. People live to hear Ron Perlman's voice say things like, "Lost without Mayor McGraw to defend them, the people of Sleepy Oaks were crushed and scattered by the rebel Brotherhood Paladins!"
 

Infinitron

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Here it is: http://pedevtracker.azurewebsites.net/Post/View/30

Posted by J.E. Sawyer on 9/15/2013 9:59 PM
I think classes can be easier for players to "get" than a sea of potential skills/abilities/etc. With a lot of classless systems (especially really rules-intensive ones like GURPS), you may have to hunt around to figure out if you can build a certain character concept. Classes present you with rough character archetypes up front so it's easier to just drop in for newer players (IMO).

When I play, I prefer to use classless systems. However, in my experience with classless systems, I've still found that if tactical combat is "a thing" of the game, it needs to receive a lot of design attention so players can make use of it. GURPS pays a lot of attention to combat mechanics and leans more heavily on simulationism (albeit, sometimes in odd ways) so building a combat monster is not too difficult. However, a lot of the tactics for those combat monsters wind up looking pretty similar, so it doesn't necessarily encourage particularly diverse gameplay (again, IME, and GURPS is very large). In a game like Vampire, tactical combat really isn't "a thing" so having light rules doesn't matter that often IME.

Retrieved on: 9/16/2013 at 8:04 PM Source | Permalink

FNTVc.gif


Seems probable as it's a thing Josh cares about
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=24
Make the story about the character's choices, not NPC-driven narrative. Most designers like to think that all of the characters they write up are totally bitchin' and everyone who plays the game will love them to tears. This usually isn't the case, and you'll find people blowing large holes in the chests of your beloved NPCs. Let 'em, and let them roll with the consequences. Try to keep "game critical" characters to a minimum, and design scenarios (or even just tiny responses) to the slaying of fancy people. If Solosolo breaks Mayor McGraw's neck with his large, meaty hand, you don't have to write an emotional ten node tree in every townie's dialogue reacting to the situation. A simple set of floats based off of that condition is usually enough to make the player nod in satisfaction. "Wow, I can't believe Mayor McGraw is dead." "Please don't hurt me, Solosolo!" "Yeah, I never liked the mayor, anyway." Mission accomplished. And if that changes how the main story plays out, that's even better. People live to hear Ron Perlman's voice say things like, "Lost without Mayor McGraw to defend them, the people of Sleepy Oaks were crushed and scattered by the rebel Brotherhood Paladins!"

OK, but you do realize that one of these games' mantra is "the story, the setting and the tactical combat", and the other one's mantra is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity"? That should tell you something about how they're going to be.
 

Roguey

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Posted by J.E. Sawyer on 9/15/2013 9:59 PM
I think classes can be easier for players to "get" than a sea of potential skills/abilities/etc. With a lot of classless systems (especially really rules-intensive ones like GURPS), you may have to hunt around to figure out if you can build a certain character concept. Classes present you with rough character archetypes up front so it's easier to just drop in for newer players (IMO).

When I play, I prefer to use classless systems. However, in my experience with classless systems, I've still found that if tactical combat is "a thing" of the game, it needs to receive a lot of design attention so players can make use of it. GURPS pays a lot of attention to combat mechanics and leans more heavily on simulationism (albeit, sometimes in odd ways) so building a combat monster is not too difficult. However, a lot of the tactics for those combat monsters wind up looking pretty similar, so it doesn't necessarily encourage particularly diverse gameplay (again, IME, and GURPS is very large). In a game like Vampire, tactical combat really isn't "a thing" so having light rules doesn't matter that often IME.
Highlighted important portions and a reminder that BN said they're not focusing on combat as much as JA2 did.

OK, but you do realize that one of these games' mantra is "the story, the setting and the tactical combat", and the other one's mantra is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity"? That should tell you something about how they're going to be.
The article I linked to was written about Baldur's Gate 3.
 

Infinitron

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Highlighted important portions and a reminder that BN said they're not focusing on combat as much as JA2 did.

I don't care about the combat. It's a given that PE will have better/more complex combat than W2 in any case. Classless systems have other advantages, for example the ability to make a character who doesn't do combat at all, with the expectation that the game will support such builds to an extent. This is something that many RPG players like. There's a reason why Fallout is so popular, you know.

In general, ask yourself why some people like Fallout more than Baldur's Gate. It's very likely they will like Wasteland 2 more than PoE for the same reasons, although the differences are likely to be less extreme.

The article I linked to was written about Baldur's Gate 3.

Wasn't replying directly to the article.
 

Roguey

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Classless systems have other advantages, for example the ability to make a character who doesn't do combat at all, with the expectation that the game will support such builds to an extent. This is something that many RPG players like. There's a reason why Fallout is so popular, you know.
Building gimped characters/parties doesn't sound like fun to me.

