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Icewind Dale The Icewind Dale Series Thread

MrMarbles

Cipher
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
438
In all seriousness, the inclusion of BG1 makes me faintly suspect you're trolling. I'm not one to defend IWD's plot (it's fine, but nothing to write home about), but the actual quality and thematic cohesion of writing in IWD beats the shit out of the generally amateur writing of BG1.

Things BG1 has in the writing department:

A "MUAHAHAHAHAING" villain featured in the opening of the game.

A poor young farm choir boy girl whatever forced (FORCED, I SAY, FORCED!) into events far beyond their control.

Gorion (Seriously; not only is he a shit step-father, but he's also the most incompetent fucking Harper ever).

Minsc (who admittedly had not yet reached full levels of derp).


I get why BG1 is considered a classic. It sucessfully marketed itself as "Forgotten Realms: Mary Sue You", and it demonstrated RTwP didn't have to be as shit as in every other RTwP game before it, but if you're holding it up as a highwater mark well... dude you need to play more better games.

I really don't understand why people criticise the writing in BG. The game had some issues, but if you want to harp on anything the writing should be way down the list.

When people say that the story in BG1 wasn't "told properly", maybe they were just too impatient to actually take in the information along the way, or watch the chapter transitions (like this one, which manages to be well written, superbly voiced, sums up past events, foreshadows both the path of the game AND the choice you make at the end of ToB without making anything obvious, and sets an epic tone without being chosen-one derpy).

I had watched a friend play and it was painful to see him just clicking past all the text and dialogue. Getting it secondhand from him felt like taking over the one true ring for safekeeping. He was the kind of player who today would say that the "pacing" of the game is wrong or some meaningless shit like that.

tl:dr
I fourth Edward Murrow:salute:
 
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vivec

Self-Ejected
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Oct 20, 2014
Messages
1,149
Replaying IWD 1 & 2:

Does anyone know is charisma and intelligence actually affect dialogues to give you questS in the two games? Can I safely dump these assuming they are not my character class attributes? Also, can anyone suggest what are the most useful skills in the IWD2 game?

Thanks in advance!
 

norolim

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
1,012
Location
Pawland
I read CHA does grant you a few inconsequntial dialogue options in IWD2, but you won't get any additional quests. I'm finishing a replay o IWD2 myself and I can confirm that. I have a bard/rogue with high CHA & Diplomacy in the second row, so sometimes, when the game forces me to talk to NPCs with my dumb fighter I reload and walk to the NPC with the bard. Once or twice I noticed a differene, but it had no meaningful effect on the game. Example: I once got some supplies form an NPC, I wouldn't normally get. So, to sum up, CHA grants some cosmetic additional options and alternative choices, but it's in no way necessary.

Don't remember how it works in IWD. My last playthrough of it was some 10 years ago.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,543
In IWD you get somet additional dialogues depending on your class/int/cha and they give you additional xp, though not some huge amount and they don't count as separate quests. Still nice flavour. Classes that have extra dialogues from the top of my head: bard, druid, priest, paladin. Now that I think of it, afair there is one paladin-specific dialogue that can give quite a lot exp, in that cave with frost giants.

IWD2 - who cares, don't play shit games.
 

kmonster

Augur
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
316
IWD2 is the IE game with the most checks for character stats/race/gender/class/skills, I felt a big difference soloing without a diplomat but no big quests will be cut off.

Read the skill descriptions and distribute the skills as you like, wizards without spellcraft are a bad idea but for the rest there are many options. It's pointless pumping up lockpick skills if you don't use them for example.
 
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Lonely Vazdru

Pimp my Title
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,659
Location
Agen
Can I safely dump these assuming they are not my character class attributes?!
Yes, the points are better spent elsewhere.
Also, can anyone suggest what are the most useful skills in the IWD2 game?
Rogue skills for rogues of course and "Concentration" for casters. "Knowledge arcana" for identification, social skills (bluff, intimidate, diplomacy) are useful on your speaker, "Use magic device" can be useful to read scrolls/use wands if you don't have enough spellcasters in your party. Having a character with high "Alchemy" comes in handy three times, and one with high "Wilderness lore" is a great plus in the Fell Wood.
 
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Wyrmlord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Messages
28,886
Was playing Icewind Dale 2.

I have a Druid that is something like 8/8/8/18/18/18, I believe.

Gave her all the miscellaneous skills - Animal Empathy, Alchemy,.etc.

When she hit level 5, I turned her into a wild boar, and she gains 2.5X her normal hitpoints instantly and her stats are now 15/10/17/18/18/18. And she starts using Animal Empathy on all the Malarite pets.

Pretty soon, there is an army of wild boars attacking all the Malarites, led by the wild boar polymorphed druid herself.

Fuck, I love Icewind Dale 2 so much!!!
 

Surf Solar

cannot into womynz
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
8,831
Was playing Icewind Dale 2.

I have a Druid that is something like 8/8/8/18/18/18, I believe.

Gave her all the miscellaneous skills - Animal Empathy, Alchemy,.etc.

When she hit level 5, I turned her into a wild boar, and she gains 2.5X her normal hitpoints instantly and her stats are now 15/10/17/18/18/18. And she starts using Animal Empathy on all the Malarite pets.

Pretty soon, there is an army of wild boars attacking all the Malarites, led by the wild boar polymorphed druid herself.

Fuck, I love Icewind Dale 2 so much!!!

What has this to do with the IWD:EE thread?
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,442
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Excellent IWD retrospective by PCGamesN's Jeremy Peel: http://www.pcgamesn.com/icewind-dal...orth-bracing-against-the-cold-in-icewind-dale

Looking Back: why it's still worth bracing against the cold in Icewind Dale

Icewind%20Dale%20enhanced%20edition%20review%20black%20isle%20bioware%20chris%20avellone%20beamdog%20trent%20ostner%20alskdnas.png

Icewind Dale was Black Isle’s attempt to bash out a quick action RPG in Baldur's Gate's Infinity Engine. Because they were the studio who'd built Fallout, however, they failed miserably: accidentally making a coherent world of Faerun's northern wastes, and filling its dungeons with tangled networks of tactical battles.

It’s still one of the best mistakes you can play on the PC today.

On paper, Icewind Dale was certainly a less ambitious prospect than Baldur’s Gate. Where BioWare’s first RPG had stitched its isometric maps together into a patchwork open world, Black Isle designed a largely linear run through a set series of dungeons. The player would return between each escapade to the same town to restock on potions and buy new spell scrolls. And that was about it.

But Icewind Dale was the product of a development team enjoying themselves, and it showed. Though Dragon Age mimics its overhead tactical camera, Icewind Dale’s battles are superior - the kind of encounters only designers who know their combat engine inside-out can muster.

Icewind%20Dale%20enhanced%20edition%20review%20black%20isle%20bioware%20chris%20avellone%20beamdog%20trent%20ostner%203%20alskdnas.png


Black Isle had come straight from helping out on Baldur’s Gate, and knew what made its real-time implementation of D&D tick: it was fast and satisfying, enlivened by screen-shaking critical hits - but a thwack of the space bar paused the chaos and made it a thoughtful affair.

Trent Oster, the lead on Icewind Dale’s Enhanced Edition, describes the game’s battles as “combat puzzles”: scuffles with suicide skeleton warriors who explode in shards of ice when popped with a well-placed arrow; trolls who need to be finished off with fire damage; and the lizard priests backing them up, acting out complicated spellcasting routines that could scupper the player’s advance if left undealt with.

Last year’s Enhanced Edition comes with a Story Mode that’ll let you plough through these fights like so much snow, but on normal difficulty you’ll need to concentrate. Some areas recall Doom and its monster closets - trapping the party into situations beyond their comfort spells and formations and forcing them to work out a plan for survival.

The toughest battles are an exercise in intense micromanagement - prioritising enemies, interrupting spells, countering clouds of suffocating gas, and never letting your hand move more than an inch away from that space bar.

Changing enemy types and scenarios mean there’s no falling into a favoured technique either - the area-of-effect spells that cleared the room when you were level five can only do half the job at level ten.

Good preparation helps. A scripting system similar to that in the upcoming Battlefleet Gothic: Armada allows players to customise the behaviour of each party member down to the smallest detail. Want your wizard to pull the cord on that self-destructive fireball once their health drops below ten percent? You can do that.

Icewind%20Dale%20enhanced%20edition%20review%20black%20isle%20bioware%20chris%20avellone%20beamdog%20trent%20ostner%201%20alskdnas.png


Icewind Dale’s fiction might have it that six adventurers roll up to a cave and spend a long night ridding the place of its pests, but the reality is much more methodical: many of its fights are designed with the intent that you be slaughtered in seconds, have a long think about how to counter the status effects you’ve been pummelled with, and return after reshuffling your spellbook.

There’s a huge catalogue of D&D spells to pick from - far more than would sensibly be designed and implemented in the average digital RPG. It’s a tactician’s dream: for every tricky situation, there’s bound to be the perfect hex awaiting the player patient enough to trawl through the descriptions. Icewind Dale turns magic into the academic pursuit always implied by the bookkeeping and solitary lifestyle.

The dungeons are exquisitely gruelling. Perhaps more than in any other Western RPG, they capture the Tolkien-like process by which a party of near-strangers enters the maw of a mountainside and emerges, some days later, as an exhausted but hardened unit.

One dungeon in particular goes several levels down, uncloaking deeper and more dangerous depravities as it goes on and on. Once you step blinking back into the snow, it’s as if each goblin arrow has chipped away at your stoney adventurers, gradually revealing them for who they are. By the end of the game, you’ll have a walking, talking Testudo formation with stats and skills to covers for each others’ failings.

Two years later, Black Isle would release Icewind Dale II. If anything it was misnamed - taking its players away from the ice for what Avellone calls a “Forgotten Realms world tour”.

But this first game was about as grounded as RPGs get. While the plot does eventually spiral into an inter-dimensional grudge match, it never leaves the Ten Towns - the frozen region in the north of Faerun.

The sense of locality yields some wonderfully subtle world-building. The starting town alone, Easthaven, manages to pack subsistence, stoicism, religion and the stench of drying fish into an isometric drawing.

Later, in an extended bout of forensic storytelling, you get to pick through a Elven stronghold that fell tragically after the breakdown of its relationship with its dwarven allies. And then you'll traipse through the dwarven city and uncover their side of the story of how things went wrong. It’s like trudging through an epic poem punctuated by punch-ups with spectral orcs.

Icewind%20Dale%20enhanced%20edition%20review%20black%20isle%20bioware%20chris%20avellone%20beamdog%20trent%20ostner%202%20alskdnas.png


Icewind Dale also remains to my knowledge the only RPG in which you can have an argument with a skeleton about the problem of proactive foreign policy.

Tasked with finding the source of a warmth-quenching power that threatens to strangle civilisation in the Dale, you’re reduced to cracking open the crypts of known ancient evils in the area. More than once, your tenuous lines of inquiry end with a ticking off from an especially animated undead warrior about the audacity of storming into a tomb under false pretences. If its release date didn’t say different, I’d be convinced Icewind Dale was an allegory about the search for WMDs.

Despite the game’s overt combat focus, Black Isle clearly took role-playing very seriously in everything they did. Memorably, one map in the game can be turned from a dialogue hub to a wholly hostile area if you happen to have a paladin leading the party.

And the six-person character creation process is, while demanding, everything a D&D fan wants. It presents an opportunity not only for unstoppable combinations of multi-classed killers, but also high-concept parties. If you’ve an imagination like Chris Avellone’s, perhaps all six will be red-robed wizards of Thay, unearthing powerful artefacts in the elven ruins around the Ten Towns. Or maybe the two bringing up the rear are slavers, and the rest their unwilling dragon-fodder.

There are dark patches in Icewind Dale’s otherwise gleaming white landscape. The idea of failing the dice roll to learn a spell and spending the rest of the game without it is likely to offend modern sensibilities. And there are at least a couple of cruel difficulty spikes: bosses only touchable with +3 weapons, and no in-game guide to explain as much. There’s no doubt that this is a game most-enjoyed by those who’ve already played another one, Baldur’s Gate. And that’s one time-consuming entry requirement.

But the new Enhanced Edition pulls in all the class and race options from Beamdog's other updated RPGs, turns once-broken multiplayer into convincing co-op, and blows up the game's maps to the highest resolutions - where the tangible cold of the Dale can be properly appreciated.

It’s a game that should have been simple, throwaway and quickly forgotten. But Black Isle simply didn’t have it in ‘em.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,442
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You're getting a bit weird about Beamdog, Tigranes

The article consists almost entirely of praise for Black Isle. If that helps the EE's bottom line, well, what can you do?
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
EE screenshots, Oster quotes... I just think it's a shame, because potential players should be made aware of both options and then make the decision, instead of feeling they're missing out on the 'better' game if they don't get the EE.

Anyway, yes, it is nice to have some nice words for IWD. It's probably the 'simplest' of all the IE games, lacking a lot of the engine refinements and the most focused in scope, but I think it remains very well paced in every aspect.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
trolls who need to be finished off with fire damage

Or acid or poison, or chunked under Confusion (vets will know what I mean).

Though Dragon Age mimics its overhead tactical camera, Icewind Dale’s battles are superior

Rotational and zoomable 3d doesn't mimic isometric, it leaves it in the dust.

allows players to customise the behaviour of each party member down to the smallest detail.

IF THEN END? why do you lie? Or does EE have something superior to DA:O's conditional tactical framework now? :roll:

If you've an imagination like Chris Avellone’s, perhaps all six will be red-robed wizards of Thay

There aren't enough spells scrolls to go around for two wizards, let alone six. Or is that another "enhancement" of EE?

I enjoyed reading this retrospective as I woke up and took my first sip of coffee this morning, but he didn't say anything others haven't already said, and loooong ago..
 
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Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
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Oct 19, 2009
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Location
Copenhagen
Rotational and zoomable 3d doesn't mimic isometric, it leaves it in the dust.

:what::what::what::what::what::what:

I enjoy me some DA:O as much as the next guy, but when you wrote down that sentence I felt a disturbance in the force, like a thousand racofers cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
I enjoy me some DA:O as much as the next guy, but when you wrote down that sentence I felt a disturbance in the force, like a thousand racofers cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced

You should play DA:O modded with RAVAge and Faster Combat, the tactical superiority of Origins widens pretty hugely... I enjoy the old 2d isometric games, but I think being able to rotate and zoom an overhead view enhances them. There's nothin blasphemous there is there - ever played Silent Storm?
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
It's OK, we can talk about IE games again when the guy who is exclusively only here to say why IE games suck arse but he is still better at it than everybody goes away.

To follow up on my recent Insane 4-party playthrough, I found that on insane a well equipped party souped up on Haste and some protective measures was far more efficient and less risky than other options. By HOW I got a bit bored of that. You could try and get saves down to have some of the high-power disabling spells in, or even to throw some of the big fun AOE spells, etc., but it was simply more efficient in most cases to let your guys smash things, maybe throw in a few summons also drugged up on Haste as distractors. When you can beat down one creature every turn or two then the mechanics favour the brute force approach.

Going through BGT with SCS now, but if I go to IWD2 I might just try the solo or even 2-man option, though I predict a lot of running around in the opening chapter.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
To follow up on my recent Insane 4-party playthrough, I found that on insane a well equipped party souped up on Haste and some protective measures was far more efficient and less risky than other options.

I soloed IWD with a Fighter/Mage dual-class. Do you have any idea how I could have done it?

but if I go to IWD2 I might just try the solo or even 2-man option, though I predict a lot of running around in the opening chapter.

Why do you predict that?
 
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Self-Ejected

IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
trolls who need to be finished off with fire damage

Or acid or poison, or chunked under Confusion (vets will know what I mean).

You can also disintegrate them 2-ways which, with the first method, doesn't require any special tools except exceptional patience. You can disintegrate them firstly by getting a critical hit that goes significantly above and beyond what life they have left, a standard disintegrate death, and, secondly you could be lucky enough to be carrying a weapon of Turn To Ice which has the same effect but is not based on criticals but is instead based on a percentage chance each time you hit, hitting a frozen object disintegrates it. I disintegrated Yxunomei in two seconds once with such a weapon. I still have the screenshot somewhere...

obliteration_zpsfcrnxmnn.png


The yellow circle is where she was standing trying to cast something and those rocks flying about are were her. The dead character you see on my character list is a rogue I created just at this point to disable the traps around Yxunomei's door, you can get a rogue up to about 50% trap skill just from creating a new one for the circumstance - like a bit of contract work...

This particular weapon was a random drop (chest), though I can't remember exactly where from at this moment but I think it was in the Temple, so good for Dragon's Eye. It's a mean looking beast as well:

Sword2_zpsqxa50xhc.png


And is called:

Sword3_zpsaopfnuga.png


The Awesome of what it looks like as you carry it about:

Sword1_zps0ymudmuf.png


(you can tell this was a big deal for me can't you...)

And you can dispose of Trolls this way quite easily, but just a little patience as I remember doing it to a load of trolls to test it out :)
 

Apexeon

Arcane
Joined
Nov 10, 2012
Messages
864
Rotational and zoomable 3d doesn't mimic isometric, it leaves it in the dust.

QUOTE]

Spoken like a person who has never run a art departments budget.
Fixed 2D isometric art cuts the cost of a Crpg game down by a metric ton.
Once that camera moves the budget moves. The disease called the 3D engine is the source of decline.

Pillars of Eternity only required a team of about 30 vs about 90 for Fallout NV.
Pillars of Eternity looks 100 times better then the brown stain on the screen called Fallout 3.

Brain Fargo has locked his camera down for Torment. Now look at this vs Wastelands 2.
I rest my case.

 

VentilatorOfDoom

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
8,600
Location
Deutschland
The disease called the 3D engine is the source of decline.

You really can't stress this enough. Although it's probably not the only source.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,432
3D isometric games usually look really ugly to boot (see Wasteland 2, that game looked outright disgusting compared to the 2D games released last year), and normally feature both terrible and boring gameplay.
 

crawlkill

Kill all boxed game owners. Kill! Kill!
Joined
May 9, 2012
Messages
674
EE screenshots, Oster quotes... I just think it's a shame, because potential players should be made aware of both options and then make the decision

we should put a sticker on all EE games stating that they're only a theory!!! creationism in the classroom!

come the fuck on. there's nothing -wrong- with the EEs. there's just not a whole lot right about them. apart from the launch bugs and the marginal price difference on what are already cheap games, there's no real reason to pick the originals over the EEs. there are reasons to be cynical about Beamdog, yes, but they really don't apply to the wider public. people who are buying these games who "should be made aware of both options" don't give any kind of fucks about whether or not the EEs are a cynical cashgrab, and they're not served by your rage.
 

Cosmo

Arcane
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
1,387
Project: Eternity
The disease called the 3D engine is the source of decline.

The problem of 3D is not 3D itself, but the fact that it makes you a slave to graphical presentation, especially if we're talking about first-person. It creates the expectation that EVERY interaction, every micro-event will have to be expressed visually : no more "fiddling" generic animation like in the first Fallouts, and no more awesome paragraphs like in Torment.
That's why i personnally think isometric presentation is the best, because of the perfect equilibrium between writing, visuals and gameplay, which creates a space where everyone of those elements can be masterfully crafted without ever infringing on the others. And visuals in particular can be a strong selling point (think IWD 1 and 2), and yet the view is far enough from the action that it still allows a place for abstraction.
 
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