From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Damned Registrations]

If the option to do Darklurker makes that stretch non linear then the option to do any of the optional bosses in DS3 should count for the same reason.

My overall issue with you edgy DS2 fanboys isn't that DS2 is a terrible game, it's that everything you praise about it is shit. It made a lot of great mechanical improvements, like the way poise and parrying worked. It had a handful of more interesting spells than DS1 (and like, 30 that could have been interesting but do no damage) Agility... was a thing. I'd say it's neither good nor bad. Ditto for power stancing. Ditto for bonfire ascetics.

But no, the shit you like about DS2 are extremely linear areas like the shrine of amana, which is not so much a swamp as a huge fucking shooting gallery on an invisible bridge. You love the worst boss fights in the game, which are just slow, tedious waiting games where you spend 12 seconds waiting to dodge roll, poke once, and then wait another 12 seconds for a particular attack to punish while casually walking out of the way of everything else.

I think the only point you praise about it that is actually legit is the new enemy placements in NG+, but I never felt compelled to do a NG+ run because you can just bonfire ascetic anyways, and if you DID use any bonfire ascetics you've effectively ruined a NG+ run by making certain areas retarded. Not to mention NG+ has always been mostly tedium in the DS games, since everything just gets hp bloated instead of having new skillsets or anything. Having to backstab fish everything in the shrine of amana 6 times instead of 3 doesn't sound like a great time. Fuck, there's a mechanic the series should have killed. Spending half a fight watching an enemy get up off the ground while fucking invincible is cancer. If he's flat on his ass and I'm nearby he should be dead. If that's too OP then make them immune to knowdowns and make the backstab something quick instead of a cinematic 'experience'.

And your complaints about DS2 are fucking childish rants about callbacks to older games, which every game has been pretty bad about. DS3 at least had a thematic reason for it, and on the whole was by far the most creative with it's enemies. You complain about it being non linear but there's almost no point in the game that doesn't open up at least 2 boss fights at once until the (much shorter) endgame and the areas themselves have far more routes through them. You praise Fume Knight and Alonne because of fucking emotes while DS3 has way more of that exact sort of thing. The only legit complaints about DS3 I've heard are that they nerfed magic into the fucking ground. Pretty much anything else wrong with the game was wrong with DS2 or DS1 as well, if not the whole series. The more active playstle where you spend 95% of your time either dodging, attacking, or out of stamina, is WAY better than the old model of being at full stamina for the whole fight while you wait around. I've got no idea how anyone can prefer something like the alonne fight to something like abyss watchers, aldritch, princes, other princes, etc. The 2 stage mechanic the bosses have makes them far more interesting than they'd have been otherwise. The weapon variety is far better, with actual varied movesets instead of just fashion souls on top of stat changes that are either trivial scaling, or crippling split damage. Which DS3 fixed btw. You can use split damage weapons just fine. You're welcome.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Ya ... I have no idea how you can play DS2 and come away with that impression but all right.

Because it's fucking true. Looking Glass Knight. Demon of Song. Velstadt. Guardian Dragon. Ancient Dragon. Giant Lord. Throne Water. Nashandra. Eight fucking bosses in a row (woo you can skip one dragon, still have to visit him though) with literally not a single fucking side branch. I was bored to fucking tears by the end. Somehow nobody admits this. I'm guessing because you guys don't actually play any of the fucking games, judging by lines like 'LOL key to the seal only unlocks 4kings why would you want that?'

Talking shit about DS2 for a linear stretch while almost the entirety of DS3 is a linear stretch. I don't fucking get it......

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Wait, who here praised Shrine of Amana? That area was crap.
Everything after Drangleic was a bit of slog, really. DS1 at least had its end game areas spaced out a bit. DS2 endgame areas were nearly back to back and were a bit too long. They were pretty though, I'll give them that.

Fume knight is tough, but once you work out his tells he becomes a lot easier. I found the rebel's greatshield is surprisingly useful against his second phase, as most of his damage is dark + fire.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Wait, who here praised Shrine of Amana? That area was crap.
Everything after Drangleic was a bit of slog, really. DS1, at least had their end game areas spaced out a bit. DS2 endgame areas were nearly back to back. They were pretty though, I'll give them that.

Fume knight is tough, but once you work out his tells he becomes a lot easier. I found the rebel's greatshield is surprisingly useful against his second phase, as most of his damage is dark + fire.

Yes. Thank you. Fucking sanity at last.

Talking shit about DS2 for a linear stretch while almost the entirety of DS3 is a linear stretch.

Name me three spots in the game where you only have one boss to kill and it won't unlock two more boss fights.

 

[Lutte]

Talking shit about DS2 for a linear stretch while almost the entirety of DS3 is a linear stretch. I don't fucking get it......

