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The Dragon Age: Inquisition Thread

Prime Junta

Guest
I'm not gonna sit here and say DA:O is some amazing thing, but seriously what the fuck are you talking about? It has MMO style cooldowns and other quirks, but at least it's a real tactical RPG.

Yeah but it's a poorly executed one. I'd rather play a well-executed aRPG than a poorly-executed tactical RPG.

You can pull out the camera, issue orders and plan placement, and on harder difficulties a lot of encounters actually require strategy and proper use of powers/equipment.

All true. And all badly let down by the moment-to-moment gameplay.

The battles are actually designed well a lot of the time, outside the slog that is the deep roads.

Again, true. It has a nice variety of enemies (other than the bits with wave after way of darkspawn) and some rather nicely set up encounters.

In contrast DA2's battles feel barely designed at all, they just spam bullshit at you

Again, true. However what DA2 does better -- IMO -- is the moment-to-moment flow of combat. It just feels better. With DA:O it felt like I was continuously working to get the guys to do what I wanted them to do; in DA2 I was focused on playing the game.

and DA:I is mostly an action game with MMO fodder battles

True, but again the moment to moment flow of combat is better than in DA:O, about the same as in DA2. And it does have more encounter variety than DA2.

I'm seriously baffled how any PC gamer could prefer the combat of 2 and 3 over 1.

Again, it's the moment to moment flow of the gameplay. DA:O is just janky and clunky, to the point that it lets down the stuff that it does well, or even reasonably well, and while a lot of stuff in it is pretty competent there wasn't anything there that was good enough that it really made it worth it to push past it.

NWN2 for example is fairly horrid in moment-to-moment gameplay too, but it has one really cool thing that makes it almost worthwhile: the massively rich D&D class system supported by really pretty good itemisation. That's a ton of fun to tool around in, and makes the rest of it tolerable. DA:O doesn't have any peak feature like that; it's above-average at best which leaves me lukewarm.
 

DalekFlay

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Again, it's the moment to moment flow of the gameplay. DA:O is just janky and clunky, to the point that it lets down the stuff that it does well, or even reasonably well, and while a lot of stuff in it is pretty competent there wasn't anything there that was good enough that it really made it worth it to push past it.

This is David Gaider level "awesome button" shit dude. DA:O is not more "clunky" than average for a RtwP game.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
This is David Gaider level "awesome button" shit dude. DA:O is not "clunky" for a RtwP game.

Oh come on man, don't intentionally misunderstand me. "Awesome button" shit has nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay flow.

In this respect, IE games > Pillars games > NWN1 > DA:I and DA2 > DA:O > NWN2.
 

JDR13

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I have to agree DA:O feels somewhat clunky.

Besides, anything D&D is almost automatically better than DA due to the bestiary. DA just throws the same 4-5 unimaginative enemies at you over and over again.
 

Tim the Bore

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Worse than DA:O or DA2? Hardly.

Yes, it's even worse than these. I actually think that DA: O combat system was pretty good, but it was brought down by crappy enemy encounters. And I don't really remember much of Dragon Age 2 - but I absolutely disliked every fight in DA: I.

(1) Combat-wise, your choices do matter. Classes play very differently. A ranged rogue does not play like a fighter, who does not play like a mage. Builds within classes also matter: an arcane warrior does not play like a rift mage, and a battlemaster does not play like a tank

Maybe on paper, but in practice, everything feels the same. You just spawning your cooldowns abilities over and over, but there is nothing else to do - again, the game doesn't have the mechanics to make classes feel different. Abilities themself are not enough, because the way you using them feel the same everytime.

(2) Narrative-wise, your choices also matter. In particular, they matter a lot with companion interactions. The main story arc is the same, but the companions are the sounding board for your narrative development, and this in fact is one area where DA:I succeeds really well -- much better than anything Obsidian has managed in recent years for example.

What? No, they don't. You're interactions with companions takes place through the dialogues and you don't really have a choice in that regard - sometimes you can emotionally react, but that's about it. The quest for Blackwell being the one, noticeable exception. For what few choices you might have, their reactions is made of two lines of dialogues and without lasting consequences. And companions are still the best part of the game.

The whole conceit of the Inquisition and the war table actually gives a reason and a structure for all the random questing, and spices it up well with the "off-camera" missions handed to your advisors.

I actually think that war table missions may be this game biggest mistake. If anything, here is when the game could give us a couple of choices - since it all would be presented through text, it wouldn't take a lot of time and resouces to do. Instead we have this ocean of another filler quests that don't have any consequences and the rewards are comically tiny. Apparently making strategic alliances with Ferelden's noublehouses is worth less than giving a couple of soldiers some blankets.

Nah it's fine, it's good enough to tie all the adventuring together. Trying to push more story at you would make this style of game more annoying. It's an open world style game, those need fairly simple stories, or else just an emergent story with faction mechanics which DA:I doesn't even attempt.

I didn't say that the BioWare should create more story, I said that they need to change their approach to them. Right now the story demands that you're a person in a position in power, but both gameplay and particular events in the story contradict that.

Again, disagree. This is cool when it's done well but it's by no means something that every game, or every RPG, has to have. There's nothing wrong with a simple story arc that's about collecting allies to kill the big bad, and then killing the big bad.

Again, it's not my idea, it's what the game is built upon on. The whole premise is that you're a leader of a massive political structure and you choices could potentially change the social landscape of the world. The game constantly beats you over the head with this, making other people asking you about the weight of responsibilities, trying to judge your choices, criticizing you for them (especially in Trespasser), making your character talking about them over and over - but you don't have these choices, spare a few that don't really matter in the long run (mages vs templars). I don't demand that the game should have a lot of C&C, the game itself demands that. You suppose to be in control, but you never are.

This, I think, sums up your position rather nicely: you expect a certain set of features in a game and if it doesn't have it, you think it's objectively bad, same as the people who hate the Twitchers because they have a fixed protag, or because they're aRPGs.

C'mon man, spare me this "I know better than you what you said" kind of arguments. I like Witcher 3 (though the first one is still my favourite). And it's actually a pretty good example of what I'm trying to say. Witcher 3 can get away with mediocre main story, because the heart of the books (and games) lies in small-scale places and events - villages, farms, particular houses etc. And only on that level C&C actually matter - since Geralt faces that kind of choices everyday. In the same time, main story doesn't need them - because Geralt doesn't have a say when it comes to making big, political decisions. So it's all thematically appropriate.

On the other hand, DA: I is all about big decisions that could potentially change the world around you - and about a problems of running organisation of multi-level complexity. Yet the game won't allow us to experience that. The premise of the game is in a constant struggle with its content and one of that things required changes.

And I consider Andromeda to be a better game that Inquisiton, simply because shooting is somewhat competent, so there is something - anything - that works as intended. Nothing in Inquisiton works as intended.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I consider Andromeda to be a better game that Inquisiton

:what:

Okay it is clear that our views are fundamentally irreconcilable, between us can be only war

Besides, anything D&D is almost automatically better than DA due to the bestiary.

I have a love-hate relationship with D&D. I used to run tabletop campaigns in it for... I dunno, 20 years or so? More? Not sure. Yet I'm acutely aware of just how much SUCK there is in all the editions. The systems are just objectively bad in so many ways.

But but but. There's still nothing out there that's as rich as D&D. There's just so much stuff in it -- classes, feats, spells, items, abilities, lore, entire fully fleshed-out worlds. That's why I think D&D knock-offs like DA or Pathfinder are worse than pointless, they just end up importing all of the suck but because they start from zero they have none of the accumulated glorious richness than makes the original what it is.

So if you're making a new fantasy RPG -- tabletop or computer -- it is greatly preferable just to throw out D&D and make a new design from scratch and from different premises. They can then have not so much suck, which makes them worth playing as they start accumulating the depth.
 
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I like the D&D mechanics (certainly imperfect, but definitely fun) but i do not enjoy anything else about it like the lore and the aesthetics etc.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
the lore and the aesthetics

There is no "the lore" and "the aesthetics" about D&D. If you're talking about Forgotten Realms then I agree, I'm not a huge fan either -- but D&D is also Planescape, Dark Sun, Al Qadim, Oriental Adventures, and more.
 

Daidre

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
DAI was ok-ish on gamepad in standard mode, much better than on mouse, but tactical combat view on gamepad was a purest nightmare. I have no idea who in the right mind could approve this.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Tactical combat view on it was hot garbage any way you look at it. I didn't acutely hate the gameplay just ignoring it and treating it as an aRPG.

Incidentally, this is one of the games that gets worse when you bump up the difficulty. On Normal you can pretty much ignore the grind related to crafting and busywork sidequests; on the harder difficulties it becomes pretty much mandatory or else the fights last forever because of the mountains of hitpoints involved. So the upshot is that playing Normal while ignoring the busywork as much as possible and focusing on the interesting bits ends up harder than playing on Hard while meticulously doing the busywork. (Can't say about Nightmare, I never bothered trying that.)
 

VentilatorOfDoom

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DAI on nightmare is ezmode unless you're new to vidya or don't understand the character system (i.e. can't identify the overpowered skills or are a larper who plays gimped RP builds because muh roleplaying).
 

sullynathan

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Dec 22, 2015
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nightmare is pretty easy but combat is trash regardless. You are probably better off playing it on a lower difficulty just to get combat to be slightly shorter than it already is.

tacticool camera was really really bad. What were they thinking. It doesn't work with how large their world is, you have far less options in controlling your party than DAO.
 

Riddler

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Bubbles In Memoria
So I just reinstalled DAI and I'm horrified by the combat system, it is way worse than I remembered. Why anyone would defend any part of this I don't understand, this has to be at least among the top 3 worst designed combat systems ever to exist in an AAA game.

People complain about the combat in the Pillars games but it is honestly heavenly perfection compared to this dogshit.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
So I just reinstalled DAI and I'm horrified by the combat system, it is way worse than I remembered. Why anyone would defend any part of this I don't understand, this has to be at least among the top 3 worst designed combat systems ever to exist in an AAA game.

I dunno if it fits in the top 3, the other two would have to be DA:O and DA2
 
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut
So I just reinstalled DAI and I'm horrified by the combat system, it is way worse than I remembered. Why anyone would defend any part of this I don't understand, this has to be at least among the top 3 worst designed combat systems ever to exist in an AAA game.

People complain about the combat in the Pillars games but it is honestly heavenly perfection compared to this dogshit.
https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonageinquisition/mods/1498
https://www.nexusmods.com/dragonageinquisition/mods/2225
 

Riddler

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Bubbles In Memoria
So I just reinstalled DAI and I'm horrified by the combat system, it is way worse than I remembered. Why anyone would defend any part of this I don't understand, this has to be at least among the top 3 worst designed combat systems ever to exist in an AAA game.

I dunno if it fits in the top 3, the other two would have to be DA:O and DA2

Possibly, I'll reinstall DAO and report back. I don't remember it being this shit though.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
the lore and the aesthetics

There is no "the lore" and "the aesthetics" about D&D. If you're talking about Forgotten Realms then I agree, I'm not a huge fan either -- but D&D is also Planescape, Dark Sun, Al Qadim, Oriental Adventures, and more.
Forgotten Realms has pretty much become synonymous with D&D at this point tbh. WotC barely even publishes material for other settings anymore(? have they even published non-FR stuff for 5e? I don't mean compilations of old books)
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Forgotten Realms has pretty much become synonymous with D&D at this point tbh. WotC barely even publishes material for other settings anymore(? have they even published non-FR stuff for 5e? I don't mean compilations of old books)

Bummer. I'm out of touch I suppose, haven't really followed since the 4e debacle.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
So I just reinstalled DAI and I'm horrified by the combat system, it is way worse than I remembered. Why anyone would defend any part of this I don't understand, this has to be at least among the top 3 worst designed combat systems ever to exist in an AAA game.

People complain about the combat in the Pillars games but it is honestly heavenly perfection compared to this dogshit.
In my experience only the archer build was intended to be controlled by a human. There's some gameplay around lining up explosive shot, piercing shot, and timing mark of death.
 

DalekFlay

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Oh come on man, don't intentionally misunderstand me. "Awesome button" shit has nothing to do with moment to moment gameplay flow.

Actually gameplay flow was EXACTLY what they were talking about with that shit. The "clunky" aspect of DA:O where you waddle behind the enemy or whatever. That's the exact stuff DA2 was designed to change, and why it feels like you're running around like a horny bunny all the time.

I'm not even saying all those changes were necessarily bad, but when paired with the complete lack of well designed battles and tactical aspect, and without it being actual good action combat, it just feels like a total loss in both DA2 and DA:I. You're saying you prefer the sequels because they go more action focused, but the problem is they don't really, and aren't good at it anyway. The mobs are trash, the tactics are absent and they're a far, far cry from something like Dark Souls (or even Greedfall, which I am playing now and has quite good action combat). I can't even fathom preferring that compromised trash mob middleground garbage to DA:O, despite its flaws. Agree to disagree though I guess.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
The mobs are trash, the tactics are absent and they're a far, far cry from something like Dark Souls (or even Greedfall, which I am playing now and has quite good action combat). I can't even fathom preferring that compromised trash mob middleground garbage to DA:O, despite its flaws.

I haven't played Dark Souls but by all accounts it has actually enjoyable, well-designed combat, so it's not exactly a fair comparison. We're comparing different levels of suck here, not something that sucks to something that doesn't.

As to "awesome button," no, that's not what it was all about. "Hit a button, something awesome happens!" Nuh. I'm simply talking about the moment-to-moment feel and flow of the combat, not anything awesome happening every time you hit a button. Basic things like movement, camera control, pathfinding, collision detection and collision boxes, UI responsiveness, party AI that behaves predictably and somewhat sensibly. That's just chock full of suck in DA:O, and less full of suck in DA2 and DA:I. That DA:O has better-designed encounters just adds insult to injury.

Again: the IE games still set the standard for combat flow in a top-down tactical RTwP RPG, and Pillars as it currently stands is in the same ballpark; its main problem is the VFX which have a tendency to obscure stuff and the fact that most classes have tons of active abilities that need micro unless you build a party specifically to avoid that. DA:O is really awful by comparison.
 

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