In general, ask yourself why some people like Fallout more than Baldur's Gate. It's very likely they will like Wasteland 2 more than PoE for the same reasons, although the differences are likely to be less extreme.
I like Fallout because it gives me a lot more agency. Josh says he wants PoE to be comparable to Fallout in that regard. The reactivity I saw in the Wasteland 2 videos didn't amount to much.
 

Infinitron

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Building gimped characters/parties doesn't sound like fun to me.

I'm not talking just about you anymore, in case you haven't noticed.

Also
with the expectation that the game will support such builds to an extent

Since all classes in PE are proficient at combat, that means PE might not have certain types of non-combat content that W2 might have. Ditto Torment, even though Numenera does have classes. T:ToN will likely support pacifist playthroughs, which again is something that many RPG players value.

The reactivity I saw in the Wasteland 2 videos didn't amount to much.

Again, the motto of Wasteland 2 is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity". If you think Wasteland 2 won't exceed or at least match Eternity in its reactivity, that means you believe inXile is grossly incompetent and they're going to fail at what they say their entire game is about.

Wouldn't you prefer to be a bit more optimistic about a game you've paid good money for? :M
 

tuluse

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Again, the motto of Wasteland 2 is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity". If you think Wasteland 2 won't exceed or at least match Eternity in its reactivity, that means you believe inXile is grossly incompetent and they're going to fail at what they say their entire game is about.
Isn't Roguey on record for thinking every non-Sawyer designer is grossly incompetent?
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Again, the motto of Wasteland 2 is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity". If you think Wasteland 2 won't exceed or at least match Eternity in its reactivity, that means you believe inXile is grossly incompetent and they're going to fail at what they say their entire game is about.
Isn't Roguey on record for thinking every non-Sawyer designer is grossly incompetent?

Judging by the amount of time he/she devotes to whiteknighting for BioWare, no :smug:
 

Roguey

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I'm not talking just about you anymore, in case you haven't noticed
Josh Sawyer doesn't think most people find building gimped characters/parties fun. Hence the first paragraph of what you quoted.

Again, the motto of Wasteland 2 is "reactivity, reactivity, reactivity". If you think Wasteland 2 won't exceed or at least match Eternity in its reactivity, that means you believe inXile is grossly incompetent and they're going to fail at what they say their entire game is about.

Wouldn't you prefer to be a bit more optimistic about a game you've paid good money for? :M
Perhaps Gus Smedstad was right after all?

It'd be funny to me if it was full of the kind of reactivity we saw in the second video. Shoot that woman and her husband is scripted to immediately show up. Push a cart out of the mud and get a discount. Pass a check to avoid combat with guys at the front of an area. To compete with Fallout/Arcanum memories it has to do better than that. Fallout New Vegas did.

Judging by the amount of time he/she devotes to whiteknighting for BioWare, no :smug:
I think Bioware is full of incompetence. Unlike a lot of European developers, they actually do have something of a clue about what they're doing even if what they're doing is coddling bad players.

You should. Chances are you would like them more than RPGs. With your whole gameplay blah blah blah,balance blah blah blah philosophy you would be right at home there.
Forgot to respond to this. I don't like competing with people anymore or games that are really demanding when it comes to things like actions per minute.
 

Infinitron

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Josh Sawyer doesn't think most people find building gimped characters/parties fun. Hence the first paragraph of what you quoted.

Edited my post, read the rest.

It'd be funny to me if it was full of the kind of reactivity we saw in the second video. Shoot that woman and her husband is scripted to immediately show up. Push a cart out of the mud and get a discount. Pass a check to avoid combat with guys at the front of an area. To compete with Fallout/Arcanum memories it has to do better than that. Fallout New Vegas did.

They've explicitly promised long term reactivity, so it won't be just things like that.

(I also think people are being too edgy about that stuff. You can do stuff and get a reaction, how awful!)
 

Roguey

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Edited my post, read the rest.
I'm not seeing any amazing non-combat gameplay when it comes to Wasteland 2's other skills.

They've explicitly promised long term reactivity, so it won't be just things like that.
As an example of long-term reactivity they said that if you shoot a merchant you won't be able to buy things from them anymore.

(I also think people are being too edgy about that stuff. You can do stuff and get a reaction, how awful!)
It's funny because they kept hyping all the reactivity they had and then showcased rudimentary stuff that can be found in Bioware games. Plus the situation with the the sick woman and her husband was hamhanded.
 

Infinitron

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I'm not seeing any amazing non-combat gameplay when it comes to Wasteland 2's other skills.

Hurr durr, I haven't seen any gameplay at all from PE, guess it'll be an Icewind Dale clone like Vault Dweller says, amirite?

As an example of long-term reactivity they said that if you shoot a merchant you won't be able to buy things from them anymore.

That wasn't their example.
 

Roguey

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Hurr durr, I haven't seen any gameplay at all from PE, guess it'll be an Icewind Dale clone like Vault Dweller says, amirite?
I'm basing this on the non-combat skill descriptions. It's clear that combat is the core gameplay and nearly everything else supplements that.
 

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