Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

KickStarter TEKKEN 7

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
I read the single player is very small and it is mostly just for playing online. Makes me wonder how it is with lag and stuff.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,816
Location
Italy
yeah, there's not even basic stuff like the scolling beat-em-up or the volleyball which could fit in a single cd but somehow can't in 70 gb.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
3,921
Location
Nedderlent
If you're looking for incline in your fighting games you're looking for :bounce:ASW :bounce:games.

Compare the content and production value of :bounce:Xrd Rev.2:bounce: to any other fighter out there right now, it's not even remotely close.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,869
Problem is playerbase, at least for Steam. There are only around 43k owners for Revelator, and probably significantly fewer owners for Rev 2 (I couldn't find the number of owners for Rev 2 on steamspy).

A game like Tekken 7 has 150k+ owners and it still takes me awhile to find matches. I really like Guilty Gear (have played since the very first one on the original Playstation and remember having my mind blown by GGX on Dreamcast), but I'm having a hard time justifying the purchase given that my real life friends aren't into fighting games anymore.
 

HeatEXTEND

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
3,921
Location
Nedderlent
If you're from europe, there's always rooms up between 19:00 ~ 00:00, wider spread on sat/sun.
Ranked is dead but who cares, :incline:.
 

Biscotti

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Nov 24, 2015
Messages
561
Location
Belgium
If you're looking for incline in your fighting games you're looking for :bounce:ASW :bounce:games.

Compare the content and production value of :bounce:Xrd Rev.2:bounce: to any other fighter out there right now, it's not even remotely close.

Seconded, although I like both. If you're supporting anything but capcom fighters you're okay in my book.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
Joined
Oct 12, 2016
Messages
7,530
Location
Kelethin
Everyone beats me online, wtf.
maxresdefault.jpg
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,869
Everyone beats me online, wtf.
backdash and punish. learn the strings. learn which characters have quick low moves that launch, and be ready to block low, otherwise always block standing. The mid/low mixup in Tekken is obnoxious online, there's a lot less time to block lows on reactions so you have to be ready for it beforehand.

Otherwise just keep at it if you think the game is worth it, you'll start winning. I don't think it's worth it, game's terrible.
 

dibens

as seen on shoutbox
Patron
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
2,629
Some twatter questions for Tekken7 pros. Btw, if yer into fighting games, def check that channel out, high quality vids.

 

sullynathan

Arcane
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
6,473
Location
Not Europe
Just beat the story mode. Man, Kazuya was such a bitch to fight even though it was epic. 4 phases and the final one was bullshit. RIP Heihachi
 

Ivan

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2013
Messages
7,471
Location
California
so whats the story? I only played Tekken 5. Something about Jin and his brother Kazuya seeking to end their dad Heihachi.
 

PlanHex

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
2,053
Location
Copenhagen, Denmark
I've bought it just to have a BRO party game. We should make an online Tekkenescape: Tournament. C'mon faggits.
I'd be down, but for some reason tournaments constantly fuck up for me. Get weird disconnects and such. Pretty annoying.

so whats the story? I only played Tekken 5. Something about Jin and his brother Kazuya seeking to end their dad Heihachi.

 

Teepo

Scholar
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
892
Everyone beats me online, wtf.

Dash attacks bro. Dash punches and kicks they are op, use em and abuse them on their wake up.

What's the best way to improve? Can you recommend good tutorials? I've been watching puddle guy stuff and planning to watch his ttt2 dragunov video (3.5 hour long!!!! with no footnotes), but maybe there aer other good sources.

Aris



Sergei is his main and mine too sorta if you have any questions.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,869
I honestly cannot grasp how people like Tekken. Even at the highest level, it's infinite backdash canceling into whiffed moves that are mostly safe, but when they connect lead to 60%+ damage combos.