Probably had an alcoholic mother and was dropped a little too often on the head as a child. He keeps deflecting everything, arguing beside the point (who said DS2 had better bosses than DS3? why the butthurt on fume and allone ? CTRL+F on the last 4 pages I can't even find a mention of them that compares them to DS3 bosses), wilfully ignoring similar flaws to what he criticizes, and the funniest of shits, mentioning Aldritch as an example of good bosses in a game that had a large roster of really good bosses you really have to pick this lonely garbage sitting in a pile of gold? There's nothing to Aldritch beside run to him, spam r1 or run around him if arrow cast, he teleports, run to him again, spam r1, there, the fight is done. When he goes melee he basically does nothing of worth, even if he hits you it's not the end of the world. That's a fight you considered memorable enough to mention alongside twin princes?

 

[Damned Registrations]

It wasn't a dude with a sword, so yeah, it was memorable enough. DS3 certainly had worse bosses, like Deacons and Wolnir and not-stormlord.

(who said DS2 had better bosses than DS3? why the butthurt on fume and allone ? CTRL+F on the last 4 pages I can't even find a mention of them that compares them to DS3 bosses

taviow was praising all the shitty knight bosses in DS2 as the best thing since sliced bread in the DS3 thread. Which is a pretty implicit comparison to DS3 bosses, I'd say. And when pressed on it, someone else gave me the reasoning that those two in particular are awesome bosses because one does an emote if you win without getting hit and another does a thing if you wear a suit of armor. That made them awesome boss fights. This is what I'm arguing against.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Which is a pretty implicit comparison to DS3 bosses, I'd say.

I think this is what people don't understand about what you're saying - you turn everything they say into a comparison to DS3, even if it had nothing to do with DS3. No, I was not comparing them... it's actually very surprising to me that just because I'm praising DS2 you understand I'm also automatically shitting on DS3... I was just praising DS2 bosses I think are very fun...

Not to mention it was weeks ago. You're taking something I said weeks ago in the DS3 thread, using it as part of your arguments in a different thread. Sorry, it's confusing.

I also didn't see anything so special with the spider. Fume Knight (the best DS2 boss), Sir Alonne, Lost Sinner (especially in NG+ and forwards), Watcher/Defender, Ruin Sentinels, etc. were more interesting IMO.

Funnily enough a common DS2 complaint is that it had too many knight bosses, and yet out of all bosses the best ones by far were generally humanoid. The monster ones like Demon of Song (MEH) were mostly meh.

This is the post I made he's talking about now. No, I was not implicitly shitting on DS3. My post was solely about how funny it is that the best DS2 bosses are knights, IMO. No, it had NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL to do with DS3 (even though it was the DS3 thread, I think I made it clear in the post that I was not talking about it).

It's also a post from May 29. Yes, almost a month ago. You're bringing it up NOW? Jesus. What the FUCK.

 

[Lutte]

It wasn't a dude with a sword, so yeah, it was memorable enough. DS3 certainly had worse bosses, like Deacons and Wolnir and not-stormlord.

Crystal Sage is pretty much aldritch too once you understand the gimmick and know which one you need to run to hit. "run, spam r1" fights.

No, I was not comparing them... it's actually very surprising to me that just because I'm praising DS2 you understand I'm also automatically shitting on DS3...

What he does is called autism and obsession. Even people who started souls games with DS3 wouldn't shit on a fight like Fume anyway. He's a two phase boss with attacks that punish bad/spammy rolling or positioning (direction of rolls), a lot of aggression, variations in his combos, and a very, very aggressive behavior toward player healing (running far away from him to drink estus is a lot less viable than drinking estus after dodge some of his combo and hugging his back).
He's a fight that would fit perfectly among DS3's boss rosters..

Allone isn't all that great though. He's like the allone trash mobs but with more hp, more damage, slightly faster weaboo katana runs and one ranged attacks that is heavily telegraphed. Meh. I don't like it. Fighting allone I felt like I just met an oversized version of Iron Keep's mobs.

 

[Lutte]

Also, yes, Knight/humanoid-ish enemies with large weapons bosses in general are the better designed in the series, with very few exception.
In DS1 4kings (their appearance might not look knightly but their moveset very much is), Ornstein&Smough, Artorias, Gwyn (when not parry cheesed) were the best bosses of the game. Kalameet and Manus are the only two non-purely humanoid fights that were actually good. Everything else is garbage.

Even DS3 doesn't really scape that fate. Demon Princes is the weakest boss of the Ringed City, with so much downtime during his special attacks (laser or meteor summon) where you can just basically r1 spam until stagger and critical hit. The wolf doesn't even begin to compare to Friede in Ariandel.

