Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Teudogar 2 (topic restored)

Discussion in 'Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome' started by Wolf Mittag, Sep 17, 2006.

  1. Wolf Mittag Liturgist

    Wolf Mittag
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    OK, this thread apparently got deleted (perhaps during manual spam removal), so I'm re-posting what I had archived.

    Regarding the topic, in general, I do want to produce a 2nd part of Teudogar, but at present, I don't have the time, since I'm working on a different project (fantasy RPG 'DARGHUL').
     
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  2. Wolf Mittag Liturgist

    Wolf Mittag
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    Teudogar 2
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    The Codex Forums Forum Index -> Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome
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    Erik
    Joined: 27 Jun 2005
    Posts: 6

    Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Teudogar 2

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    Ok, here goes some ideas. They might or might not have been mentioned before. Either way I will try to summarise what I hope and wish for Teudogar 2 to become.

    Game world:
    Vast. I imagine the whole Teudogar world to be reachable, along with new areas. Across the Rhine one could reach and travel into parts of the provinces Germania Inferior and Superior, Rhaetia and maybe even Belgica. The new Darghul engine makes this possible, right?


    This makes for a world with immense depth with everything from the darkest german wilderness to big roman cities. Cross rivers, meet people, do quests and experience the world of the time. Historical places like Mount Kalkriese in the Teutoburg Forest where Varus met his doom, along with Oppidum Ubiorum and other cities/towns could be part of it.

    Main Quest:
    Teudogar starts in 12 B.C. and ends around the same time. T2 could start somewhere around 8-5 B.C. Roman power is starting to spread over the new province Germania Magna. This is an exciting time and place. Anarchy and tribal freedom is being challenged by law and administration. Ancient customs and traditions are being overturned.

    You are a young nobleman, neither particularly wealthy nor influential. You have witnessed how the Romans through alliances and military power have laid the area between the Rhine and the Elbe rivers under them. This has been a catastrophe for your tribe, it has lost many of its members and riches in the war. An unstable peace has now laid itself down and the Romans have pronounced the area as part of the Empire. The Legionaries are still very present and the administrators and civil servants of the Emperor are staring to be.

    Ok, you get the picture. I am thinking of a story that stretches from the last years B.C. to 9 A.D., when
    either Legio XVII, XVIII, and XIX are destroyed in a devastating ambush in the Germanic wilderness, effectively ending the Roman expansion.
    or Germania Magna becomes a more peaceful part of the Empire.
    The story will then, because of its free form, continue until you wish to end it.
    This means a story that stretches 14-17+ years. Our character has to age and the world around him change. Is this possible? Perhaps an ongoing development with add-ons. I will get more into this later.
    On the road to becoming either “Arminius" or a prosperous Roman citizen, there will be hundreds of things to do.

    Side Quests (in no particular order):
    Increase your wealth and improve your skills and attributes, fight robbers, explore, etc.
    Join the Auxilia and fight with the Romans for a while (Arminius did). Many possible missions, escorts, attacks, scouting, assassinations, etc.
    Learn Latin
    Expand your Homestead. Buy livestock, build new houses, get more slaves, hire henchmen, etc.
    Become king of your tribe.
    Marry, have children. Marry again.
    Become Head Priest of your tribe.
    Raid other tribes, roman camps, roman provinces along with other noblemen and their henchmen. Catch slaves, livestock, plunder.
    Pay tribute to the roman tax collectors, or not.
    Handle over warriors to the roman ruxilia, or not
    Host Roman soldiers on your homestead, or not.
    Help friends and neighbours who have had misfortunes and risk starving.
    Learn new crafts (if you are so inclined) and skills.
    Do quests for merchants, escort them, obtain certain ojects.
    Hunt down bands of robbers, fugitives/outcasts, on someones behalf.
    ...etc...


    Weapons and equipment:
    Spears should by far be the most common weapon for non-Romans, every fighting man should carry at least one. Daggers/clubs could be the most common side arm with Axes being rare and Swords very rare.
    All warriors should equip a shield.
    All objects have a quality rating, Rough, Normal, Fine, determining how good and costly it is.
    Objects should not be able to be repaired back to 'new'. 'Hardly used' should be the best you can get a used object back to.
    Different colours for clothes. Clothes or cloth could be dyed. Most clothes would be off-white/brown/grey.

    Spears:
    Pila. A throwing spear. You can carry up to two. Difficult to remove from shields. Hard to obtain unless you are with the Romans.
    Light Spear. A light throwing spear. You can carry up to three. Easy to obtain.
    Spear. A medium spear for throwing and thrusting. You can carry one along with one/two light spear(s). Easy to obtain.
    Heavy Spear. A spear designed for thrusting, longer and heavier than others. not possible to throw. Easy to obtain.

    Swords:
    Gladius. High quality short sword. Hard to obtain unless you are with the Romans.
    Short Sword. A Gladius copy, not as good.
    Celtic sword. A Celtic longsword. Good quality, hard to obtain.
    Longsword/Sword. Your basic slashing, large bladed sword.
    Daggers.

    Other weapons or equipment:
    Slings. Very hard to master, mainly for Auxilia.
    Axe. Mainly a tool, not balanced for combat. Fairly common.
    Battle Axe. Not very common.
    Oak Club. Perhaps something more war-like than the 'stone-age' club seen in Teudogar (I'm talking graphics now ) Clubs were widely used I, believe. Perhaps two different types.

    Are bows out of the question? Trying to find some sources. It seems bow have been found in Denmark dating 7-3000 years back (the Holmegaard bow, Tybrind Vig bow), so why not in Germania? Make them very hard to use, connect strenght to damage/range and very hard to learn, get better at.

    Character system:
    Some sort of character creation should be worked out.
    Starting age should be 15-17, a child by today’s standards but a young adult in ancient Germania.
    Chose your background.
    Balance your attributes, skills, etc. within certain limits set by your background.
    Age, height and weight for all characters and NPC:s. Could be amusing to present the large difference in stature between Romans and Germans. Should reflect attributes (age – wisdom/knowledge, height, weight – strength).
    Many more skills, i.e. different skill for throwing or thrusting spears, fighting with longswords or shortswords , crafting armour or pottery, etc. They should still be graded in the Teudogar way though (bad, fair, etc).
    As in Teudogar any changes in attributes and skills will be very slow or sometimes non-existing.
    To attract different kinds of players add the option to reduce/increase effects of magic and/or make skills and attributes increase faster.

    Dynamic Game World:
    Elders die, children are born, travellers reach villages and homesteads. Children grow up and become warriors or farmers etc.
    Villages are plundered and re-built, people reach a new place and build a home.
    Slaves can be bought, sold, taken, etc. some might run away, others may refuse to be enslaved and rather die.
    Livestock can be bought, sold, taken.
    You and others can build new houses and expand existing ones.
    Henchmen can be recruited and given tasks.
    Food needs to be gathered in sufficient amounts or you and your family will starve.
    Horses. Could be used for fast travel and as equipment carriers. Buyable, sellable
    Attacks/raids on tribes. Join some other noblemen and free men to go on a raid together with yours and their henchmen to Gaul or some unfriendly tribe. Take plunder, slaves, burn the village, etc. People will eventually re-build/re-populate the villages.
    Merchants travel the area.
    Roman patrols travel the area.


    Thoughts…?

    Last edited by Erik on Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:06 pm; edited 3 times in total

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    Vistaer
    Joined: 01 Mar 2006
    Posts: 2

    Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Teudogar 2

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    Erik wrote:

    Game world:
    Vast. I imagine the whole Teudogar world to be reachable, along with new areas. Across the Rhine one could reach and travel into parts of the provinces Germania Inferior and Superior, Rhaetia and maybe even Belgica. The new Darghul engine makes this possible, right?


    This makes for a world with immense depth with everything from the darkest german wilderness to big roman cities. Cross rivers, meet people, do quests and experience the world of the time. Historical places like Mount Kalkriese in the Teutoburg Forest where Varus met his doom, along with Oppidum Ubiorum and other cities/towns could be part of it.



    I like this idea, but a massive world (especially if its one open world like Darghul) at 1x scale would be pretty hard, heh. I would like to see a Darhgul-like approach obviously to the majority of the world, however being able to visit more "inner roman" outposts would be awesome as well. Perhaps a massive world could exist like Darghul, then you can travel extensively outwards to certain points like you're saying through a more Teodogar 1 method.

    I also like your ideas for main quests... however, doing a whole lifetime is hard. Dunno if that could be reasonably done. Maybe the game should take place in two parts. One as a young man establishing yourself, then as a grown man. Things you do in the previous part (gather slaves/wealth, make enemies/allies) affect how things start in the next chapter. Also this could affect the way Teodogar II is released, in an episode-based format of two parts.

    Quote:

    Learn Latin

    I love this idea. Its one of the few things I wish you could have done in Teudogar. Perhaps it could be done imbetween the two parts as I mentioned. In part 1 you need to struggle with translating latin, while in the second part, if you learned it imbetween the two parts, you can simply read it normally (but in a special font so you know its latin you're reading)

    I also love all your other side quest Ideas

    Quote:

    Different colours for clothes. Clothes or cloth could be dyed. Most clothes would be off-white/brown/grey.



    Quality dyes and exotic textiles would be rare in germania, and a symbol of status. Something to be traded from from the romans and plundered in raid no doubt.

    On swords and weapons (and metal armor)... perhaps there should be 3 of each type. Iron, Bronze, and Steel. Steel being the strongest and mid-point of weight, Iron being second strongest and more durable than bronze, but the heaviest, and bronze being the weakest, but very nimble. So basically this affects the color of your arms and the duarbility/weight/defence (teh damage done shouldnt be effected. How well the condition is should, but if bronze deteriorates fast then you'll end up having that be weaker much sooner than an iron or steel counterpart)

    Good ideas on a character creation system by the way.

    The dynamic game world is SO hard though. As I suggested with having the two parts, your effects from the first part can be seen in the second. A village you sacked may be rebuilt by your older years though not as good as it was before. A village you invested in (your own probably) or sucked the marrow out of will either grow or falter by the second part.

    As far as run away slaves. You could do it as a quest. A slave runs. Until you find him, one slave will run each month. When you find the first one, you have to make an example of him. Depending on how compassionate/merciless you are, you will either get your slaves to respect or to fear you. Either way none will ever dare run from you again.

    I hate the food/family starving system though. If you're a noble, then you automatically have enough land to support your family. Your slaves/peasantry would starve before your family.

    One final thing...

    I think you should have multiple endings begining with two basic endings and then having sub-endings (think of how Fallout ended. There was your completion of the main quest then hearing about the fate of all the cities/groups you met in your travels)

    Examples:

    You rebel against the romans ending.

    You Drive them out. You unite your tribes. You die years later in your bed as a hero to your people.

    You drive them out. Overthrow the tribes and force them under your tyranical rule. You die as a result of being assassinated years later by an oppressed tribesman paid by a Roman agent.

    You drive them out. Overthrow the tribes and force them under your strong but balanced rule. You die years later, heralded as a military and social leader of the germanic people.

    You drive them out. Your failure to unite the tribes eventually causes the tribes unite against you and kill you.

    You fail to drive them out. You are crucifed outside your village as a warning for all rebels.

    You work in favor of rome.

    Your village becomes a powerful roman outpost with you as village leader. From there, the romans wage a constant war against the other tribes for years until rome weakens and is forced to withdraw. Your tribe is ultimatly consumed by a united tribal alliance that destroyes your city when rome withdraws. You die in your village's destruction

    Your village becomes a powerful roman outpost and with your ability as a military leader and ability to speak latin, you are leading the outpost as a roman general and village leader. By force you make the other tribes submit to roman rule/taxation for years until rome withdraws and your tribe is able to repulse a united tribal alliance against you. You die in your sleep years later in your village.

    Your village becomes a powerful roman outpost. Through political negotiation, you convince the other tribes to submit to roman authority. With your ability to speak latin, and seeing your ability as a politician, you eventually are given a place of political power in Rome itself. You die years later in your bed in your manor in Rome.

    Your village fails to become a powerful roman outpost because it was never developed to be strong. Years later a united tribal alliance destroyes your village and the roman outpost in it.

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    Erik
    Joined: 27 Jun 2005
    Posts: 6

    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Teudogar 2

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    Vistaer wrote:

    I like this idea, but a massive world (especially if its one open world like Darghul) at 1x scale would be pretty hard, heh. I would like to see a Darhgul-like approach obviously to the majority of the world, however being able to visit more "inner roman" outposts would be awesome as well. Perhaps a massive world could exist like Darghul, then you can travel extensively outwards to certain points like you're saying through a more Teodogar 1 method.

    Yes, the world I'm proposing might be to massive. On the other hand, most of it would be wilderness and if it could be done it would be fantastic. Some parts you would rarely visit and they would be living their own lives... I can't help loving the idea...

    Re-making a 100% historical accurate world would also be impossible. I would therefore like to stress that Teudogar 2 would not be a Scientific Work, but rather an interactive historical novel (am I right?). This would give some freedom in the design and allow for an exciting world (not that history isn't exciting enough in itself, but there are some blanks that could be filled out this way).

    Quote:
    I also like your ideas for main quests... however, doing a whole lifetime is hard. Dunno if that could be reasonably done. Maybe the game should take place in two parts. One as a young man establishing yourself, then as a grown man. Things you do in the previous part (gather slaves/wealth, make enemies/allies) affect how things start in the next chapter. Also this could affect the way Teodogar II is released, in an episode-based format of two parts.

    In my last Teudogar game I have reached day 534 without getting very deep down the main quest, but rather just doing some free-adventuring. I estimate this has taken some 8 hours during about a week.
    Playing 10-15 years will naturally take much longer, but I think its doable. This requires some sort of fast travel (perhaps between known parts of the map, with random encounters) within the travelable world, as this 'speeds up' game time.

    The real challenge is to fill these years with meaningful activity and link it all to the main quest(s). With lots of side quests and the free-adventuring we see in Teudogar and will in the coming Darghul, I think it can be done. Awful lot of work though, perhaps something to do through add-ons.

    The main quest could also be linked to events in the outside world, requiring you to wait for certain things to happen before you can move on. For example, you might have to raise a significant amount of money on your own, wait for spring to meet someone, establish a new settlement somewhere, or travel back and forth to some far-away place to accomplish some quest. All this would eat up 'time' while developing your character.

    Quote:
    I love this idea. Its one of the few things I wish you could have done in Teudogar. Perhaps it could be done imbetween the two parts as I mentioned. In part 1 you need to struggle with translating latin, while in the second part, if you learned it imbetween the two parts, you can simply read it normally (but in a special font so you know its latin you're reading)

    Yes, I had something like this in mind. Makes me think of Antonio Banderas in 'The 13th Warrior'...

    Quote:
    I also love all your other side quest Ideas

    Thanks, merly brainstorming... One idea I have though is that interested, willing people could write side quests and provide Wolf with the text for him to implement (if they are good enough). This would help out the development and perhaps add some variety.

    Quote:
    On swords and weapons (and metal armor)... perhaps there should be 3 of each type. Iron, Bronze, and Steel. Steel being the strongest and mid-point of weight, Iron being second strongest and more durable than bronze, but the heaviest, and bronze being the weakest, but very nimble. So basically this affects the color of your arms and the duarbility/weight/defence (teh damage done shouldnt be effected. How well the condition is should, but if bronze deteriorates fast then you'll end up having that be weaker much sooner than an iron or steel counterpart)

    I'm not sure bronze weapons were used that much by this time and steel is basically a higher quality iron.
    I personally would prefer a quality rating of all objects with 'rough' being the standard, 'normal' what you would expect the Romans to mostly use and 'fine' (or whatever you want to call it) being something made by a master craftsman, very expensive and hard to obtain.

    Quote:
    Good ideas on a character creation system by the way.

    Yes, I hope something like this will be implemented.

    Quote:
    The dynamic game world is SO hard though. As I suggested with having the two parts, your effects from the first part can be seen in the second. A village you sacked may be rebuilt by your older years though not as good as it was before. A village you invested in (your own probably) or sucked the marrow out of will either grow or falter by the second part.

    Yes, this is probably the hardest to make happen. However, if it could be made to work we would have quite the crpg!

    Add-ons will probably be the way to go, expanding the world, adding quests and filling it with people, animals and places.

    Quote:
    I hate the food/family starving system though. If you're a noble, then you automatically have enough land to support your family. Your slaves/peasantry would starve before your family.

    Maybe there was a really bad harvest, some of your slaves ran away or the Roman tax-collector demanded to many cattle skins. Or maybe its just a bad idea...
    I would like food to be somewhat harder to obtain though, or rather being eaten up to a greater extent. During the long winter (if we could have seasons..) it would be hard to produce much of anything and you would be living on your reserves.

    Quote:
    One final thing...

    I think you should have multiple endings begining with two basic endings and then having sub-endings (think of how Fallout ended. There was your completion of the main quest then hearing about the fate of all the cities/groups you met in your travels)

    All good ideas. Probably something that will be in if Teudogar is something to go by.

    By the way, I wonder if Wolf's recent inactivity is a sign of Darghul being on its way... Here's me hoping so!!!



    Last edited by Erik on Fri Mar 17, 2006 11:14 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    TheDuke
    Joined: 17 Mar 2006
    Posts: 2
    Location: Canada
    Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

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    Erik I completely agree with you.


    Hahaha

    Good ideas, I also enjoy dreaming. I'd love to see that game made but I think it's a little big for Wolf, although I'm sure that whatever he pulls together for T2 will be great.

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    Wolf Mittag
    Teudogar Dev
    Joined: 18 Dec 2003
    Posts: 231
    Location: Berlin (Germany)
    Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 11:45 am Post subject:

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    Hello Erik, hello Vistaer,

    thank you for these great suggestions, and for your time, considerations and ideas! I'm sorry for my delayed reply (writing this took me a while).

    Vast Game world:
    Well, there were around 50 Roman Camps along the Rhine, plus the Roman city of Cologe. And in Germania proper there probably were several major Roman administration and trading cities (like recently discovered Waldgirmes), plus many dozens of minor (and some major) Roman army camps in almost every strategic location (tribal borders, rivers, major roads etc). And of course the Teutons themselves, several dozen tribes with hundreds of villages and thousands of single farmsteads.
    It's a pretty large area with an awful lot of settlements, and a population of several million. Even if I were to drastically reduce and simplify everything, there would still remain an awful lot of houses and people. And every single house would have to be furnished, and every single person should have at least something to say (otherwise the whole endeavor would be pointless).
    I don't think I could do this by myself, even if reduce everything to bare minimum essentials. Perhaps I could outsource most game world creation work to India or Eastern Europe; but it'd still be an awful amount of work, and, consequently, probably an awful lot for me to finance, even given Indian wage levels. And Teudogar is by no means a game that is particularly successful from a commercial point of view, i.e., it's pretty unlikely I could ever recoup such an investment via full version sales.
    But apart from whether it'd be feasible at all, I'm not sure it'd really be such a good thing in terms of gameplay. My impression is that life in ancient Germania was pretty uniform. If you know one village, you basically know every village. After the 3rd or 4th it'd get repetitive. Insofar I'm wondering if it mightn't perhaps be both the easiest and the best approach to simply feature no more than just a representative selection of locations:
    That'd of course include standard Germanic villages and farmsteads, plus a major Roman administrative/trading city within Germania, some minor Roman outposts, and, most interestingly, the large Roman city of Cologne (oppidum Ubiorum).

    Main Quest:
    I agree with you on this, and I really like most of your proposals. The scenario you describe is exactly the situation I want the game to be about. It was definitely an exciting time, chaotic and violent, oppressive and bureaucratic, but also absolutely dynamic, with centuries-old traditions being overthrown within months or weeks, with people realizing and grasping new, unheard-of opportunities, and with unprecedented growth and prosperity coming to parts of Germania. Change everywhere; winners and losers; some people losing everything they had, others lifted to positions they could never have dreamt of; and really everyone's life being disrupted, and changed, for better or worse.
    "Teudogar I" was basically the quiet before the storm - a static world, although with everyone aware they were facing change in the near future. "Teudogar II - Roman Rule" would be where you actually experience, live through, and possibly shape this change.

    Maybe the game should take place in two parts:
    I think this is a natural choice. In my opinion, there were 3 distinct phases, i.e. I - Alliance with Rome (start of the invasion, 12 B.C.), II - Roman Rule (somewhere between 8 B.C. and 6 A.D.; this includes some minor failed uprisings by several tribes but would mostly be about Rome's consolidation of power over the conquered area, and the natives' adaptation to the changed way of life), III - Rebellion against Rome (governor Varus' arrival and death, and the final breakdown of Roman rule; this would include the apparent calm in the years immediately before the uprising; 7 A.D. to 9 A.D.).
    I'm not sure joining to entire phase from 8 B.C. (Rule) to 9 A.D. (Rebellion) into a single game would really give a superior gaming experience (apart from feasibility): The background action thematized (change, cultural conflict, Roman administration, taxes, injustices, people's different ways of and success with adapting to the new life, and so on) might be enough to fill a plot of several weeks - but 17 years? I think it'd become repetitive. Of course there'd be your personal circumstances and development to focus on; but there would have to be some sort of fast forward in order to skip actionless periods. So playing episode 2 as a young man, making fundamental choices that would shape your future, and then episonde 3 as a more mature adult (starting from a situation created by your choices/archievements in episode 2) might make sense.
    In part 2 you could be excited about the changes, possibly loyal to Rome, and definitely aware of the numerous improvements in cultural and living standards immediately following the occupation; while in part 3 you might be older, wiser, and disillusioned, aware that the material improvements were paid for far too dearly with all the freedoms you gave up. Part 2 might thematize your enthusiasm (which would be well-founded, given the contrast to how Germania was before the invasion), and part 3 your disillusionment, realizing of the drawbacks, and, finally, opposition to what you once fought for.
    I think this could be done quite well in a game split between part 2 and part 3 following a decade or so later: Part 2 could be full of promises and hope, while part 3 would be about looking back and comparing past hopes with present outcomes - i.e., broken dreams, realization of how unsatisfactory the consequences of your past actions really are, and how your initial pride about having forced change and progress on your people changes into shame about having helped to enslave them, culminating in your decision to undo the damage you had done, and to actively fight your former Roman allies. (Of course this would only be one option; continuous loyality or neutrality and so on would be others, all of course depending on what you did in part 2.)
    Such a trilogy, with each episode dealing with only a few exemplary months, looks like the most effective (and efficient to realize) approach to me. After all, even the most voluminous novels often skip a decade or two, chosing to put their focus on the most exciting periods in their protagonists' lifes instead.
    And I'd like to make sure that the situation at the start of Part 3 would be determined by your actions in Part 2 (possibly via an import-save-game function), i.e. your job and position, status, wife, wealth, loyalities, friends, your village's situation and so on, thus providing continuity of plot and character. I.e., most of the advantages of a 15-year-plot (continuous immersion, and experiencing the outcomes of your actions), without the drawbacks (all boring phases / too much time to kill with nonessential actions).

    Side Quests:
    Thank you for these! I really like almost all of these ideas. And everything you list fits perfectly, both in terms of historical realism/authenticity as well as the game's general plot.
    Joining the Roman military would be a typical option for "Teudogar II - Roman Rule". Another of Arminius' relatives became priest of the Divine Augustus in Cologne, which might also be a plot. I'd also expect numberous Germanic merchants creating ever closer trade links with the Romans. Any of these scenarios should give you the chance to fraternize with and really get to know the Romans, in contrast to "Teudogar I" where they appear sort of like aliens, and remain distant from you and foreign to you during the entire game.

    Weapons and equipment:
    Agree with you on this, too; I like the idea of different quality of weapons. Btw good idea about repairing things only to 'almost new', not to 'new'.
    Spears - agree, too; differentiating between javelins/spears has been on my to-do-list for a while now (a Teutonic spear has very little in common with a Roman pilum).
    Bows: Romans used Cretan auxiliary units with bows in some places, but to my knowledge, not in Germania. They did definitely use slings with leaden projectiles in Germania, though (these were found in Kalkriese in great numbers; but no arrowheads as far as I remember; have to look this up though).

    Character system:
    Right. At present, the RPG aspect suffers from your being unable to chose your background and weigh strengths/weaknesses at the start. A number of different available backgrounds, as well as different sets of skill levels, would give you a different gaming experience for each new game, thus making playing the game several times much more fun. In DARGHUL, I added the choice of playing the game as a woman, which naturally means you start with a completely different set of skills. I might simply add a second layer of choices (i.e. farmer / craftsman / nobleman etc), or perhaps let you manually adjust your talents / strengths&weaknesses.
    Some of these starting choices would probably have to restrict what you could archieve within the plot, but on the other hand, adding a number of limited plots like farmer/simple auxiliary soldier/henchman/merchant etc wouldn't be that much work. Still, in order to play a political plot like Teudogar1's or gain a leadership role, you'd probably have to start as a nobleman.

    Dynamic Game World:
    The more dynamic the game world, the greater its complexity (and that's the main reason DARGHUL still isn't released...), so there are limits to what I can reasonably do there. Of course, there more dynamic, the more immersive, so I want to do as much in this as I possibly can.

    Learn Latin:
    agree; at first, I think communication would have been quite similar to what you had in the Roman camp in Teudogar 1: You can't really talk and don't understand much, but somehow get along anyway, the way a Westerner in China would. Your gradual learning of the language would then finally open the door to real conversations (with available answers/passages determined by your skill levels, as discussed elsewhere).

    Different colours for clothes.
    agree; the new DARGHUL system makes this especially easy to implement since all animated NPC spritesets are now colorized in real-time. So the inventory paperdoll would be the only thing I'd still need to deal with.

    iron/steel:
    Thought about this, too. Germanic iron was low-quality and advanced smithing techniques used by the Romans weren't known to Teutons. Consequently, Germanic products would tend to break or bend much more easily - clear impediment in combat. I could reflect this by implementing different quality types of weapons, as discussed above.
    As to bronze, yes, this was no longer used as far as I know, and besides required trading for expensive raw materials, while iron could be found right there in the ground. But wood might be an additional option: Due to 'budgetary constraints', many Teutons simply used wooden spears, with wooden tips (hardened over fire).

    run away slaves:
    Btw I ought to make slaves run away from you depending on how you treat them in the first place. (As long as you don't mistreat them too harshly, they'd be quite unlikely to risk running away; but if you do, they should.)

    multiple endings
    I like this, and it's true that although Teudogar already had several dozen endings, differentiating these further wouldn't be much work at all and would definitely enhance gaming fun.

    Playing 10-15 years
    Well, in theory it could well be done. 15 years is no more than 5500 days, and you can easily get to a few hundred days even in Teudogar 1. So if there's a fast forward option enabling you to skip boring phases, you could finish such a 15-year plot in anytime from between a few days to several weeks of playing time.
    What'd make this horribly difficult, however, would be the need for the dynamic changes in the game world (natural seasons summer/winter/etc anyway, but also people growing old, things rotting, villages being abandoned and newly founded, political/social/economic changes over that period and much more).
    And...

    The real challenge is to fill these years with meaningful activity
    That's the main point. It's already naturally hard for the player not to get bored over such an extended period of time; it's much harder for the author not to be repetitive and boring.

    food/family starving system. If you're a noble,
    ...you'd be unlikely to starve because of a bad harvest (since you'd have enough gold/silver/weapons etc to buy everything you might ever want), but you'd be quite likely to have your farmstead burnt down by a rival clan or your property confiscated by Roman administrators, or to get arrested by the Romans after a denunciation from one of your enemies. I think political risks of that kind might make some nice subplots (e.g., consequences of your insulting someone, or a rival casting his eyes on your position / wife / property etc).

    BTW, one convenient thing about writing Teudogar II / Roman Rule would be that there'd be such a huge amount of timeless occupation stories, anecdotes and subplots to choose from (like Germany, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on); basically lots of things are really timeless and repeat over and over, whether it's Alexander's or Augustus' or Stalin's or Bush's armies. Teudogar I was much more difficult in regard to sources / anecdotes, since almost everywhere where a cilizatory inferior, illiterate country has been invaded, almost all reports we get are purely from the invaders' point of view. In contrast, occupations have very frequently been endured by people able to report about their experience, so there'd be a wealth of inspirational sources.
    And of course Roman provinicial life is pretty well documentated by itself. Writing a plot playing in this period I'd have lots of historical accounts, literature, primary sources and so on available, much much more than there ever was about the pre-invasion Teutons.

    Now, thank you again for all your ideas and suggestions! I really wish I had a number of identical twins who could already start work on "Teudogar II" right away (while I remain stuck on DARGHUL for the time being, and will probably need an extended vacation after finishing it).

    So in spite of all ideas and plans, I regret to mentions that it'll probably take some time until Teudogar II can be started - let alone finished...
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    Adam P
    Joined: 10 Oct 2004
    Posts: 40
    Location: Silly American
    Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:14 am Post subject:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vistaer, I love how you think it's all the little thoughts i fail to reach.

    Quote:
    I love this idea. Its one of the few things I wish you could have done in Teudogar. Perhaps it could be done imbetween the two parts as I mentioned. In part 1 you need to struggle with translating latin, while in the second part, if you learned it imbetween the two parts, you can simply read it normally (but in a special font so you know its latin you're reading)


    although it looks like it was just something you kinda through in as an afterthought, it's a really great idea, I always think fantasy games and picture a text box of an orc/goblin language written in a childish font with the b's and d's switched and the z's backwards.
    this is just one example of many instances

    Wolf, you seem to love this period of time and place, I dont know if you have matched feelings of other places and times if so perhaps you should consider shifting this setting more than a few years.

    Perhaps assuming the bent reality of overthrowing the roman attack, you could counter this attack in Rome shifting to Roman pillaging. Or assuming the absorption into Rome the defending of Rome from "barbarians".

    Perhaps an even more radical change from Teudogar, although unless titled "Teudogar 2: not so Teutonic" wouldn't really be Teudogar 2, based in a more ancient Greece or even near pre-historic chaldeans (amazing period in my perspective anyway)
    anyway i'm going to shut up before i write another novel.
    _________________
    Yar.

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    Wolf Mittag
    Teudogar Dev
    Joined: 18 Dec 2003
    Posts: 231
    Location: Berlin (Germany)
    Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject:

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    > love this period of time and place

    Not that much; part of it was just convenience and technical considerations (e.g., easy-to-implement villages instead of large cities). Of course there are aspects I really like about the Teutons, especially the enormous degree of individual freedom their society guaranteed to most men, and the code of personal ethics prevalent in that society. And it's probably true that I'm in love with Rome, with their mentality, ethics, philosophy, art and architecture, general culture, and even their vices (may be more emotional attraction than conscious choice) (related to this, I also love Latin women, Italian operas, and Mediterrean cooking).

    But there are lots of different historical epochs that I find fascinating: Especially Greece, both the classical as well as the Hellenistic period. I love Greek rationality (e.g. Eratosthenes correctly computing the diameter of the Earth in 240 B.C.), philosophy (especially Aristoteles and Epicuros), and art (especially Hellenistic sculptures). Populist-democratic Athens' failed conquest of Sicily, or Xenophon's 10,000 mercenaries marching on Babylon, or Alexander's conquest of the world, or the diadoch kings' fight for his inheritance might be great backgrounds for historical games. So might ancient Babylon or Niniveh be. Or late antiquity with the barbarian invasions and the fall of Rome. Perhaps the Norman conquest of England. I also like the Renaissance epoch in Italy, Florence etc, and the Enlightenment, 18th century France.

    I think I need to see a certain degree of culture and beauty, a widespread practice of people using their mental faculties (there were too many epochs of general dumbness, in my opinion), individual freedom (at least in thinking), people being restless/active/driven, changing circumstances and new possibilities, and a bit of exuberance and vice in order to really like a historical epoch. Given this, and especially given the necessary amount of time for game development, I might probably use any of the aforementioned epochs as a setting for a nice new computer game...
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  3. Adam P Augur

    Adam P
    Joined:
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    Silly American
    Wow, i really hope that wasn't me :oops:
     
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  4. hans_af_claes Novice

    hans_af_claes
    Joined:
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    Location:
    sweden
    First of all I have to quickly comment the disscusion of Teudogar 2. I liked some ideas better than others like for example; Traveling into roman territory visiting towns etc, maybe witnessing great battles between romans and germanic tribes (this wasn't a idea but I write it anyway since I think it would be cool). Being able to increase your wealth not only by bartering but maybe capturing slaves which gradually gives you more money in the form of fabrics, clothing, weapons (in case you get a blacksmith)and meat. But there were also some ideas that I found a bit weird. Like playing the game for 15 years lol(yes, I mean in gameterms). And about that guy who had played the game for 578 days or something.. to me that is not the meaning of rpg. Also the insane amounts of writeing story, art etc would make it very hard to complete as a one-man project.

    On the subject of economy I say that I also have another personal idea. That is giving your own slaves and caretakers (or you) controll of you economy, for example if you want to sell all your cattles (or whatever) then you should be able to do so, of course after a while your slaves would starve to death (unless you sell them too) and your farmstead would probably turn into a ghosthouse. Ehhm.. On second thaughts while reading this maybe you shouldn't do such a UnRPGish desicion as selling your cattle, possibly if you have betrayed your tribe and you know they are goin to find out you migrate with the money.

    But still if you want allocate goods into money or money-generating things you should be able to do so. Maybe as an example you could tell your slaves to always buy skins and cattle and give them a lump sum of 20gold while you are away to do this with. When you then get back maybe tell them to trade the goods to the roman encampment at xxx, if all then turned out well you should be able to get maybe 30gold (giving you like 10 gold in just a few weeks). This would also decrease the large amount of bartering you had to do in teudogar1 just to gain enough money for decent equipment.

    The setting of the game could be almost anything. For example why not make a game from a roman point of view instead of germanic. You could start out in Rome, or maybe a roman province somewhere. Then you could chose like two or three diffrent paths as the story progresses. Also there should be some guide, like your pal or something that tells you how the gamesystem works etc. Anyway the story could be about your goal to become a senator representing your province with possible spinnoffs (good if you don't want to fight so much but istead focus on dialouge). However you could also join the army and try to advance to a general, learing tactics and war instead, and in the end become a commander of a major battle in which outcome effects history. This is one of the good things about Teudogar the story can be about almost anything! Since it is all written down all we have to do is look at history for inspiration. However since the last game was about germanic the next logical step would be to make one about romans.

    These were some of my ideas hope it was to any use! :D
     
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  5. Wolf Mittag Liturgist

    Wolf Mittag
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Parrots:
    331
    Location:
    Shanghai
    Hello hans_af_claes,

    > Traveling into roman territory visiting towns etc
    Yes, that would definitively be a part of Teudogar II, which should be about the Roman Rule and give you a chance to finally get to actually know the Romans first-hand. So I thought I'd let you travel to and explore the Roman city of Cologne.

    > great battles between romans and germanic tribes
    Would be great but also awfully difficult to program, at least if done with the same level of details as everything else. Don't quite know how I could realize this.

    > money-generating game elements; capturing slaves ; selling/buying means of production ; deciding/ordering what will be produced ; automatically caravan-ing trade goods to specified locations for selling.
    I agree with all of that. Actually, I've already implemented some similar production/trading functions in my new fantasy RPG 'DARGHUL'.
    With Teudogar, everything would be a bit more difficult due to its realism and historical authenticity. E.g., most income-producing kinds of production took quite long (e.g. raising cattle, growing wheat, treating skins), which would limit you to just a few production actions of this kind over the few months' course of the plot (though you could of course simply ignore the plot and play the game for several years - a bit more like an economic simulation than a RPG).
    Anyway at least production of and trade with finished goods (skins, cloth etc) would be absolutely unproblematic, as would be buying/selling/trading in general.

    > setting of the game - roman point of view
    Theoretically a very nice idea. Difficult to implement though. In Roman territory, everything is crowded: Large cities, large army camps, always thousands or at least hundreds of people around you. Large and complex cities with countless buildings. Such a world is much harder to re-create than the Teutonic villages which consisted of just a few dozen huts inhabited by a few dozen people. However, I agree a Roman plot would offer lots of great alternative plotlines you could play.

    I don't know if I had the nerve to write such a thing, though: After Teudogar, I don't feel like living yet again through this same epoch. Sure I may do part II and III, but these would build on part I without too huge changes of the kind a Roman-based RPG would require; and the plot and historical events basically demand a trilogy anyway (Roman conquest, Roman rule, uprising against Rome).

    As to my own appetite for writing, apart from the fantasy rpg I'm currently working on, and perhaps an immediate continuation of Teudogar (part II - Roman Rule), I'd perhaps like to skip a few centuries and set a game in the late antiquity period of the barbarian invasions into the Roman empire (as laFey had suggested in a different thread). This would be a fun topic to write about due to its darkness, destructiveness, and decadence: Romans destroying themselves via authoritarian socialism and religious craze, Barbarians destroying cities and priceless works of culture and art, just in order to win some trinkets to pimp up their mud huts, and the frequent reversals of fate encountered by most historic actors would make really open-ended plots viable and realistic.

    Well, but first of all I need to finally complete DARGHUL, so these games will have to wait for the time being. Thank you for your comments, ideas and suggestions!
     
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  6. Vistaer Novice

    Vistaer
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Parrots:
    27
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
     
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  7. I'm With Her Gold for prison Augur Patron

    Gold
    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Parrots:
    504
    Dead State Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
    Until I see all the new features on Darghul it would be kinda hard to suggest what should be added for the next Teudogar. I especially enjoyed the setting, the amount of work put in shows through wonderfully. Too bad history causes many people to break out in hives. A better economy would be great, but it sounds like Darghul already has that included.
     
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  8. Wolf Mittag Liturgist

    Wolf Mittag
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2003
    Parrots:
    331
    Location:
    Shanghai
    Hi Vistaer and Gold,
    thank you for this!

    I like the idea of doing battles in a strategy-game-like way. Your starting position (number of troops, location, enemies etc) could be determined by the rpg part's variables; you could then move your troops and decide where when and how to attack or defend yourself (with additional tactical choices via menu). This strategic interlude would end when you are victorious or defeated or have fled etc, which would of course determine the situation you face when you return to the rpg part. (The only drawback would be that it wouldn't be much fun if I left it too primitive, and would be almost a new game to write if I fleshed it out really nice...)

    As to trade and production, as discussed, this needs some work. Though in general I think Teudogar ought to retain a strong cultural bias in favor of war/booty over production. E.g. from a Teutonic - or Roman - point of view it makes much more sense, and would be much more honorable, to conquer your neighboring tribe's land and capture their men as slaves - ready to till the soil for you -, instead of investing much of your own work into your own fields. (Maybe this would be yet another use for a strategy-game-like in-game war/battle system...)

    But of course first of all I need to complete DARGHUL...
     
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