The definitive, last Pillars of Eternity rating thread!

[Falksi]

A fair way into Act 2 now and got to say, overall I'm loving it.

The biggest annoyance so far has come from the amount of loading screens & time they take. Fuck me, every fucking house, seriously?

My complaint about the combat earlier still remains a bit too. I always play it on slow, normal speed feels trashy, but it's still easy for things to get messy at times. Worst still you just don't get the feel of some great abilities hitting home. Far too often it's left to the numbers to give you that "boom!" feeling, rather than what you see/hear happen, which is a shame.

But in context they are minor gripes in what is proving to be just a fucking awesomely fun, deep, interesting and addictive game.

Big kudos has to go to the world & enemy design. It walks a superb line of familiarity & freshness, with plenty of elements we all know & love, & lots of new ones too.

 

[Lacrymas]

Was debating with myself whether it's a 5 or a 6, but then I remembered that I gave Siege of Dragonspear a 6 and PoE is kinda on the same level.

 

[Lacrymas]

Those ratings are delicious, so many tears when faced with the truth, mmmm. The game is passable, just like SoD is passable, it's not my fault your ideologies prevent you from seeing that. The few good moments that WM2 provides is not enough to redeem the whole, sorry. The combat is fine and that's why it's a 5, just like SoD's is fine because it's literally BG. Both provide too few good moments and the writing is absolutely pointless and skippable in both. Itemization is good in both, so that bumps it up to 6. I'd recommend a playthrough of both, but that's it.

 

[ilitarist]

What's the point of talking about passable, "ideologies"? This game is as good as RPGs go. There are prettier RPGs, even some with better gameplay, but it's hard to talk about any game reliably beating PoE in several nominations. Because that's where we are with the genre and videogames in general. There are games like Witcher 3 - beautiful, with a nice story that wouldn't be out of place in a B-level movie or TV show but never anywhere higher than this (it's telling that this world and stories are considered one of the best videogame worlds and stories yet source books weren't even translated to English for decades before the game made it profitable) and the gameplay is repetetive. There's Divinity Original Sin 2 which is good in general but is goofy and the balance/variety/difficulty are questionable. There's, I don't know, Age of Decadence that many people like for some reason and it has bad writing, looks ugly but they say there's a nice web of decisions in there. And if we start talking about old classics it turns out that even Enhanced Editions or mods can't fix the fact that people back then worked on a lesser level of quality, they were content with simplistic dialogue, empty world and broken unbalanced systems.

You're talking as if Pillars of Eternity is a bottle of beer you can get in a general store as if RPG genre has any games that can be considered old quality wine compared to PoE. We don't have that. If your scale doesn't have negative numbers than to fit RPGs there you need to put PoE somewhere near the maximum. Because sadly we didn't every get RPGs that are much better than PoE. I'd be glad to see one but the best we can get would be marginally better than PoE and that is a sad reality.

 

[Lacrymas]

Age of Decadence doesn't have bad writing, nor is its setting divorced from whatever it is you are doing, unlike PoE. An RPG must have fine (not great) gameplay for it to get to 5 on my scale, combat is PoE's only gameplay and it's fine, then can you start building up. There are better RPGs than PoE, if PoE was a shining example of this genre I'd rather drop RPGs from my list of interests. Even if there weren't, you still have some baseline expectations about the different aspects of a game, especially in this age. When put into context, of course, you can't have the same expectations about a game from 30 years ago. Vidya Gaem writers aren't just now discovering writing for it to be judged like that, same with the artistic dimensions of the visuals or anything else apart from gameplay. PoE is tedious, a swamp of nothingness and pointlessness that is only barely saved by its combat and the few good moments of WM2. WM2 just isn't enough, sorry.

 

[Haplo]

Even while being Edgy, you forgot Raedric's Keep. And WM1.

Actually many vanilla game areas are at least passable for me as well, if not ingeniously designed. In fact only the 2 towns felt very lacklustre. And the game's pacing sucks.
Sure, the combat is a bit difficult to read, but it's manageable at Slow speed with pause.
Those are the only issues I have with the game, I think.