DS3 did manage to make the non human fights look more spectacular visually but it's still among the trash pile content and is not deserving of being mentioned in a top anything. Pontiff, Dancer, NK, Watchers, Dragonslayer, Gundyr, Lothric, Cinder, Friede, Gael all utterly destroy the "creature type" bosses.

Midir is mostly an endurance fight. Attacks that are easy to avoid, the laser is one shot worthy in NG+ but you can avoid it without dodging, just running toward him slightly diagonally to not be within the range of the first straight line of hit. But that amount of HP.. holy shit. It's a nice spectacle type fight and I enjoyed it the first time but going through NG+ you start to feel a little less complacent about the design.

 

[Arnust]

Alonne is pretty great and the set piece is high up there, but his charge move is so exploitable it's not even funny and a Greatshield is easy mode. My preferred playstyle usually gives him a chance (light armor, no shields, PS) but it's really doable for the build most people have in their first time, which is weird as it is mandatory to fight Fume first.

And I think that the Demon Princes are not only the best fight in the DLC, but also possibly the game and the best in the "duo" type. It's mostly down to virtue of the interplay between them being a challenge and not just an annoyance coming from two AI trying to fight you without acknowledging the other. It has a great pacing, some mechanical details, it's boss weapon kinda stinks but it's fucking awesome and is one of those few in the game that actually fits the new pace. Oh and hyper armor works without making it trivial, which is refreshing.

Midir is mostly an endurance fight. Attacks that are easy to avoid, the laser is one shot worthy in NG+ but you can avoid it without dodging, just running toward him slightly diagonally to not be within the range of the first straight line of hit. But that amount of HP.. holy shit.

It's not only that but he also has RIDICULOUS resistance stats, almost up to 50%, and he also ignores every form of hyper armor. Imagine my plight of trying to fight him with my super tank build, with the Millwood Bow and Ledo's Hammer on NG+. It was bar none the most tedious and frustrating (in a bad way) experience I've had in Souls. Summoning makes it even worse and it's even more aggravating that one of the worst dragon bosses is also at the same time the last, or the penultimate, final boss of the series.

Also I don't think I've ever actually been hit by Aldrich's Melee hits. They're rare enough and they have a small and awkward hitbox in his long body. The only damage you're really getting is the fire he leaves behind while teleporting to the other same corner of the room (for real, why aren't his teleports random. Fucking Idol of Fools understood this), some loose projectiles and that rare tail spin. I'm not saying arrows because remaining for more than a frame in it is an instakill especially in phase 2. In fact, once I killed him while his arrow volley was going on and it killed me even after having supposedly beaten the boss. It even triggered the cutscene and teleport to the Dancer fight.

I think a huge strength of DS2 levels, in general, as with the game at large, is their content and density. Yes, even Amana (which in SOTFS has way less casters, who were nerfed to hell on the original's patches anyway, and the problem is the pick n'mix of enemies from the whole game with small platforms and slowing water along death falls and lumbering hollows), has the Milfanito quest leading to the side area and the humanity monument along a bunch of items and Vendrick's room. It also had a unique couple of gimmicks; the interplay with the glowbugs, the singers, and the sleeping mutants, along the punishment for rolling instead of taking cover or sticking with flame butterflies and lighting sconces in exchange if being safe from death falls. And to a lesser extent, there's an assortment with smaller branches to some ashes, Red Iron Twinsword and the first copy of Sunlighy Blade. And lastly the boss, while nothing perplexing, it's not aggravating and has its own set of gimmicks.

It's this economical approach to levels; you'll always stay longer in them. There's plain just more to do and see on them. Sure, the world design almost always having paths ripe for the taking being bad (somehow), but the levels themselves not only do that but come across as more varied in exchange of believability (Bowser's Fortress). Architectural styles changing and "biomes" as well, it all generally conveys better the expanse of the game world, rightfully so being the longest Souls game. While 3's art style is more immediately appealing, you're always in a gothic fantasy nightmare with Hollows everywhere. And when they dare use another style, more ancient and ruinous, then, to a fault, goes and takes place on a fucking swamp. The Ringed City (I wasn't really counting on DLC until now) is the most striking, and even while being mostly Gothic as well it's s huge pity it had to boil down to a big street down and then back instead of the spanning city. I wish it could also have expanded more on overgrowth.

1 and 3 most certainly have less, empty and simple square room spaces. It always irks me to find yet another secret room or bonfire area with nothing besides that. But there's also more rooms in the first place.

I'm ranting, but I feel like this is the boon of 2. You start talking and never damn run out of minutes and features. I just also remembered all the invisible hollows and hidden butterflies that are damn everywhere, and then later the Priestess Eye from the DLC unveiling all invisible objects and enemies in the game.

