Decline Sword Coast Legends - RIP n-Space!

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Oh look here's Telengard popping in again to tell us all about how ToEE sold like shit. Another 20 pages must have passed.

 

[Telengard]

More like people asked again why WotC doesn't make yet another d&d game where they lose money.

Now, if the sales trajectory of Gold Box games wasn't downwards, or if we could pretend TOEE had been even playing in the same league as Baldur's Gate, we wouldn't be in this place we are in.

EDIT: Or if people would admit the rpg audience can't accept all-the-frills investment and purchase games made from a lower investment package deal, there'd be real d&d games again.

 

[ArchAngel]

If only I liked spell trees, cooldowns, level scaling and MMOs.

If only
MadHatters mod (SCLN) can take care of the level scaling. Prodigy's mod takes care of the spell trees, bringing spells/abilities more in line with 5th ed. Cooldowns you'd have to live with I think.

And who takes care of shitty combat, single player campaign, only 4 party members, terrible itemization, lack of skills, lack of feats and so on and on and on.
Lack of proper D&D spells and monster stats and on and on and on.

Yeah, the mods changes combat, skills (not sure about feats?), spells, monster stats, itemization etc. Prodigy is working continuously with his mod to make SCL more in line with 5th ed., and he is also removing level scaling now. What, does it have to be 6 party members to be D&D...? Never heard that one before, and what about NWN? "Single player campaign" - What about it? Modding corner: https://forums.swordcoast.com/index.php?/forum/63-modding-corner/

OK, I can check it again once those mods are done and polished. But the game has Steamguard, will that not block use of extensive mods?

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

EDIT: Or if people would admit the rpg audience can't accept all-the-frills investment and purchase games made from a lower investment package deal, there'd be real d&d games again.

This is actually what I'm hoping for, now all the Atari legal shenanigans are over and WOTC have moved on from 4E. Small, cheaper licenses for niche-type games like KOTC or Chaos Chronicles. I take your point on them being unlikely to invest millions in a new TOEE, and if SCL tanks they may even think that there's no market for casualised DnD games with "arcade-like action". Fine, make it easier for small projects to get cheap licenses if WOTC give up on making big money from computer games.

I realise this is perhaps a futile hope, but I'd have kickstarted something like Chaos Chronicles without a second thought.

 

[Desur]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

 

[Jimmious]

While I agree that the bad sales of ToEE don't help, recently there was a resurrection of the turn-based RPG scene and games like WL2 and D:OS should(or could) prove to publishers that the genre can sell, if you do it right/market it well/have a known franchise supporting it.

Actually Larian would easily make an excellent DnD game in my opinion, provided they leave the writing to someone that knows the lore.

Anyway I believe now is the perfect time for someone to try this. Hell, if Sword Coast Legends sold 100k copies, a GOOD turn based DnD game could easily hit at least three times that.

 

[prodigydancer]

I feel lucky that I can enjoy the only D&D crpg that has been released since NWN2 9 years ago.

/sigh

Trust me, some of us would love to be right there with you on the glass-is-half-full side but then we look at the glass and see that it's as dry as the desert on a sunny afternoon... In the end it's not even about how much SCL systems resemble D&D. It's about the overall experience being a total letdown even though we had low expectations to begin with. SCL is just a tired and poorly designed game with no silver lining to it. Look, I'm probably one of the biggest RTwP fans around here - I completed NWN OC and nearly completed NWN2 OC. If n-Space actually pulled at least something creative and fresh I would side with sstacks and defend this game to the bitter end. But there's no defending this boring derivative lifeless stupid ass shit. Let's make a quick list of its major failings:
- Set in the Sword Coast (aka the most worn-out region of D&D's most worn-out setting).
- Replaces D&D systems with MMORPG and ARPG systems like skill trees and cooldowns.
- Brings absolutely nothing new to the genre.
- Has a beaten to death generic fantasy plot about "save the world from ancient evil #238523473" and doesn't even try to obscure that somehow.
- Ultra-cliché characters none of whom has any hint of personality beyond being a blend of moldy tropes.
- Cheap, boring and predictable writing.
- Extremely poor voice acting.
- Visuals from ten years ago.
- DM tools are so limited you can't even compare them to NWN toolset.

9 years, yes. WotC had 9 fucking years to make a deal with a competent studio (e.g. Obsidian), work out the details and commission an actual D&D game that would have a decent chance to at least surpass NWN2 (which is a very reasonable target considering how bad NWN2 OC was). Instead we get SCL - a B-grade ARPG hastily developed by a bunch of talentless nobodies. If that's not a spit in the face of the whole D&D community then I don't know what is.

 

[Volrath]

More like people asked again why WotC doesn't make yet another d&d game where they lose money.

Now, if the sales trajectory of Gold Box games wasn't downwards, or if we could pretend TOEE had been even playing in the same league as Baldur's Gate, we wouldn't be in this place we are in.

EDIT: Or if people would admit the rpg audience can't accept all-the-frills investment and purchase games made from a lower investment package deal, there'd be real d&d games again.