Writing could be a lot better, but I don't have any high expectations regarding video game writing. It's serviceable enough for me.

On the other hand I've found the combat fun, area design pretty good, and character creation and development, as well as class diversification, plus itemization a touch of genius. Amazing work they did on their first attempt, I thought. Am rather sad about all the changes Obsidian did in PoE2.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think WM1 is special in any way, I did mention in my previous post that PoE provides good moments, but not enough. There are 4 good things about the base game, Raedric's and Temple of Eothas, Durance and that quest where you hunt down the actors that kill people in-front of an audience. WM1 has the first battle with the ogres, Cragholdt aaand hmmm, the last battle with the ghost dwarves, I guess? WM2 has more and it's actually good, but not enough to save the whole.

Am rather sad about all the changes Obsidian did in PoE2.

It's less changed than you think.

 

[ilitarist]

About Age of Decadence - the very first dialogue in the game had filled me with sadness. Here it is from some random letsplay: https://youtu.be/iVNThgmK2VI?t=958

First the dude talks like a wiseman, then he talks about "shithole", then you're teleported to the inn inside of the dialogue (seen visual novels with gentler transitions), as well as whole pages of dialogue consisting of a single word "Why?" right after lengthy boring unnecessary decsriptions.It's amateur and looks as if there were different authors writing different screens with no overmind editor and no consistent vision: some likes to write the text as if it's a historical novel, some are edgy and insert swearwords - and it's just the difference between NPCs and locations, it happens inside the same dialogue. All while you have less agency in dialogue than in Fallout 4. Anyway, that's beside the point.

Lacrymas, you've listed good moments in PoE and I tend to agree. Yeah, those are most of the things you'd remember of the game (I'd add the starting dungeon and maybe first several levels of Caed Nua, especially when you can drop down and go up from there), but I still don't get the argument. Because I struggle to name an RPG that has more. When we talk about Planescape we probably mostly think about the beginning, the bar with Ignus and selected dialogues with Ravel, Dak'kon, prostitutes and things like that. Not a whole lot to name. When I think about Arcanum I remember how huge Tarant felt, how I looked for elves, the Void... and all the rest is general atmosphere and mechanics. What are those RPGs you'd call 7, 8, 9, 10 out of 10 games? Because if PoE is 6 then I won't to play those 8 - not to nitpick and talk about how I don't like things you like - but just because I honestly don't see what games are that much better than PoE, and PoE is not itself that great.

 

[Haplo]

WM1 also has Galvino's Workshop. And Lagufuet. And more memorable battles with the ghost dwarves, like crossing a bridge they defend (and getting drawn into crossfire).
Overall I much preferred WM1 content to WM2 (even if some reveals in WM2 were nice).

It's nice that some things remained the same in PoE2. Still Ciphers were among my favorite classes and the move to per-encounter powers probably nerfed their main perk: sustainability. I'm a little bitter about the move to per-encounter and health removal. And about spells-as-talents.

 

[Lacrymas]

ilitarist maybe you should play AoD more and not nitpick swear words too much. You have extreme agency in dialogue, the most out of any game ever, maybe apart from PS:T. 7 are the nu-Shadowruns, the least amount of bullshit you have to sift through to enjoy it, also Baldur's Gate 1. 7.5 is Arcanum. 8 is MotB, VtMB, BG2, Fallout 2, UnderRail. 9 is PS:T, Fallout 1, KotOR2 (yes, it's due to the writing), AoD, Jagged Alliance 2 (if we count it as an RPG). I don't think I have a 10 RPG yet, it has to be something that will completely blow my mind in every possible way. These are arbitrary, though, it's absurd to give a numerical representation of a complex opinion. Some are higher in their categories, some lower.