And it's fine if you value this, but it's not a wrong reason to appreciate it. If anything it's the "right" one. Playing first time straight to the point, down the main path with your sword and board and never changing gear, then done with it, is most likely one of the most subpar experiences Souls has to offer. There's no denying that. But lasting appeal wise, talking you and me, it's the Souls title that does this the best. 3 lost many things in the path to streamlining and offering the most "refined" Souls experience and we'll never exactly know why or how, but it loses this sense of wonder really fast.

 

[Seaking4]

Ya ... I have no idea how you can play DS2 and come away with that impression but all right.

Because it's fucking true. Looking Glass Knight. Demon of Song. Velstadt. Guardian Dragon. Ancient Dragon. Giant Lord. Throne Water. Nashandra. Eight fucking bosses in a row (woo you can skip one dragon, still have to visit him though) with literally not a single fucking side branch. I was bored to fucking tears by the end. Somehow nobody admits this. I'm guessing because you guys don't actually play any of the fucking games, judging by lines like 'LOL key to the seal only unlocks 4kings why would you want that?'

Ok I guess. The context of the surrounding posts was the beginning of the game so I just figured you were also talking about the beginning of the game. It's actually 6 bosses and 3 optional ones (Vendrick, Ancient Dragon, and Aldia) but I get your point. I didn't have a problem with that stretch and I think saying that you were bored to tears by the end is an obvious exaggeration: "oh no I have to go to this new area and fight a new boss". On replays I could understand some frustration but there is actually a lot of side content in there. You get a key to the DLCs, you hit the third access point for the Dark Chasm, Aerie is entirely optional, Sanctum can be finished by fighting like 5 enemies and the entire other part of the map is optional, and when you go fight the Giant Lord there is at least two / three (depending on if you count the dragon in Brightstone) optional memory areas).

Anyways, most of the non-linearity from DS3 comes from just straight up murdering a friendly NPC at the beginning of the game and the grand archives are inexplicably walled off.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Wow, is DS3 that linear? You'd think they would bring back ways to loop back to the hub.
Do you have one for DS1?

 

[Arnust]

I guess you TECHNICALLY do loop to the hub once and that's with the Untended Graves. Kind of. That map is also not registering for the DLC and maybe the SOTFS changes. A Ds1 chart would probably be a mess with trying to record interconnectedness rather than branches. A metro map could maybe work?

Also yea, progression only opens up twice in the main path:
- On Crucifixion woods, where you can go to Farron for the actual way forward or to the Cathedral for the key item later, but it's kind of weird because you *should* just do Cathedral first to go more aligned with the difficulty progression and not need to backtrack, yet it's unassuming and tucked away to a corner of the map while you can see the way to Farron from the entrance.
- And going to Anor Londo or to the Profaned Cathedral. Again, you should do the latter first as again it is "closer" and generally a shorter and mute simple area with a joke boss, while the other way has one of the toughest bosses of the game halfway.

Then, there's the few optional bosses and areas on the side. You don't have to kill the great wood even if you're just limiting yourself for not doing it, and later there's the King's Gardens to then get the ability to visit Archdragon Peak and going forward to the Untended Graves. Only the middle is really a full area but I digress. Of course there's also the DLC opening deceitfully early and the second after the previous DLC or at the very end of of the game.

PS: Ah and I forgot the Izalith ruins. And fighting the Dancer early counts but I was talking mostly without accounting for progression breaks.

 

[toro]

Wow, is DS3 that linear? You'd think they would bring back ways to loop back to the hub.
Do you have one for DS1?

 

[Arnust]

Now those are a joy to look at. Albeit 2's is oddly reserved with showing the full extent of the areas and 3's kinda confusing with its scale. Plus it's cheating to connect Firelink, boo!

 

[Damned Registrations]

Wow, is DS3 that linear? You'd think they would bring back ways to loop back to the hub.
Do you have one for DS1?

See, this is a fair comparison of the two games, unlike the retarded map that pretends the cathedral is a side area. And I don't think DS3 looks all that bad here by comparison. The way DS2 is laid out is awful, all those areas leading to the 4 lord souls (totally not fanservice like DS3 has, we swear) are glorified hallways.

On replays I could understand some frustration but there is actually a lot of side content in there. You get a key to the DLCs, you hit the third access point for the Dark Chasm, Aerie is entirely optional, Sanctum can be finished by fighting like 5 enemies and the entire other part of the map is optional, and when you go fight the Giant Lord there is at least two / three (depending on if you count the dragon in Brightstone) optional memory areas).

Sorry for playing the game when it came out without doing a mage build? I had no side content there aside from the option to hit a big stupid dragon that one shots you and has 10k hp. The memories was probably the best part of that whole stretch, but it's a tiny amount of optional content. I'll give you Vendrick too I guess, but he barely counts as a fight.