D:OS sold a million copies dumbfuck.

There's absolutely no reason why a competent pc exclusive turn based 5E D&D cRPG can't do the same. Notice I emphasize the word com|pe¦tent.

 

[toroks]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

What you need to understand is that D&D is a small niche market. People and gamers generally don't give a shit about D&D, and we have barely gotten anything in the last 10 years. Think that you're part a small obscure community of die hard Call of Cthulu fans. What would they do if a semi-big company would be willing to make a game on their brand? They would creep out of their holes and get the game and hope that their support would contribute to increase the general public interest in their stuff and hopefully more would come their way. They wouldn't sit down and "no, this in the rulebook isn't represented well enough here in the game, I'll wait for the next time someone will invest in out brand, maybe in 10 or 20 years - if I'm still alive then..."

 

[ArchAngel]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

What you need to understand is that D&D is a small niche market. People and gamers generally don't give a shit about D&D, and we have barely gotten anything in the last 10 years. Think that you're part a small obscure community of die hard Call of Cthulu fans. What would they do if a semi-big company would be willing to make a game on their brand? They would creep out of their holes and get the game and hope that their support would contribute to increase the general public interest in their stuff and hopefully more would come their way. They wouldn't sit down and "no, this in the rulebook isn't represented well enough here in the game, I'll wait for the next time someone will invest in out brand, maybe in 10 or 20 years - if I'm still alive then..."

Except it is not that small. D&D has millions of players all over the world (if you add pathfinder players to the D&D players). Also ex D&D players like me (switched to Numenera) that would gladly play any good D&D cRPG.
Give the game to a respected studio that also has their own fans (like Obsidian or Larian), tell them to make it feel like playing D&D as much as possible in a different medium and everything will be well.

Unless WotC are idiots that expect DAI kind of sales.

 

[prodigydancer]

D&D is a small niche market.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I'd try it out this weekend, but I won't have the time. I don't really care for DnD fidelity, because I think the DnD ruleset is atrocious isn't my cup of tea and if asked if I had to pick between cool-downs and Vancian casting, I'd opt for the first most of the time. Having tried to watch a few LPs of the campaign, I never made it past the first videos because it just wasn't interesting. And the DM tools are really lackluster. IIRC, you can't even create your own items because you use the same characters in random online matches. Though I don't really get the point off that since you, from what I read, can easily give your characters the best gear available in one room, chest filled dungeons.

 

[ArchAngel]

I'd try it out this weekend, but I won't have the time. I don't really care for DnD fidelity, because I think the DnD ruleset is atrocious isn't my cup of tea and if asked if I had to pick between cool-downs and Vancian casting, I'd opt for the first most of the time. Having tried to watch a few LPs of the campaign, I never made it past the first videos because it just wasn't interesting. And the DM tools are really lackluster. IIRC, you can't even create your own items because you use the same characters in random online matches. Though I don't really get the point off that since you, from what I read, can easily give your characters the best gear available in one room, chest filled dungeons.

And I read people got banned for doing that LOL.

 

[vonAchdorf]

And I read people got banned for doing that LOL.

That's kind of stupid. I think you can only have two valid approaches to that problem:

1) Strict, server side enforcement like in D3
2) Leave it completely up to the players how they handle the issue like in Torchlight

 

[toroks]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

What you need to understand is that D&D is a small niche market. People and gamers generally don't give a shit about D&D, and we have barely gotten anything in the last 10 years. Think that you're part a small obscure community of die hard Call of Cthulu fans. What would they do if a semi-big company would be willing to make a game on their brand? They would creep out of their holes and get the game and hope that their support would contribute to increase the general public interest in their stuff and hopefully more would come their way. They wouldn't sit down and "no, this in the rulebook isn't represented well enough here in the game, I'll wait for the next time someone will invest in out brand, maybe in 10 or 20 years - if I'm still alive then..."

Except it is not that small. D&D has millions of players all over the world (if you add pathfinder players to the D&D players).

Lol, that was in the 80s and 90s The entire tabletop RPG market has gone to the gutters since then.

 

[Desur]

First of all: I wasn't serious (duh)
Calling n-Space a semi-big company is being generous, most of the CoC fans here on the 'dex would be anxious and slightly hopeful at best, they might support the project unless (or rather until) it became apparent that the devs won't deliver - at which point they would demand their heads. Clearly paying for lousy products in hope their later incarnations might improve upon the predecessors' shortcomings is very naïve.
Also, the D&D community is not all that small and one should make the distinction between P'n'P D&D fans and cRPG fans in general - if the game is good why would the wider public not play? Because they are not familiar with the system? How many RPGs have you played without prior knowledge and understanding of the mechanics? Quite a lot I presume or you haven't really played all that many cRPGs after all.
As a side note: if a studio like n-Space can get their hands on the rights to the D&D universe then maybe it's time for another codex fundraiser to bribe whoever is responsible for making this decision at WotC to have a studio of our choice make the next D&D game. That would truly be incline.

 

[ArchAngel]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

What you need to understand is that D&D is a small niche market. People and gamers generally don't give a shit about D&D, and we have barely gotten anything in the last 10 years. Think that you're part a small obscure community of die hard Call of Cthulu fans. What would they do if a semi-big company would be willing to make a game on their brand? They would creep out of their holes and get the game and hope that their support would contribute to increase the general public interest in their stuff and hopefully more would come their way. They wouldn't sit down and "no, this in the rulebook isn't represented well enough here in the game, I'll wait for the next time someone will invest in out brand, maybe in 10 or 20 years - if I'm still alive then..."

Except it is not that small. D&D has millions of players all over the world (if you add pathfinder players to the D&D players).

Lol, that was in the 80s and 90s The entire tabletop RPG market has gone to the gutters since then.

Have those players all died? At worst they got children now that they want to play D&D as well. Even if you stop playing PnP they will still want to play cRPG D&D that reminds them of the tabletop days.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Cool review bro, after all the talk of 'beggars can't be choosers' I didn't realise it was one of the best D&D games ever made. You might want to link your RPGWatch thread to the review though, I'm sure it will go down well over there

 

[Jimmious]

Cool review bro, after all the talk of 'beggars can't be choosers' I didn't realise it was one of the best D&D games ever made. You might want to link your RPGWatch thread to the review though, I'm sure it will go down well over there

Holy shit that's awesome

 

[Mortmal]

Cool review bro, after all the talk of 'beggars can't be choosers' I didn't realise it was one of the best D&D games ever made. You might want to link your RPGWatch thread to the review though, I'm sure it will go down well over there

I dont like to point and shame, but really after reading this i was tempted to ask to ban this guy in site feedback .Now they are paying people to write review and write positive things about heir scam on forums, thats a new low.

 

[ArchAngel]

Cool review bro, after all the talk of 'beggars can't be choosers' I didn't realise it was one of the best D&D games ever made. You might want to link your RPGWatch thread to the review though, I'm sure it will go down well over there

Haha nice find. So toroks is just a shill

 

[toroks]

Well, I never hid the fact that I like the game. The story campaign and voice acting is actually really good, and the Characters are interesting (Izhkin and Hommet Shaw are the highlights). Act 2 and 3 are better than Act 1, so you'll have to stick in there a while to really appreciate it. I rank the story campaign above NWN2 (which was quite dull), on par with NWN1, but bellow BG1,BG2 and Planescape Torment. The Icewind Dale games didn't have companions with personality, so I didn't find them that interesting.

 

[toroks]

Cool review bro, after all the talk of 'beggars can't be choosers' I didn't realise it was one of the best D&D games ever made. You might want to link your RPGWatch thread to the review though, I'm sure it will go down well over there

I dont like to point and shame, but really after reading this i was tempted to ask to ban this guy in site feedback .Now they are paying people to write review and write positive things about heir scam on forums, thats a new low.

A player and a fan of the game I am, but sorry to disappoint you - I never saw any money from Nspace

 

[ArchAngel]

Well, I never hid the fact that I like the game. The story campaign and voice acting is actually really good, and the Characters are interesting (Izhkin and Hommet Shaw are the highlights). Act 2 and 3 are better than Act 1, so you'll have to stick in there a while to really appreciate it. I rank the story campaign above NWN2 (which was quite dull), on par with NWN1, but bellow BG1,BG2 and Planescape Torment. The Icewind Dale games didn't have companions with personality, so I didn't find them that interesting.

 

[toroks]

Hilarious. The path to getting good D&D games is by buying bad D&D games. Geez. This whole time I was under the impression that devs need to simply make a good D&D game to get a good D&D game. Silly me.

If the devs are so bad that the game they created is a pos even in their own eyes yet it sells well they might think it is what the fans want and try to recreate the creative process that led to it. Since they are terrible at their job they will end up making a bad SCL clone - quite possibly something good(-ish)
Think about it

What you need to understand is that D&D is a small niche market. People and gamers generally don't give a shit about D&D, and we have barely gotten anything in the last 10 years. Think that you're part a small obscure community of die hard Call of Cthulu fans. What would they do if a semi-big company would be willing to make a game on their brand? They would creep out of their holes and get the game and hope that their support would contribute to increase the general public interest in their stuff and hopefully more would come their way. They wouldn't sit down and "no, this in the rulebook isn't represented well enough here in the game, I'll wait for the next time someone will invest in out brand, maybe in 10 or 20 years - if I'm still alive then..."

Except it is not that small. D&D has millions of players all over the world (if you add pathfinder players to the D&D players).

Lol, that was in the 80s and 90s The entire tabletop RPG market has gone to the gutters since then.

Have those players all died? At worst they got children now that they want to play D&D as well. Even if you stop playing PnP they will still want to play cRPG D&D that reminds them of the tabletop days.

I'll add that to your list of cute wishfull thinking along with your claim that I'm a shill because I like the game