Haplo, Ciphers still have sustainability, that's not the problem. The problem is that they are casters, which in general are shit, but are also outshined by Chanters in their own field. Cipher and its subclasses, apart from Soulblade, is the worst class in the beta atm.

 

[ilitarist]

Lacrymas, it's strange because apart from AoD I'd agree with your 9s, but I haven't played Underrail and think that VtMB and MotB have not aged well.

I've completed Act I as Loremaster and didn't like that I remember little choices and many skillchecks: the way I created my character had defined everything I could do in Act 1, my stats had given me a specific critical path and there was maybe a single quest (from Merchant guild) that I may have wanted to skip. Also after Act I the game had shown me all results for that city and my understanding is that all the consequences of everything I did in Act I have vanished. Did I misunderstood the game?

 

[Trashos]

I haven't voted, because I haven't played the expansions. PoE base game, fully patched, is a 7/10 for me. "Good" but no more than that. It is still my 2nd favorite RTwP after BG2, but only because there are very few RTwP games I can enjoy. IWD is too monotonous for my tastes. DAO is also a 7/10, as a mixed bag, but I slightly prefer PoE, because its systems show way more potential.

Wasteland 2 DC (8/10) and AoD (9/10) are 2 recent RPGs I consider better.

About Age of Decadence - the very first dialogue in the game had filled me with sadness. Here it is from some random letsplay: https://youtu.be/iVNThgmK2VI?t=958

While playing AoD repeatedly, I never found a dialogue to be out of place or not fitting. It was all very coherent, and the dark humor worked well. Also, the way the world building unfolded gradually through different playthroughs/perspectives was very exciting and special (what kind of people can do that?!). MCA is still my favorite RPG writer (PST and Dead Money are masterpieces), but I liked AoD writing a lot.

 

[Theldaran]

PoE vanilla is, like really bad. I managed to drag myself up to Sun in Shadow, but I never completed the game. I hear that the final battle is pretty shit. I don't want to find out.

Just burn Obsidian already. Their credit, with that whole "oh gosh, publishers never ever gave us the opportunity to do good shit", which in PoE's case is "folks, with 4 million bucks we can't really do it better, next time give us 10 lolol", is sinking.

 

[Sizzle]

Just burn Obsidian already.

What's the point in this sort of thinking?

Like their games or not, at least they are proper RPGs (unlike BioWare's and Bethesda's products), and, PoE, for all its faults, managed to convince some other studios that such games are worth making, and soon we'll get Kingmaker out of it. Probably others as well if PoE2 does well.

Bottom line, it's in every RPG lover's best interest that more studios such as Obsidian exist. They are honest with their customers (unlike, say, InXile), sometimes try different things, and there's always a chance that maybe someday we'll get another Mask of The Betrayer, or Fallout: New Vegas from them.

 

[Lacrymas]

Definitely. While I don't have a particularly high opinion of PoE as a whole, WM2 convinced me that they have potential and PoE2 might be good. This whole RPG Renaissance (which is actually the second one) proved that there is still a sizable market for true RPGs. Obsidian, with all its faults, proved that they can listen to the right feedback and improve over the course of time, unlike every other AA studio, which has only been decline.

 

[ilitarist]

While playing AoD repeatedly, I never found a dialogue to be out of place or not fitting. It was all very coherent, and the dark humor worked well. Also, the way the world building unfolded gradually through different playthroughs/perspectives was very exciting and special (what kind of people can do that?!). MCA is still my favorite RPG writer (PST and Dead Money are masterpieces), but I liked AoD writing a lot.

My perception may be tainted as my mother tongue is totally not English but usually it worked. E.g. Sunless Sea is too much of complex text to read for me but I still recognize it's good. Torment of Numenera is too much to read but I see that it would be much for any sober person. Dead Money is indeed spot on - it taught me it's time to let go. Even so I'll give another try to Age of Decadence.

 

[Theldaran]

So, we need to support a company that hasn't made a good game since forever? Isn't that the very definition of decline?