I played through the whole game, felt kinda meh, and later did the first couple DLCs when they came out before losing interest. The boss fights meant for groups were fun to solo, and the gimmick items were amusing but ultimately kinda pointless. I've tried going back to the game but SotFS fucks up a lot of shit and it honestly just feels like a huge waste of time, because the fighting itself feels like chopping wood with a hammer and I could get as powerful as I'll ever be in the game by picking basically any normal weapon and killing rotten enough times to buy an endless supply of healing and a bunch of stats. At that point, none of the loot matters, you may as well run through every area without fighting or exploring at all.

The part that made me sick of the game was I explored these areas as best I could, constantly hoping to find a shortcut or alternate route or something, and at best I got stuff like the chariot boss, which is basically the same as the rotten greatwood in DS3, just a huge fucking disappointment leading nowhere. All the areas in DS2 aside from the hub, only lead to one other real area. That's what feels linear to me. If I had any talent at making maps I'd put one together that tacks the shrine of winter after brightstone cove and aldia's keep after the crypt, because that'd be pretty fucking accurate to how the game actually played.

 

[Lutte]

Alonne is pretty great and the set piece is high up there, but his charge move is so exploitable it's not even funny and a Greatshield is easy mode. My preferred playstyle usually gives him a chance (light armor, no shields, PS) but it's really doable for the build most people have in their first time, which is weird as it is mandatory to fight Fume first.

Is it really mandatory to fight fume first? I didn't try to fight the dweeb first but it seemed like his area was reachable before going downward.

All of his moves are kinda meh for a DLC boss, except for ONE single instance, the jump where he slams the ground, the hitbox on the attack is far larger than the katana and the first two times he did it during the fight I got hit. That one actually requires good dodge timing and learning the particular move to avoid the damage. Didn't use greatshields, two handed mastodon halberd, the late game boss killer. Still, I killed him on the first attempt despite having lost some estus to that move and panic heals that were punished (I'll give him that, he's pretty good at punishing healing attempts). I would have felt more appreciation for him if he was a midgame, main boss, not a DLC boss because From kept setting expectations of "something more" when it comes to DLC content and with this guy we just didn't have it.

The fact that I met him after the Fume also completely made the fight anticlimactic. If he didn't have that glorious battle arena, which is really pretty and appealing, he would be quickly forgotten as a boss.

It's mostly down to virtue of the interplay between them being a challenge and not just an annoyance coming from two AI trying to fight you without acknowledging the other

The interplay is a gimmick. You can mostly ignore the one that acts as a ranged opponent and just wail the melee guy. They only become a threat when they both become a melee range attacker but that just turns the fight into a "sprint away until they separate or calm down". Heck, Pontiff's clone is more of an annoyance if you didn't learn to kill it when it spawns.
I rate their phase 1 duo to be merely slightly above the phase 2 of Friede mainly due to the possibility of both taking up the melee role.

Darklurker is imho the best executed duo fight in terms of intensity. It's just a pity, or maybe a boon for people who struggle with it, that he only splits in two late in the fight. Interestingly, I rarely died to him in the many runs of ds2 I did but I've never felt so much excitement and concentration in finding a real safe opening to hit back at one of the two or moment to heal in a duo fight than I did with him.

hyper armor works without making it trivial, which is refreshing.

For the vast majority of boss fights, anything that can't be slightly stunned ala abyss watcher or friede, there's no real point in being able to trade one hit of anything heavy vs just wailing constantly a fast weapon and maybe losing a hit to you being stunned. Fast weapons are the way to go for damage, even more so when you have bosses like the prince which during phase 2 has attacks that let you empty your entire stamina bar and more while he charges up.

Imagine my plight of trying to fight him with my super tank build, with the Millwood Bow and Ledo's Hammer on NG+

Full on heavy build in DS3? Are you a masochist?

who were nerfed to hell on the original's patches anyway,

The nerfs in my opinion turned what could have been a disaster into a strong area. If you're not some fucking pussy trying to kill everything with a bow or spells the area makes for pretty dynamic fights. My strategy is just run to the casters, ignore the melee opponents, R2 then run away to the closest structure that can hide me from spells, hit whatever I aggroed, then go kill next caster, rince repeat. It's not rose tinted glasses, I just replayed DS2 last in my recent DS binge (DS1 -> DS3 -> DS2).
I like the way the area is designed and the amount of movement and care you have to take if you want to do the area efficiently rather than punish yourself with shit ranged cheese.

It is, by far, the best execution of a "impeded movement area" of the souls series. DS1 Blighttown's swamp has no real threat or interesting combat, only that annoying poison gimmick. DS3 has the most swamps of the series : Road of Sacrifice, Farron, Earthen Peak, the back area of Ringed City, and arguably, although it doesn't impede your movement in the classic ways, the Smoldering Lake, which an empty area devoid of real content for the most part with nothing but that shitty ballista chasing you throughout the area.. and you can even disable it later on. All these DS3 swamps are just utter, meaningless garbage areas where if you even have half a brain remaning you would not bother killing mobs, just run past everything/dodge/dagger quickstep, take your loot and leave, which is easily done because DS3 doesn't understand how to design levels and encounters.

It's this economical approach to levels; you'll always stay longer in them. There's plain just more to do and see on them. Sure, the world design almost always having paths ripe for the taking being bad (somehow), but the levels themselves not only do that but come across as more varied in exchange of believability (Bowser's Fortress).

DS2 has some really nice pacing going for it too. The alternance between moments of somewhat calm and moments of intensity. There's no real danger in dragon aerie but it sure is a moment of well earned peace when you reach it and you just gawk at the view and the bridge. Similar moment walking through the chains of Brume Tower and so on.

- On Crucifixion woods, where you can go to Farron for the actual way forward or to the Cathedral for the key item later, but it's kind of weird because you *should* just do Cathedral first to go more aligned with the difficulty progression and not need to backtrack, yet it's unassuming and tucked away to a corner of the map while you can see the way to Farron from the entrance.

Yeah, the way I explored the swamp before farron I ended up finding Farron before meeting the crystal sage but somehow I instinctively turned away and went back to explore the last corner of the previous swamp because my heart was not ready for another trash area and I wondered if there finally was another path to find. I even missed the bonfire closest to crystal sage the first time I did the area, it's telling how much I wanted to actually do that fucking shit content.

The cathedral was really, really good though. One of the few moments where a DS3 level actually made me want to explore every single nook and cranny and not just run past things.. ironically, that same area is the one that is meant to teach players that they don't need to kill everything in a souls game and can run past enemies because the enemies outside of the cathedral have infinite respawn.. it's.. poetic. It's like they expected players to not really engage the content of the rest of the game and wanted to teach them how to git gud at running levels early on.

You don't have to kill the great wood even if you're just limiting yourself for not doing it

On my first run of the game, I kind of assumed this was the boss that would lead me to the next area.. the game start was just much more straightjacketed than previous games, I felt weird when I saw I could only go to Highwall of Lothric from Firelink. That was actually one of the nicer moments of DS3 when you kill that boss and realize it doesn't lead to the next area and you need to explore more of the previous zone.

I wouldn't say avoiding the boss limits you much. Apart from the hollow slayer, few boss weapons are worth looking at, beside the real nice animation/unique moves they have. Too many also have higher than lowest base req for things like Int and Faith which is supremely gay in a game that has garbage magic. I ain't levelling those stats man, fuck that shit. I respecced and did a Friede Scythe run once, it's fun to use its combo weapon art but.. let's be honest, even with all the right stats for it while my defensive stats were glass canon territory it was less effective to kill bosses than my trusty old starter Sellswords. It's good AoE reach for dealing with common groups of enemies though.

BTW killing the greatwood locks you out of a DS3 covenant, I only knew of its existence after I finished the game, read all spoilers possible and went in NG+ to the half hidden area where you meet a cage dude that leads you to the covenant guy. You need to do that before killing the wood, or be in good terms with Sirris, to be able to find the covenant.

Plus it's cheating to connect Firelink, boo!

Should Archdragon peak even be on a map too? if you are going to do that then map DS2's memories and shit too.
What the hell is that place meant to be? You strike a pose in a specific location and you just suddenly appear there. It also isn't affected by the eclipse unlike areas like Undead Settlement. Dunno if some people missed that here, but basically at some point in the late game, most of the outdoor areas of the game have their skybox changed to Lothric Castle's eclipse.
Archdragon Peak does not care though.
Irithyll/Anor Londo also do not share the same skybox but the explanation goes back to DS1 when you destroy the illusion of Gwynevere. That place is under a permanent night sky.

all those areas leading to the 4 lord souls (totally not fanservice like DS3 has, we swear)

Yes, a mechanical mention in passing with barely any more reference to the actual people is the same as bringing back Anor Londo outright, literally a copy paste of a part of Anor Londo but now it looks grey like the rest of the game being such a drab piece of grey and brown shit, a remnant of Demon's Ruins, a covenant AND boss fight of Artorias cosplayers, LITERALLY FIRELINK SHRINE, the old wolf of farron, Gwyn as the end boss once again during his phase 2, Andre the blacksmith being met as soon as you enter firelink shrine (the one game with only one blacksmith in the entire game and you meet it as soon as you enter your hub area and it's fucking Andre of all people..), the Ghrus which are basically Oolacile's abyss tainted people (if you were too daft to notice it, Farron is actually Darkroot Garden/Oolacile. It just mutated), THE FUCKING ASYLUM DEMON, and so on and on and on because the game literally never shut the fuck up about DS1.

This isn't to say DS2 never had shitty DS1 callbacks. The old dragonslayer is indefensible. It's stupid and should not have been in the game. If you mention things like this I will 100% agree with you and the game would have been better off not having a boss at all in that area instead of having that copypasta shit. But DS2 never went as far as DS3 in the suck the fanboy's dick arena.
In a way, going through DS3 feels like.. experiencing a fanfic written by a 14yo fangirl.

 

[Damned Registrations]

LITERALLY LORD souls, bring back Ornstein outright, vendrick is Allant, basilisks literally stolen directly from DS1, the dragons (jesus christ enough with the fucking dragons) nearly all the covenants from DS1, Nashandra is the daughter of manus even though that makes no fucking sense, Shalquioor is the cat from darkroot garden, a fucking sunlight altar because DS2 just can't stop riding the internet's dick, rat authority was a Sif ripoff because they couldn't be assed to make an actual boss, massive fanservice around the moonlight sword that should be an easter egg, looking glass knight ripped off demon's souls as well, like three versions of blight town, iron keep is sen's fortress again, with ceaseless discharge as the boss, alonne knights are basically carbon copies of silver knights, lennigrast is andre and mcduff is vamos, and in case you were too daft to notice, the green herald is a reference to princess fluffy tail and drangleic itself is a huge reference to the painted world... but yeah super original game.

I don't actually care about any of that, you're just an edgy hypocrite for pretending it doesn't exist. Both games are plenty original. The Ghrus are nothing like the monsters you fight in oolacile. Andre is a waste of space sure, but every other npc in the shrine is full of subtlties and has interesting questlines. It's retarded to get so worked up over easter eggs in a series that is rife with them.

 

[sullynathan]

Wait, who here praised Shrine of Amana?

Pretty sure a few here and other places have praised it as a good level. You can find more in the dark souls 2 thread

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Wait, who here praised Shrine of Amana?

Pretty sure a few here and other places have praised it as a good level. You can find more in the dark souls 2 thread

But it isn't though. Its a pretty level, I'll give it that, but its basically just a more annoying blight town, except without ways of mitigating the annoying parts.
In DS1 blightown is annoying because of the snipers and the poisoned mud stopping you from running, but if you have the rusted ring and the spider shield, both of which can be obtained before blight town, it makes the area a lot better. Not to mention the snipers don't respawn. The poison is irritating, but its nowhere near as bad as DS2 poison, and they do give you some poison resist gear early on.

Shrine of Amana feels like it was designed to waste your time. Its a long, linear level where you can't really go off the path to explore without dying. Water slows you down, so you can't really run past anything, and there are a lot of enemies, most of them with a homing ranged attack. To top it off, the last stretch has those stupid beetles that block your way and break your stuff if you try to run past and a cheap invader with instant death dark magic spells. Its a boring, tedious level that's completely obligatory with no neat bypasses (like blight town, where you can skip most of the level if you take the Drake Valley Path. Its also faster to run through).
The only reliable way I found that I can play through the area in peace with minimal frustration is to slowly snipe every fucker at long range with a bow, because I know if I run through it's going to be a waste of my time.

 

[Jezal_k23]

If anything you gotta agree DS2 is more subtle with its DS1 references. DS3 feels like it's begging for you to look at the references and screaming in your ears "REMEMBER ANDRE? LOOK! HE'S FROM YOUR FAVORITE GAME, DARK SOULS 1!!!!!!", "O BOY, DID YOU JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENED? IT'S ANOR LONDO, FROM YOUR FAVORITE GAME!!!!!" "OOOOOOOOO MAN, IT'S FIRELINK SHRINEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, ISN'T THAT AAAAAWESOME?"

Other than the Old Dragonslayer, I don't remember DS2 being so obnoxiously fanservice-y.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

If anything you gotta agree DS2 is more subtle with its DS1 references. DS3 feels like it's begging for you to look at the references and screaming in your ears "REMEMBER ANDRE? LOOK! HE'S FROM YOUR FAVORITE GAME, DARK SOULS 1!!!!!!", "O BOY, DID YOU JUST SEE WHAT HAPPENED? IT'S ANOR LONDO, FROM YOUR FAVORITE GAME!!!!!"

Other than the Old Dragonslayer, I don't remember DS2 being so obnoxiously fanservice-y.

Eh, dunno about that. DS2 was also pretty on the nose with its references.
You have the warrior of sunlight shrine in earthen peak...for some reason
You have the obvious hints that Tark was created by Seathe...for some reason
You have the obvious hints that Freya ate Seathe's soul...somehow
You have the great lord souls in general....which exists for reasons.

Though to be fair, to me that was more of a side effect of From seemingly wanting to make their own thing, but being obligated to make a sequel. Which is why they added little out of place nods but didn't quite force it in as hard as they could have.

As opposed to DS3, which seems to be (haven't played it yet, mind you, but I've been keeping track) more "fuck it, they want a souls game, we'll give them a souls game. Get all that shit from DS1 and DS2, mash it together and shove some crap about angels in there to keep Vaati busy"

 

[Seaking4]

Ya those second set of maps are much better. I just build the first two that are on that wiki.

Comparing DS2 copies of DS1 (Orenstein being back is indefensible I'll grant you that) to DS3 is hilarious. Half the shit you referenced isn't even a reference and the other half is in DS3 copied even more blatantly. DS3 literally brought back areas of the game and as for fan service I'd like to direct you to the bridges in Anor Londo (totally cool and original area am I right?) with the archers. That was a literal eye roll.

I don't know what the mage build reference has to do with Dragon Sanctum. You literally only have 5 enemies to kill in Dragon Sanctum unless you do the side content. Dragon Aerie and Sanctum can be done incredibly quickly and it's that way by design.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I was referring to the fact that you don't get access to the spooky dark edgy club unless you have high enough int.

 

[Arnust]

Get all that shit from DS1 and DS2, mash it together and shove some crap about angels in there to keep Vaati busy"

The thing is that the DS2 references are so half hearted that it's not even good at being some sort of all-starts, love letter to the series. Big sad.

Nashandra is the daughter of manus even though that makes no fucking sense, Shalquioor is the cat from darkroot garden, a fucking sunlight altar because DS2 just can't stop riding the internet's dick, rat authority was a Sif ripoff because they couldn't be assed to make an actual boss, massive fanservice around the moonlight sword that should be an easter egg, looking glass knight ripped off demon's souls as well, like three versions of blight town, iron keep is sen's fortress again, with ceaseless discharge as the boss, alonne knights are basically carbon copies of silver knights, lennigrast is andre and mcduff is vamos, and in case you were too daft to notice, the green herald is a reference to princess fluffy tail and drangleic itself is a huge reference to the painted world... but yeah super original game.

She's not a daughter, it's a fragment of him that is at the same time pure humanity and thus got its own conscience based around a single aspect of humanity, just like Elana and Alsanna. All they have in common is being cats. How does the Glass Knight reference anything but being a knight with an explicit title on a castle...? The Sen's Fortress equivalent is Earthen Peak. Yes, I'm sure that silver knights were samurais from the get go. Lenigrast and McDuff reference more the Demon's Souls Blacksmiths if anything at all. The Emerald Herald is, as well, more similar to her equivalent in Demon's Souls even to the mechanical level and most of her characteristic idle animations are brought back. They even got a similar role in the story. I find funny that you acknowledgge her backstory, but people trying to find immortality and a way out of The Curse using dragons was a thing in DS1 already but had nothing to do with Priscilla. And lastly, the decayed realm you're in being dream-like and strange is characteristic of all the series.

You're right on the money for McDuff being just like Vamos, though. Both have a skeleton. Fucking obvious fanservice, man.

You're contradicting yourself again. 3 has little fanservice but there's a reason. 2 the opposite. But it doesn't matter anyway. Then:

See, this is a fair comparison of the two games, unlike the retarded map that pretends the cathedral is a side area. And I don't think DS3 looks all that bad here by comparison. The way DS2 is laid out is awful, all those areas leading to the 4 lord souls (totally not fanservice like DS3 has, we swear) are glorified hallways.

But the Cathedral is a side area. Literally. It leads to a dead end and it's only mandatory for holding a key item. This design is hugely common in 2, yet there it's bad. Bringing the "hallways" word as a negative and comparatively positive to 3 needs some brass balls, there.

Is it really mandatory to fight fume first? I didn't try to fight the dweeb first but it seemed like his area was reachable before going downward.

Yeah, you can go there first, you need a key and to turn on the furnace. But you need Iron King's Crown. Depending on what you think about how the Memories work and what exactly happened on Alonne's memory (it's commonly rumoured that you incarnate the Old Iron King and do the same in other memories).

Full on heavy build in DS3? Are you a masochist?

Yes. I've said it before, but playing any other new build than that caused me literal physical pain. I tried to be a Paladin at the start like I always do with Souls but I figured out how bad of an idea that was pretty early. I stopped with it just on the gates of NG+ 2.

There's no real danger in dragon aerie but it sure is a moment of well earned peace when you reach it and you just gawk at the view and the bridge.

Kind of. In the other hand it has these fuckers: