The Death of Immersive Sims?

[ore clover]

Infinitron, what are you doing in the comments section? You're just going to lose some IQ points posting in that dark place.

Speaking of which:

Mostly agree with this, except I boycotted the latest Deus Ex due to its inclusion of micro transactions in a full priced game, nothing to do with politics.

Congratulations, you played yourself. Now there is not going to be any new Deus Ex game. And the microtransactions were only for the extra, optional breach mode that nobody played, the actual game itself was not affected by them in the slightest.

Damn that Marclev, killing the Deus Ex franchise over microtransactions! He should've the ultimate collector's edition (game not included) instead. For the love of AAA gaming.

 

[Des]

A "journalist" writes an article because he is afraid of less revenue for gaming "news" sites.

Do i care? Nope, not really.

 

[Morkar Left]

Huh? Bit late... this article would have been fitting around 12 years ago...

 

[Infinitron]

Interesting comment: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/05/19/this-is-a-golden-age-of-games/#comment-2439075

I love Prey so much. But it has, sadly, one huge issue that has been a staple of recent Arkane games. Though it didn’t affect Dishonored as much given the type of game it is. That issue is that Arkane is really bad at making (new) players understand why their game is fun. It’s not enough to just make a great game, you need to have systems in place to make new players “get” your game.

Take quest markers. In Arkane games they literally point you away from the game proper. It’s not a issue for ‘experienced’ Arkane fans who know that the “go here” marker actually means “avoid until last” in Arkane language, but it is a huge issue for gaining the fandom of new players. That’s why we got reports of many people feeling they wasted 60$ on a 7 hour game with Dishonored, and that’s why we get reports of people feeling Prey is a clunky shooter with way too little story or ammo. It’s not that they are ‘bad’ players, they just play the game wrong and they do so because Arkane is literally encouraging to them to.

Contrast this to something like Dark Souls which uses every element of it’s design to make the player understand how and why the game is fun. Dark Souls wasn’t a huge success because everybody was waiting for a dreary game about dying repeatedly, it was a huge success because it was designed in such a way that it made people understand why a dreary game about dying repeatedly is fun.

If Arkane want’s to keep making games like these (and I sure as hell want them to) then they need not make better games – but they need to be better at leading players towards what is good about their games and not lead them away from it. They need to commit more to their style of game-play (like Dark Souls did with it’s) and not less.

 

[Des]

If AAA are now too expensive to make a profit simply reduce its costs by lowering the graphical quality. Way too much budget is going to graphics nowadays.

 

[Lyric Suite]

That's a long winded way of saying the game is too n00b friendly.

Dark Souls doesn't treat the player as a moron. Somehow that seems to work, for some strange reason.

 

[Roguey]

Not really, Bethesda games sell because they have, by far, the best marketing dept. in the industry and because of mods, period.

Usually, people who found Morrowind to be an overall p. good game, don't hold Oblivion and Skyrim in high regard. Even F3 fans were somewhat disappointed with F4. But they still sell millions upon millions because of huge hype and a HUGE mod base.

Console users can't use mods, moreoever "marketing" doesn't explain why 10 million people bought Skyrim in a year and never resold it back to Gamestop (thus allowing it to stay $60 that entire time, something that's nearly unheard of)

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

If AAA are now too expensive to make a profit simply reduce its costs by lowering the graphical quality. Way too much budget is going to graphics nowadays.

It's probably too late for that.
People have gotten used to "improving" graphical quality. If any AAA studio tries it, they will be drowned into screams of "OMG it's 2007 again" from certain and loud portion of consumers.

 

[vonAchdorf]

They'll have to streamline the process of asset generation, reuse more of the stuff and don't reinvent model the wheel every iteration. It's commendable that Ubi paid someone to work on Unity's Notre Dame for a year, but maybe not that sustainable.

But on the other side dev costs are dwarfed by marketing costs, so maybe there's even more room to save money.

 

[Outlander]

Console users can't use mods, moreoever "marketing" doesn't explain why 10 million people bought Skyrim in a year and never resold it back to Gamestop (thus allowing it to stay $60 that entire time, something that's nearly unheard of)

Beggars can't be choosers. What others non-Bethesda, open world, sandbox style RPG did the consoles have back then?

 

[Infinitron]

Console users can't use mods, moreoever "marketing" doesn't explain why 10 million people bought Skyrim in a year and never resold it back to Gamestop (thus allowing it to stay $60 that entire time, something that's nearly unheard of)

Yeah, I think the rise of crowdfunding has generated a kind of doublethink in the minds of some people here.

Back in the old days, Codexers would say, "Only the most dumbed down games sell now. The dumber the game is, the more it sells. Woe is us!"

But now you increasingly have people going "LOL! If they'd made this game smarter, it wouldn't have flopped!" I figure Kickstarter has given them an exaggerated view of their own consumer power.

I guess the logic is that some genres can successfully be dumbed down and others can't? So it's like, either go full Bethesduh or make the most hardcore stealth game imaginable, no in-between.

 

[Lyric Suite]

2007 graphics were sure shit:

 

[an Administrator]

Now, your're saying that young audiences who never played Deus Ex or Hitman 2 should be able to appreciate the new games more but when you deliver a watered-down, simplified experience

But the new Hitman is not a "watered-down, simplified experience". They actually listened to the fans and tried to get back to the roots.

 

[Roguey]

Beggars can't be choosers. What others non-Bethesda, open world, sandbox style RPG did the consoles have back then?

Bethesda carved itself a nice niche nearly all to themselves, but I don't believe anyone expected it to get as large as it did. Additionally, attempts to move into that niche by other devs haven't been as successful. Assuming a smooth launch, Kingdom Come: Deliverance will certainly have its fans, but a Bethesda-level success is extremely unlikely.

 

[Paul_cz]

Infinitron, what are you doing in the comments section? You're just going to lose some IQ points posting in that dark place.

Speaking of which:

Mostly agree with this, except I boycotted the latest Deus Ex due to its inclusion of micro transactions in a full priced game, nothing to do with politics.

Congratulations, you played yourself. Now there is not going to be any new Deus Ex game. And the microtransactions were only for the extra, optional breach mode that nobody played, the actual game itself was not affected by them in the slightest.

Damn that Marclev, killing the Deus Ex franchise over microtransactions! He should've the ultimate collector's edition (game not included) instead. For the love of AAA gaming.

No it was Square Enix with their moronic decisions to develop breach and stuff it with microtransactions and shitty preorder DLCs that did it, but the point stands - those microtransactions did not affect the game itself in any way. And if someone wants more DX games (even compromised ones from Eidos) but refuses to buy them, well then tough shit, not gonna happen.

 

[Infinitron]

Beggars can't be choosers. What others non-Bethesda, open world, sandbox style RPG did the consoles have back then?

Bethesda carved itself a nice niche nearly all to themselves, but I don't believe anyone expected it to get as large as it did. Additionally, attempts to move into that niche by other devs haven't been as successful. Assuming a smooth launch, Kingdom Come: Deliverance will certainly have its fans, but a Bethesda-level success is extremely unlikely.

Back when we still used to talk, Brother None would sometimes tell me how Bethesda were the gaming industry's UNPARALLELED MASTERS OF MARKETING. I never bought it. I think they basically just got lucky. They occupied the right niche at the right time (and with the right technology to make their games on the cheap).

 

[Lyric Suite]

I do remember there being a very glowing and large media coverage of Oblivion when it came out but i think that had more to do with journalists being themselves clueless than any magic marketing skill coming from Bethesda.

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

I do remember there being a very glowing and large media coverage of Oblivion when it came out but i think that had more to do with journalists being themselves clueless than any magic marketing skill coming from Bethesda.

Maybe the journalists' praise of Oblivion had something to do with Bethesda's marketing

 

[Roguey]

Back when we still used to talk, Brother None would sometimes talk to me about how Bethesda were the gaming industry's UNPARALLELED MASTERS OF MARKETING. Never bought it. I think they basically just got lucky. Occupied the right niche at the right time (and with the right technology to make their games on the cheap).

Yeah, a studio so insecure that it blacklists fan sites over critical reviews (that Star Trek board, us) and sends C&Ds to small devs over trademark disputes doesn't come across to me as "masters of marketing."

Then there was their relatively-recent disaster with the Fallout 4 launch party, where they invited a bunch of non-game playing LA trash who were openly disgusted with the decor, much to the discomfort of the actual game developers who were also attending.

 

[octavius]

If AAA are now too expensive to make a profit simply reduce its costs by lowering the graphical quality. Way too much budget is going to graphics nowadays.

I dunno...to me it seems the graphical quality has been lowered the past five years, with the mobile phone game type of cartoony graphics with a limited palette being all the rage, and very few games having photorealistic graphics anymore.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Yeah, I agree with that too.
People vocally demand specific types of games, or sequels to specific games, then either fail to buy them or savage them for reasons that are far removed from what they claim to be the main appeal of those games for them. If some indie dev was to release say a Thief clone, and if flaws like poor voice acting or lack of animation polish were present, very Thief fans who are asking for such games would mock and attack it for those reasons.

Prey is essentially a counterexample to this idea. The vast majority of SS2 fans I've seen talk about it like it a lot, despite it not really being a clear improvement over that game.

Similarly, a lot of Thief fans will play T2 or TDM fan missions with basically no production values whatsoever. So if an indie Thief-clone emerged with good stealth mechanics and level design, it certainly wouldn't be slammed for bad production values.

Of course, whether it would be commercially successful is another thing, but it really doesn't take that much to satisfy the core audience, in this genre at least.

Interesting comment: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/05/19/this-is-a-golden-age-of-games/#comment-2439075

Probably true as well. Prey would've likely gained like 5-10 Metacritic points just by impressing upon reviewers that they're not playing nuDeusEx or Bioshock.

 

[flyingjohn]

Oh this is glorious.
Modern gamers complain that their favorite genre isn't selling and will cease to exist.
Kinda reminds me of people that liked actual role playing games and got told by the same people that"nobody wants crpg,everybody wants call of duty and action games masquerading as rpg so deal with it".

 

[Lyric Suite]

I do remember there being a very glowing and large media coverage of Oblivion when it came out but i think that had more to do with journalists being themselves clueless than any magic marketing skill coming from Bethesda.

Maybe the journalists' praise of Oblivion had something to do with Bethesda's marketing

No, i think they genuinely thought they were praising a masterpiece. Those retards actually thought they were being sophisticated connoisseurs by recommending that shit to the masses.

Of course, i'm biased here since i just can't bring myself to acknowledge Bethesda can actually be competent in anything, including something like marketing.

 

[decaf]

Lol what bullshit.

Voting with your wallet doesn't apply to AAA publishers.

Your purchase doesn't affect AAA publishers. There are millions of sales for every AAA game. 5000 more or less sales from RPS or Codex grognards won't make difference.

Your complaint doesn't affect AAA publishers. AAA has spent 20 years making cawadooties, and 20 years making every installment worse and more garbage, and they get richer every year. And they'll keep doing it, because there's tens of millions of idiots who'll keep buying.

The firms behind them could be creating more military shooters or zombie survival games or cynically microtransacted horrors instead.

Want less "more military shooters or zombie survival games or cynically microtransacted horrors" by buying more? Sales numbers are bullshit. Sales being okay just means they keep doing whatever they're doing.

Will we still be happily drowning in Games Like These in the years to come if publishers lose their financial faith in them?

Wanna write what exactly you want or don't want to see, so you get more "Games Like These"? Complain all you want. AAA don't listen and they don't have to listen. Anything they make sells.

When sales of a franchise tanks like Mass Effect, they don't give any thought as to why, or do anything to remedy their mistakes. They'll just kill the franchise and make new garbage based on the garbage that killed the previous game, and people will buy it and like it.

 

[Outlander]

Now, your're saying that young audiences who never played Deus Ex or Hitman 2 should be able to appreciate the new games more but when you deliver a watered-down, simplified experience

But the new Hitman is not a "watered-down, simplified experience". They actually listened to the fans and tried to get back to the roots.

Latest Hitman had problems such as single player always online and episodic content, among others.