Remember that the RPG renaissance is decided by sales, not quality. PoE and PoE2 may sell millions but it doesn't have to mean they're great games. Probably other games more underrated are of higher quality. But you know how the masses are: tasteless. Or else, you may end up considering Fallout 4 a masterpiece RPG from the renaissance.

 

[Sizzle]

So, we need to support a company that hasn't made a good game since forever? Isn't that the very definition of decline?

You have to remember that this same train of thought was repeated ad nauseam even before they released F:NV.

So yes, if you don't enjoy their games - fair enough, don't buy them. You, like everyone else, should vote with your wallet. But they do have the capacity to make something good, and for that reason alone - I don't want to see them gone.

Even inXile, for all their double-crossing and mismanagement, still have the potential to produce a good RPG, so even their hypothetical demise would be a blow to the RPG industry, and detrimental to us as RPG connoisseurs.

Remember that the RPG renaissance is decided by sales, not quality. PoE and PoE2 may sell millions but it doesn't have to mean they're great games. Probably other games more underrated are of higher quality. But you know how the masses are: tasteless. Or else, you may end up considering Fallout 4 a masterpiece RPG from the renaissance.

The type of RPG most studios want to emulate are your Skyrim's, your Witcher 3's, not a game that sold modestly like PoE. On the other hand, a game like PoE selling even moderately well shows studios that there is still a market for such games, and because of that - more studios may try producing similar games. Like Kingmaker, a game I really doubt would have existed without PoE's success.

In conclusion - the more games such as PoE (which, though with numerous faults, do have good things in them) get released and recieve a measure of financial and critical success, the better the odds that we'll get more games in a similar vein, some of which may turn out good.

 

[Theldaran]

I think it would be better to ask for some real quality, or real something out of these games. That more bad games are being produced is no improvement. But, that's the thing -PoE isn't even bad, it's just soulless, boring, and uninspired. But hey, it's pretty.

Your average studio can't do a Skyrim or Witcher 3, so they have to settle for less. That explains why they lock their eyes on PoE. If not, tell me why there have been "smaller" games like Serpent in the Staglands and only major studios can do open world.

At the end of the day, it's just trying over and over and over again -filling the market with lots of CRPG where the majority will be terrible, a few will be a scam, but the rare one is good or even great. On that much I agree.

The "burn Obsidian down" thing was of course just exaggeration, but yeah, if you don't like the game then don't buy it, as simple as that. Also companies should be forgiven of their failures every now and then, but Obsidian's record is just... not great.

 

[Lacrymas]

Obsidian's track record has been consistently good in the RPG sphere. Their only true blunder is Dungeon Siege 3. At least I think it is, I never managed to play more than 10 minutes of it. Even though I despise the gameplay of FO:NV I still know it's a good game. Some of their games are more flawed than others (PoE, NWN2 OC), but they still kind of manage to cram in some good stuff in there so it isn't a complete waste. I guess we'll see what they can actually do on April 3rd, won't we. I also have adjusted expectations from playing the beta and even then I'm mildly impressed by it and mildly excited.

 

[Sizzle]

Even DS3 had a few good things that aren't usually found in typical hack and slash games, like better characterization and some C&C. Not saying the game is worth playing for just those, but it is there.

All their games have at least a couple of such elements. Even Tyranny, which I consider their (after DS3, which is barely an RPG) weakest game, has a few interesting bits.

 

[Lacrymas]

Lol, I totally forgot Tranny existed.

 

[McPlusle]

I plan on finally playing PoE after I finally (After like 13 years) finish Baldur's Gate II, which I'm currently working on. My expectations are going to be fucked beyond repair, aren't they? Some of these quest designs and crazy magic items can't be surpassed.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, it's going to feel like a downgrade. A lot. I'd recommend waiting a bit after completing BG2 to start PoE, like a month, maybe more.

 

[Haplo]

Well, magic in BG2 is hard to beat. But melee careers? PoE is waaaay more interesting for that.
Items? Personally I like the PoE itemization better.