There is no notion of risk/reward in this game. It's complete garbage.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,816
Location
Italy
it's like an actual fight would work?

i gave a quick glance at the video: they may be the world best knower of those characters' combos and juggles but look nowhere near "best world players" to me. they do know those combos, those juggles, but do nothing else.

yes, it's definitely like an actual fight would work, but between people with some sort of training, very far from being skilled fighters.
 
Last edited:

Teepo

Scholar
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
892
The sidestep has been nerfed so you are correct Deciever. It's still very useful and some characters have attacks you do during sidestep like Brian, Sergei, King. I haven't watched a lot of pro tekken but I have noticed that they do almost exclusively poke and move around. I think the game is still very fun. Not sure about higher skill levels. I've been trying to learn King and its pretty easy to do some of the chain grabs by changing the key bindings and button buffering. Sergei is fun too, Really like the boxing judo sambo style he has. There's problems with 7 for sure like the character roster (no Lei etc), customization options (or lack thereof), input lag but I prefer this series over Soul Calibur. I've played it since 3 and the move lists are identical. You could say they haven't innovated Tekken enough and I agree. Super and super armor feels weird in a Tekken game but I've definitely won games with super. Definitely a nooberific mechanic. I used to play Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike so landing a super is a piece of cake for me, though a smart opponent won't let you super them (poking with only safe moves.)

Tekken 7 is the fighting game I enjoy playing the most at the moment. Haven't tried guilty gear. Right now I play King, Sergei Dragunov pretty well, Hwoarang, Steve Fox, Jin, Paul, mediocre-ly. I'm at the point where I am pretty comfortable with the game. I read that if you master fundamentals in Tekken you can play any character. My fundamentals are decent, the only thing I really suck at is movement. I'm still a scrub, I'll still get wrecked by lower tier characters but I understand the game now.

What you're saying is very true Deciever, when you watch good players play Tekken 7 there's a lot of moving around and poking. And jugglez. The games definitely not perfect. Was there input lag in older Tekkens? Either way as far as 3d fighters go I'd say its okay.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,869
No, there was no input lag in older Tekkens.

When I say there's no risk/reward in this game, I mean simply that moves that lead to big damage should not be safe (and just so we're extra clear, when I say 'safe' I mean 'not punishable'). Generic df+2s should not launch on normal hit and if they do, they should not be safe. It makes no sense for a move to result in a 50-60% combo with the possibility of wall carry and extra damage and be completely safe at the same time. Not even jab punishable.

The concept is completely fucking retarded. In Virtua Fighter, for example, moves that launch on normal hit are rare and they're generally punishable by the same class of move if you block them. I.e. if you block a knee, you get a knee class launcher as a punish. Up until Virtua Fighter 3, throws were instant, and in all games in the VF4 line (from vanilla VF4 to Final Tuned), throws were the fastest moves in the game. That meant that the fastest moves in the game that were punishable on block were at the very least throw-punishable, and there was nothing your opponent could do if you blocked but escape the proper command for your throw. Throws did significant damage in that game, often put you in an advantageous position after they landed, and the escape window was infinitesimal compared to Tekken's. Conversely, barring very few exceptions, throws in Tekken are worthless; they do little damage and will get broken 90% of the time by decent opponents without a second thought anyway. This is made even worse by the fact that ducking is practically instant and throws have large execution windows. They're meant to disincentivize turtling, but they obviously don't serve that purpose here and they're been even further nerfed in this iteration since you can break normal (neutral) 1+3 and 2+4 throws with one input. There's no clear rule - you can be thrown out of certain moves and you can sidestep throws in certain situations. In VF, throws almost never beat moves (there's a distinct class of throws in that game called 'catch throws', they're situational, very slow, and intended to beat certain things) and will always land on sidestepping opponents. It makes sense.

Anyway, I digress. There's an illusion of depth that Tekken players fool themselves with, that there is great movement in the game - but in reality, all it amounts to is endless backdash cancelling. This is ameliorated somewhat by the existence of walled stages, but it's still too strong. Backdashing should be vulnerable, and not cancellable. The fact that sidestepping has an execution of 6 frames doesn't help matters, either.

