The Eye of the Beholder Thread

[dragonbait]

By the way, if you extract file OUTTAKE.CPS from "archive" EOBDATA3.PAK, you can find not used in the game image of Dwarf King.

I'm curious as to how to extract a .pak file as archive manager, 7zip, and winrar are not able to extract .pak files. + changing .pak to .zip prior to extraction does not work either.

 

[Fowyr]

I'm curious as to how to extract a .pak file as archive manager, 7zip, and winrar are not able to extract .pak files. + changing .pak to .zip prior to extraction does not work either.

It was their own format, used in many other Westwood games. Quick search:
http://forum.dune2k.com/topic/19752-list-of-dune-ii-editing-tools/

 

[dragonbait]

Thanks for the link. Westpak 2 v.0.68a is good.

Oh yes, I see the dwarf king.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I don't remember seeing Aruman holding up his axe like that either.

 

[Delmair]

Nice thread!!
Excellent advice Unkillable Cat, seem that you know perfectly the saga of this RPG game...
But since I'm crazy and a perfectionist, I wanted to create a custom NPC: Drizzt Do´Urden!
Exactly the most famous drow of the Forgotten Realms! (if you do not know who it is before answering foolishly, read here!)
Below are some screenshots to see what about I'm talking...

http://imageshack.us/f/441/screen0s.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/823/screen1yq.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/14/screen2cn.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/109/screen3uxj.jpg/

 

[Sceptic]

 

[Delmair]

Nice thread!!
Excellent advice Unkillable Cat, seem that you know perfectly the saga of this RPG game...
But since I'm crazy and a perfectionist, I wanted to create a custom NPC: Drizzt Do´Urden!
Exactly the most famous drow of the Forgotten Realms! (if you do not know who it is before answering foolishly, read here!)
Below are some screenshots to see what about I'm talking...

http://imageshack.us/f/441/screen0s.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/823/screen1yq.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/14/screen2cn.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/109/screen3uxj.jpg/

I modified the San-Raal portrait (the only drow of all the series!) and I've equipped him with the following items:

- Curved Short Sword +3 (from EOB I)
- Second Curved Short Sword +3 (from EOB II)
- Chainmail (the only armor more similar to Mithril Chainmail +4 that he should have, moreover being a Ranger allows him to haven't malus using the secondary weapon)
- Drow Bracers of Protection +5 (from EOB II)
- Ring of Protection +3 (from EOB I)
- Ring of Feather Fall
- Drow Boots

 

[Unkillable Cat]

AFAIK, no one has tried to modify NPCs in the EOB games. Some Russian dudes made an unofficial V1.9 release of EOB1 which fixes tons of bugs, of which some were NPC-related, but they never went so far as to completely change a NPC like you have. Nice one. And I think it's fair to point out, while the game says that San-Raal is a Drow, I'll bet you money that it means nothing game-wise. To the game he's just another Elf. So no cool Drow abilities for Driizzt, but I do wonder what his Armour Class is with a Dex of 20. I'm also kinda puzzled at his Strength stat, 13/00.

Have you done anything more to change any of the EOB games?

 

[Delmair]

Yes, I downloaded the unofficial version of the EOB I v1.9 and I saw that is substantially equal to the v1.7 with some improvements and completion of the dungeons in the hidden sections and the discovery of some items don't coincide always with the solutions/walkthrough of the original game.

About the drows argument, EOB being a simplified game, basically a drow is a dark elf but always elven race.
With 20 in Dex he have a base of AC 5 and testing the character in game I thought it right to increase the strength bonus to hit (13/100), because with only 13 he give a damage of 9 maximum (a bit low) and now give a significant damage with two attacks per round!
Modified the portrait wasn't a easy work but with the EOB II color palette the portrait don't change in tone level by level that are different.
If you want I'll explain you how to proceed...

 

[Delmair]

Have you done anything more to change any of the EOB games?

I'm not a programmer and I understand little of languages ​​used to compile the old games in 16 bit.
I'm especially a player of old games and what I change often with the purpose to make the game more attractive (even graphically).
I spent many days to figure out how to change the portraits in the EOB I and when finally I succeeded, discovered that the color palette of the game don't support all the colors of image portraits! So it wasn't possible to insert a portrait of Dungeon Hack (for example) because the result was that when the game used a different palette (as in the dungeons of giant spiders) the portraits were botched really sad to see!
The only change I could do was create a Paladin in my start party and put the portrait of Behoram in its place. To do this I modified with a HEX editor my save file in the section that regard my Paladin, changing the bytes expressed in a series of hexadecimal numbers.
In EOB II think that it's possible insert new portraits but I should try and test if it's graphically good.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I think the reason for the colour problems with the portraits is because EOB1 and EOB2 were only programmed with the Amiga colour palette in mind, which means 32 colours max. EOB3 and Dungeon Hack were PC-exclusive, so they could use 256 colours (or more).

EOB3 has more 'custom races', but none of the rules to support them. Sprite the NPC, for example, is supposed to be only 6 inches tall, but yet you can cram his backpack full of things like greatswords and longbows.

I like your idea of changing San-Raal because he has a very limited usage in EOB2. He is a very weak and vulnerable Mage which needed to have something special to make him worthwhile.

 

[Gregz]

EOB2

Dwarf Fighter
Dwarf Fighter
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage

You will later pick up a Dwarf Cleric, and an Elven Mage.

The front two characters serve as a shield wall, as long as they are alive nothing can touch whoever is behind them in melee. So you give them full plate, helms, shields, etc. If one cleric goes down for whatever reason you have a backup, but most importantly and essentially...DnD almost *always* boils down to how many fireball spells you have at the ready, so this setup revolves entirely around having two mages (3 after picking up the NPC).

My current Cleric/Mage duo are 7/7 w/ 18 INT each giving them two fireball spells each, or 4 6d7 AOE spells total. That's massive burst damage that I use to soften/annihilate enemy packs (they are always in packs, like Dungeon Master). If any survive, my melee guys finish them off while the mages cast magic missile at the darkness!

 

[Delmair]

The front two characters serve as a shield wall, as long as they are alive nothing can touch whoever is behind them in melee.

This is not completely true! The Frost Giants can hit any characters of the party with a fist melee attack!

And what do you think about my drow??

 

[DemonKing]

I just had fun picking up NPCs and casting raise dead on the various bones you can find in the games and finished the 3rd game with a party completely different to the one I started with.

EOB2 was one of my favourite games of all time with EOB second and EOB3 third (alhough I thought even that was decent once you got past the annoying initial areas).

 

[Unkillable Cat]

EOB2

Dwarf Fighter
Dwarf Fighter
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage

You will later pick up a Dwarf Cleric, and an Elven Mage.

The front two characters serve as a shield wall, as long as they are alive nothing can touch whoever is behind them in melee. So you give them full plate, helms, shields, etc. If one cleric goes down for whatever reason you have a backup, but most importantly and essentially...DnD almost *always* boils down to how many fireball spells you have at the ready, so this setup revolves entirely around having two mages (3 after picking up the NPC).

My current Cleric/Mage duo are 7/7 w/ 18 INT each giving them two fireball spells each, or 4 6d7 AOE spells total. That's massive burst damage that I use to soften/annihilate enemy packs (they are always in packs, like Dungeon Master). If any survive, my melee guys finish them off while the mages cast magic missile at the darkness!

Not sure if joking or not, but the problems I see, except for the one Delmair posted about the Frost Giants (plus some others) being able to hit any member of the party, are these:

# Your Mages will gain levels too slowly to be as powerful as they could be in EOB2.

# Your Mages, being multiclass, will ALWAYS have low HP.

# Judging from your screenshot, you're still only in the first tower of three. The second tower has petrifying monsters, and if you don't have a Mage that can cast Stone to Flesh by then, you'll have to rely on Magic Dust, which is in limited supply.

# Speaking of your current location, the top floor of the first tower has monsters that are immune to magic. You'll be coming across many more of those in the third tower, so all those fireballs aren't gonna do much there.

# What's worse, the second tower also has a 'test' in which ALL your spellcasters must remove ALL their spellbooks and Holy Symbols. That means no spellcasting and no healing spells cast while resting. And you WILL be taking tons of damage in this test.

# Also, with your slow Mage level advancements, it'll take a LONG time before you'll be able to cast True Seeing, which is a 'must-cast' spell in EOB.

# But all of the above points only apply for EOB2. Importing this party into EOB3 will give you many more problems to deal with, of which the Mage level restrictions are just the start.

In short, while your party configuration and tactics are powerful on the offensive, their defense leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Gregz]

EOB2

Dwarf Fighter
Dwarf Fighter
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage
Half-Elf Cleric/Mage

You will later pick up a Dwarf Cleric, and an Elven Mage.

The front two characters serve as a shield wall, as long as they are alive nothing can touch whoever is behind them in melee. So you give them full plate, helms, shields, etc. If one cleric goes down for whatever reason you have a backup, but most importantly and essentially...DnD almost *always* boils down to how many fireball spells you have at the ready, so this setup revolves entirely around having two mages (3 after picking up the NPC).

My current Cleric/Mage duo are 7/7 w/ 18 INT each giving them two fireball spells each, or 4 6d7 AOE spells total. That's massive burst damage that I use to soften/annihilate enemy packs (they are always in packs, like Dungeon Master). If any survive, my melee guys finish them off while the mages cast magic missile at the darkness!

Not sure if joking or not, but the problems I see, except for the one Delmair posted about the Frost Giants (plus some others) being able to hit any member of the party, are these:

# Your Mages will gain levels too slowly to be as powerful as they could be in EOB2.

# Your Mages, being multiclass, will ALWAYS have low HP.

# Judging from your screenshot, you're still only in the first tower of three. The second tower has petrifying monsters, and if you don't have a Mage that can cast Stone to Flesh by then, you'll have to rely on Magic Dust, which is in limited supply.

# Speaking of your current location, the top floor of the first tower has monsters that are immune to magic. You'll be coming across many more of those in the third tower, so all those fireballs aren't gonna do much there.

# What's worse, the second tower also has a 'test' in which ALL your spellcasters must remove ALL their spellbooks and Holy Symbols. That means no spellcasting and no healing spells cast while resting. And you WILL be taking tons of damage in this test.

# Also, with your slow Mage level advancements, it'll take a LONG time before you'll be able to cast True Seeing, which is a 'must-cast' spell in EOB.

# But all of the above points only apply for EOB2. Importing this party into EOB3 will give you many more problems to deal with, of which the Mage level restrictions are just the start.

In short, while your party configuration and tactics are powerful on the offensive, their defense leaves a lot to be desired.

Hmm, well damn.

/bows before Unkillable Cat's EOB knowledge.

 

[Sceptic]

/bows before Unkillable Cat's EOB knowledge.

And I thought I was an EOB fan. This man knows his EOB like I know my M&M

 

[Delmair]

I don't remember all the steps of the trilogy because I've finished EOB I and EOB II only a few times and EOB III only one.
But I see that the tips of the icelandic cat (ehehe) are always very useful! Beyond this I think everyone likes to use the fighting techniques that prefers.

Personally in combat I never stop in front of an enemy (strong or weak it is) long enough for him to have the time to hit my characters, I move the party laterally constantly attacking especially with melee weapons. For this reason, use always Haste spells more than Fireball or Lighting Bolt. Sometimes I use spells from a distance with enemies who suffer these like bullets, especially Ice Storm that can hit also enemies adjacent to the target.
(In any case the most powerful spell to cause damage is Cone of Cold that can hot all enemies in a room 3x3 without you need cast it in front of someone!)

If I were to play a regular game (without editor and various modifications) I believe that the best party for the combat is:

-Front- Dwarven Fighter: a dwarven fighter with a high Constitution (as 19 maximum and more HP than other race) has also a high resistance to poison agaist Giant Spider or Mantis Warrior for example, obviously hasn't maximum level restrictions for this class.
In EOB I a dwarf also allows the party to read the writing runes on the wall in the dwarvish levels of the game.
-Front- Human Paladin: a paladin can fight as well as any fighter plus has the ability to heal by laying on hands (very powerful since it heals up to 15-20 HP) and can cast some low level clerical spells when they reach ninth level, this compensates for the fact that increase levels a bit slowly respect a classic fighter.
-Back- Elven Mage: a single-class elf mage gains levels more quickly, with a high dexterity (can be maximum 19) has a low AC, improves the probability to hit with a ranged weapons or survive at enemies thrown weapons and hasn't maximum level restrictions for this class but can be raised only once therefore not allow that never die.
In EOB I an elf also allows the party to read the writing runes on the wall in the drow levels of the game.
-Back- Gnome Cleric/Thief: gnome race is the only race that allows have this multi-class, although has level restrictions (as maximum 10 level for cleric class) and gains levels less swiftly than other characters, for healing spells and for pick locks if don't find all keys in the game.
In EOB I a gnome also allows the party to read the writing runes on the wall in the kobolds levels of the game.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Delmair: Interesting party, but it's gimped by the Gnome. The front-liners are as good as they get, but the Gnome Cleric/Thief is only good for the first two games, at best. The level restrictions in EOB1 is that Clerics can only reach Lvl 10, all other classes can reach Lvl 11. In EOB2 all classes can reach Lvl 13, irregardless of what race they are. It's in EOB3 that the restrictions start kicking in, and they hurt for the Gnome. His maximum Cleric lvl is 12*, while his Thief is capped at Lvl 16. That means that a Gnome Cleric will just barely get some 6th-level Cleric spells, but will never gain the 7th-level Cleric spells, so no Resurrection for him.

Gnomes are supposed to receive a +1 to hit bonus against Orcs, Goblins and Kobolds and have some Magic Resistance. That 'to hit' bonus, along with their ability to read Kobold and Orc, is only useful on the first two levels of the first game, as there are no Orcs or Goblins in any of the EOB games. I honestly have no way to tell if their Magic Resistance actually is applied in-game or not.

The other problem is the Elf Mage with DEX 19. The difference between DEX 18 and DEX 19 is not +1 AC, but +1 to hit with missile weapons. The AC bonus is unchanged, so it's not gonna help him much unless he'll be spamming missile attacks... which is probably the case in EOB3. But he'll be an Elf, which means Raise Dead won't work, you'll need Resurrection... which this party won't have.

But for the first two games (there are some people who refuse to play EOB3) this party is as good as it gets.

* Note the disrepancy in the above numbers. The level restriction in EOB2 is actually higher than in EOB3, so in the unlikely event that you max out his Cleric level in EOB2 and then import him to EOB3, he'll be one level higher than the game normally permits him. Still won't get him the 7th-level Cleric spells, but every little bit counts.

 

[Delmair]

Clearly create a gnome and keep he within the party for all three episodes of the saga is a bit from masochist!
There are NPCs stronger and interesting in the games that can replace de gnome.
For you Unkillable Cat, what's the best NPC among all?

 

[Unkillable Cat]

If I take each game individually, then it's Taghor in the first game, Calandra in the second and Tabitha in the third. But overall, and aiming to import the NPC into subsequent games, then Prince Keirgar is the overall best NPC.

 

[weirwood]

Chalk me up for recommending to skip EOB3. Although it did have one funny part - you could beat the final boss by repeatedly chugging your returning throwing weapons into the teleporter that's supposed to take you to the final combat.

Remind me about thieves in the first two games. If I remember correctly, you don't need one in 1; there are enough keys to open up all closed doors. EOB2 had some lockpick-only doors. How many of those were there? I remember one in the dungeons early on, and a few in the upstairs area where you find Amber, including the one to her room. Any others places in the first two games?

I always went with a human paladin and dwarf fighter for my front line. Are you sure that elves don't get their bonus for long and short swords? An elf/human ranger in light armor might be worth considering otherwise.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

weirwood: Thanks for the tip about the returnable throwing weapons, I actually hadn't thought of that one!

You are exactly right - while some doors can be lockpicked in EOB1, you'll always find the keys for them. In EOB2 there is the one door down in the catacombs, and the two (three?) doors up in the Cleric living quarters. In EOB3 there is a puzzle or two where a Thief can provide an alternate solution, but that's it. In short, the class is completely unnecessary.

 

[Delmair]

But overall, and aiming to import the NPC into subsequent games, then Prince Keirgar is the overall best NPC.

Why? He's very strong, but has a low level of dexterity, consequently an AC not suitable for the frontal combat (IMHO). He has peculiarity of special that I don't know yet?

Are you sure that elves don't get their bonus for long and short swords? An elf/human ranger in light armor might be worth considering otherwise.

I tried rangers characters (elves or humans is not important) and they haven't malus using the secondary weapon, exactly as it is written in the manual, but they should wear a light armor as a chainmail (certainly no a platemail!).

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Again to weirwood : Yes, I am sure. It is specifically stated on the Data Sheet for EOB2, possibly for EOB1 as well. The "+10% XP bonus for having your primary stat 16 or higher" bit is also not present in the game.

Delmair : You named his only weakness - he doesn't have high enough DEX to get a bonus to his Armour Class. But he has maximum CON and almost the maximum Strength possible, and he's a Dwarf. Just make sure he always gets the best armour, and he's good to go.