It's just not a well thought-out system. Tekken is a Frankenstein of old ideas cobbled together that don't make much sense when you think them through. This is reflected by some of the 20-year-old animations in the game that have been strung along and jerry rigged into every new iteration. That's all this game is: jerry rigging and smoke and mirrors.

It's shit. QED.
 
Last edited:

Teepo

Scholar
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
892
barring very few exceptions, throws in Tekken are worthless;

That explains why when I watch high level Dragunov, I never see any throws. They play him as a striker juggler. What are the exceptions? On King a lot of his command throws are very easy to do quick with practice, with button buffering so I don't agree about the execution window (except maybe his giant swings that require half circle motions.) Although apparently his chain grabs are worthless because teching is easier as you said. I don't play at high level, my internet is shit so I just play with my friend who comes once a week and treasure mode.

Question: are you playing at a rank where all you see is back dashes, pokes and safe launchers? I guess I'm lucky that I can't play ranked and only play low level Tekken IRL.

I wish there was good VF for PC. I remember watching a fundamentals video on the more recent one and it really does seem like a fun game. I tried playing VF4 on emulator a bit after seeing videos of VF5 or whatever the fuck (used to play the old ones back in the day) but I found it very hard. VF5 Final Showdown is the latest one? That would be fun as fuck.

Also 'Korean' backdashing is not that good (backdash canceling.) People do it a lot but it's over rated. That's what some Korean pro said in that video. Honestly don't know how good it is since I never see it. I can't imagine that it is as good as people think or even needed to be good at this game. I agree about the risk reward point. No one should have a safe launcher. Thanks for explaining. -8 Input delay is also decline, going the path of SF5 ffs. King's launcher is down 1+2 (I think) but yeah it's funny how once you get how one character's attack commands work you can really jump into any character since you know all the generic attacks, just not their ranges or effects. Of course every character is slightly different and got different throws, combos, counter hits but they all got a few dash punches\kicks, maybe a few hopkicks maybe none, neutral punches\kicks, forward punches\kicks, back punches\kicks, down punches\kicks, rising punches\kicks, downforward punches\kicks etc. They also have different speeds for example a kicky character like hwoarang can attack constantly.

You can't enjoy Tekken? When does it stop being fun for you (aside from the silly costumes which ruin the game)? What fighting game would you rather play? I'm glad you were trashing Injustice 2, I don't see enough hate for that game. I guess I'm a pleeb. King and Sergei are really fun brawler-grapplers. I guess ignorance is bliss. :kingcomrade:

I like Kings back 1+2, 1+2. It positions them with their back to you and then I use back, forward 1+2 for a slam that takes maybe a third of their life. And if they tech it (the first part, AI never techs the second part) I get perfect spacing for a forward+4 kick.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,869
King is a fun character and he's an exception in the game because of one throw: Giant Swing. It is the fastest throw in the game at 10 frames (normal throws are 12 frames), so you can do a lot with it buffered. Giant Swing also has a 1+2 animation so breaking it on reaction is harder than usual (good players see the arm animation to break throws).

Anyway, the last Virtua Fighter released for PC was VF2 over 20 years ago unfortunately. With the recent rise in SEGA ports and stuff, we might see Final Showdown ported (that is indeed the last version of VF), I wouldn't hold my breath, though. In any case, even though VF5:FS is a good game and a vast improvement over vanilla VF5 (which was garbage), I think it's a lot worse than VF4: Final Tuned, which only came out for arcades unfortunately. I guess you could play on emulators but I haven't tried any emulated VF. If I could, I would play arcade VF3:tb and VF4:FT forever.

I used to play Tekken somewhat competitively before the arcade scene died down. This was from Tekken 3 (around 1998) to Tekken 5/DR (around 2005/2006). I used to own an arcade and played all the time.

My online rank is only Warrior, and I haven't played in three weeks. Online play in fighting games is something I'll never come to full terms with, but I understand it's here to stay and there's nothing to be done about it. This means games being developed with innate frame delay (as Tekken 7 was) to compensate. It's a rough approximation of what the actual game should be like, in my opinion. For example, blocking lows on reaction online is 10x harder than in a live situation, and that makes Tekken's 50/50 game (mid/low) much more obnoxious than it actually is. I can't stand it.

re: backdash canceling, I agree that Korean backdashing, such as it's called, is overrated - especially if you consider most people thinking it means spazzing out 5 backdashes in a row. But backdash cancelling once or twice many times per round comprises 95% of the movement of competent players.

Regarding movelists and so on, to be competent what you need to focus on are 'classes' of moves, and this mainly pertains to punishers. What is your character's best punishes for each situation when the opponent is at a big enough frame disadvantage. 9f, 12f, 14f and 15f are the most important to know. After that you need to know your character's safe launcher, his staple combo, wall carry combo and wall splat combo.

It might seem like a lot but it's the same theory for every character. Some don't have safe launchers (like King) and are at an innate disadvantage compared to others. His hopkick is a natural low crush move (meaning it will beat lows in most circumstances) and his WS+1+2 is only -9 or -10 on block - jab counterable; but it's also a WS move and slow at almost 20 frames so it doesn't count. That's not to say King is a bad character, just that you have to put a little more work into winning against decent opponents than just spamming completely safe 12f df+2s.

I can't enjoy Tekken because I know what I want in a fighting game, and it's mostly a decent risk/reward ratio. Outside of a competitive environment, it makes no sense for me to play it, because I think it's a shit game conceptually. Every once in awhile something comes up that makes sense, like crush moves and armor moves, but they're very underdeveloped and underutilized, and the system itself is too inconsistent for them to work.

I put up with Tekken at the arcades because arcade competition was great - money was on the line and you played whatever had players on the machine. I've played a lot of shit in my time - Fatal Fury Wild Ambition tier shit.

Nothing against other people who like the game, though...
 

Teepo

Scholar
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
892
Sounds like you're a bit older than me. If I recall correctly I was 8 when Tekken 3 came out. I remember seeing Eddy Gordo and being like wow Capoiera in a fighting game... That's sick! I was actually pretty shit at Tekken until Tekken 7. Playing 6 on emulator made me a bit better, but it's really come together now. I'm no longer frustrated\ afraid of Eddy Gordo, Fox, Xiaoyu, Hwoarang, rushdown characters etc.

It's a rough approximation of what the actual game should be like, in my opinion. For example, blocking lows on reaction online is 10x harder than in a live situation, and that makes Tekken's 50/50 game (mid/low) much more obnoxious than it actually is. I can't stand it.

Mhm. My friend likes to play Lucky Chloe who is low tier but I would imagine online it's not fun. My response whenever I can't defend is to rush them down. That definitely articulates what's not right about the game. I remember playing Tekken 5 on ps2 emulator online with Multidirectional maybe and it's a different experience. He was owning my ass with Feng and his parries. Input lag makes the game feel way different too. Now Multidirectional can't even get past Heihachi in story mode huehue.

My online rank

I was just wondering when you start to exclusively see safe launchers and poking online.

Nothing against other people who like the game, though...

Don't worry about it dude. I'm not like a rapid Fallout 4 fan who will cry when you start pointing out design mistakes in the game. I was wondering for a long time why pro Tekken was played so differently. Haven't seen anybody talk about it. I'm lucky because I'm in a bubble and my friend and I are playing (IRL) on the fumes of nostalgia. Generally I have to teach him about the game to get him back up to my skill level so I think it's going to be awhile before we get to the point where we are looking for 'safe' moves and maximum juggle. I.e. we are casuals.

Pointing out the flaws does not diminish the game for me, nor should it because different strokes for different folks.

Outside of a competitive environment, it makes no sense for me to play it, because I think it's a shit game conceptually

I know what you mean. When the fundamental shit of the game is retarded, it's hard to enjoy a game. I originally had a more articulate point about bad game design in a game but I forgot it. I think it was something like it sucks when Tekken developers can't even create a basically balanced design that's not cancer, instead going the way of Injustice developers and adding random shit from other fighting games. The fundamentals of this game is totally fucked, with safe launchers. Either way it's sad and unoriginal. Safe launchers lmao. Not to mention all the other little flaws to top it all off (silly costumes that you can't turn off, costumes that clip through each other, no Lei Wulong, half baked armor moves, supers, lack of staple game modes.) In the long run it'll hurt the game, with the core gameplay being as flawed as it is.

I think I'm gonna try the new guilty gear just so I don't get burnt out on Tekken. I actually noticed since I've gotten decent at Tekken that my fundamental skill in other fighting games has improved.

As far as Virtua Fighter all I know is there are PS2 emulators with internet play capabilities. So if you have a buddy you know who's into fighting games like you, you can play Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Capcom vs. Snk 2, VF4 etc. I don't know if there are such things for dreamcast emulators or arcade emulators. Sucks that it's impossible to play a decent VF on PC with other people. I remember watching Alex Valle do a fundamentals video for VF5 final showdown and the game looked fun just because of the fundamentals.

I wouldn't hold my breath, though

Yeh I doubt it will get released on PC.

Some don't have safe launchers (like King) and are at an innate disadvantage compared to others. His hopkick is a natural low crush move

I didn't know it was unsafe but it does have a ducking animation on it so at least it can be used to counter a high. I thought hop kicks in general countered low moves, even without crush?

His up forward 4 has a tiny juggle too.

re: backdash canceling, I agree that Korean backdashing, such as it's called, is overrated - especially if you consider most people thinking it means spazzing out 5 backdashes in a row. But backdash cancelling once or twice many times per round comprises 95% of the movement of competent players.

I agree when all you need is one opening to reverse and win the fight, one well timed back dash cancel sounds pretty good.

Regarding movelists and so on, to be competent what you need to focus on are 'classes' of moves, and this mainly pertains to punishers. What is your character's best punishes for each situation when the opponent is at a big enough frame disadvantage. 9f, 12f, 14f and 15f are the most important to know. After that you need to know your character's safe launcher, his staple combo, wall carry combo and wall splat combo.

I'll keep that in mind when I'll try to improve my game.

Came across this list for noobers, includes frame data

https://drunkardshade.com/2017/05/27/tekken-7-top-15-moves-for-all-characters/

That's not to say King is a bad character, just that you have to put a little more work into winning against decent opponents than just spamming completely safe 12f df+2s.

Yeah I don't find him to be weak at all.

My most used move on him is the dash kick (forward forward 4.) It does a little grab on counter hit. Supposedly his dash left punch is really good. I also use his back left a lot since it causes crumple on counter hit. Downforward 2, 1. It is fast, is mid, and causes knockdown with the second hit. Obviously his forward right kick is really good.

I didn't know about his rising 1+2. Seems cool. He's got so much cool shit. I like all his moves that have counter hit properties. Although rising 1+2 is in the movelist, apparently there's some moves not included in the movelist (supposedly some of Yoshimitzu's stuff, the universal backflip, universal wall attack.) Which is ridiculious.

Sergei Dragunov used to be my main but I've just found King to be more fun. Dragunov is still fun though. His dash right punch and triple dash right punch are godlike. It seems like a lot of Tekken characters have a parry now too. Speaking of which I've never played the Judo chick, I think I will check her out since I'm kind of sick of playing Fox or Hwoarang. You've been playing as an adult for almost 20 years huh? That's crazy. You must know some characters like the back of your hand by now. Sounds like a shame that they messed up the core gameplay so bad that a longtime Tekken fan like you can't play it.

Here's a question. Won't throws always have a place in Tekken 7 as the natural mix up to a blocking opponent? They can't tech the throw if they are blocking right? Chain grabs worthless, but single grabs should still have a place theoretically.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom