Super Serious Scientific Analysis and Critique of BG2:SoA

[JarlFrank]

The only good thing about BG2 are the boss battles. The rest is inferior to BG1.

expand on that.

I don't like the graphics of BG2 because they're too stylized. Every place, room, plane, laboratory tries to look as outlandish and exotic as possible. I never liked that. I like it simple and pure like FALLOUT and JAGGED ALLIANCE 2.

I prefer BG2 to BG1 visually because it actually looks interesting. Places look different and you feel like you're actually exploring a fantasy world. In BG1, everything looks generic. Visually, BG1 just felt bland and boring to me.

Story in BG1 is better (it makes sense!). BG2 feels like a twist-dragger-story (what ever that is).

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus. Factions are also much more interesting, there's the whole shadow war thing, and the area BG2 is set in is inherently more interesting than the area BG1 is set in.

No exploration feel in BG2.

There are less generic forest maps to traverse, yes. But for me, the generic forest maps in BG1 just seemed like boring filler rather than exciting exploration. I like the more condensed BG2, where only actually interesting locations get to be explored, without 5 maps of boring filler in between. The locations themselves have more to discover than the locations in BG1, which made exploration in BG2 more enjoyable to me than in BG1.

BG1 has Durlag's Tower; I was disappointed with every dungeon in BG2. I never liked planes in RPGs, again: they just try to be exotic and outlandish. I always end up thinking about the smile of the designer who is so proud of himself.

BG1 has Durlag's Tower... which is the only noteworthy dungeon in the game for me. Other dungeons are generic mines and caves... yawn. Labyrinths that should be cool in theory but are bad in practice due to having way too narrow hallways that fuck up pathfinding and are just a timewaster because their winding pathways lead you to walk in circles all the time. Eh. There's not a single dungeon in BG1, apart from Durlag's, that is in any way memorable to me.

BG2, meanwhile, has the area beneath Athkathla's graveyard where the vampire lairs are, the ruined temple of Amaunator, Firkraag's lair, the sections in the Underdark, the Cult of the Unseeing Eye, the D'Arnise Keep, the Planar Sphere... and those are just the most memorable ones that jumped into my head right now. Each of these was interesting and cool to explore, and no matter how hard I think about it, I can't come up with any equivalent dungeons for BG1. The exotic planar stuff was actually great and I wished more D&D RPGs would explore that kind of stuff, everything in BG2 had a fantastic flair to it, while BG1 was mostly generic pseudo-medieval fantasy that has been done five million times before.

 

[Reapa]

expand on that.

There's no need to; it's all in my blogpost. Also happy I trigged a dullard like you to retard spam x10.

you're welcome. and i don't read blogs. it just never caught on in my world.

 

[Sykar]

Lilura has a good point generally imo about the visuals.The Fallouts and even more JA2 have more "clean" sprites, you can generally clearly see what is what on a glance. The BGs have amazing backgrounds but the toons themselves kind of mash together and create a "foggy" visual result.
Even the examples that I saw here that supposedly prove how much better BG is clearly show that.

JA 2 seriously? Where every goon looks almost the same with like 2 different body types for men and 1 body type for women and all are wearing the same boots, pants and shoes? Even Deidranna has the same sprite as every other female in the game.
Some animations are better and that is about it. BG 2 has a lot more variety in terms of characters, almost every race has its own type sans half elves/elves and you can clearly see if one is wearing leather types of armor, chain mail, plate armor, robes or nothing. The main villains even have their very own character models with unique animations. This to me is worth a lot more than some "smoother" animations in JA 2. JA 2 looks like crap in comparison to BG 2 overall.

 

[funkadelik]

Baldur's Gate is the game that made me expect future RPGs to show equipment on characters and enemies.

 

[Neanderthal]

My problem wi BGs is same as its always been:

1. They're ARPGs, combats fairly much only way to advance.
2. Painted backdrop world, can't interact wi it like you can in earlier games worlds, except for few places where dev tells you to.
3. NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life. Companions get what little details there are.
4. Character models got worse between one an two.
5. Sword Coast.
6. Magic fairly much gimped an limited to combat, almost all non combat AD&D spells wasted.
7. Romances.
8. Obscene focus on Elves.
9. Transit options straitjacketed, no horses, no wagons, no teleports (except scripted,) no ships, no flying carpets, not even a featherfall
10. Loading screens on tiny maps.

Alltogether unambitious an a clear degeneration from previous generation. That said I enjoyed em for what they were, just not that impressed.

 

[Mark Richard]

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus. Factions are also much more interesting, there's the whole shadow war thing, and the area BG2 is set in is inherently more interesting than the area BG1 is set in.

Also Serevok is only seen twice in the game - once at the beginning and once at the end. His big plan is to create an iron crisis and monopolise the market, then use that power to make a play for the throne. One wonders why the game needs to be set in Forgotten Realms at all, in some ways its a very dry fantasy story. The trade federation forming a blockade around Naboo had more fantasy than this.

 

[Lilura]

you're welcome. and i don't read blogs. it just never caught on in my world.

One of the best things about having a good blog is: thousands of people read my monocled opinions on RPGs every week, whereas only hundreds of people will read your shitposts before this thread gets buried and forgotten.

 

[pomenitul]

opinions

 

[NotAGolfer]

Fallout anims are impressive to this day and only Jagged Alliance 2 did more. Diablo 1 anims are also better than BG, but they are nowhere near Fallout calibre

Bullshit.
Prince of Persia animations are impressive to this day.
Fallout ones are just fun to look at because they are over the top gory.
Doesn't change the fact that some of them look dated because frames are missing or the speed isn't right (unarmed punch or plasma rifle for example ... heck even the running animation looks like crap, they should have added some turn around frames in there, that zigzagging is Benny Hill level of silly).
The same thing is not a problem when playing BG 1 or 2 at all because these games don't rely on that stuff to such a degree (maybe because party vs 1 char, like with swarms of fish and not being able to focus on one for too long ^^). Also the animations that are in there still look more fluid than Fallout's.
Get your eyes checked, mang.

The other thing that Fallout has going for it besides the gory and fun kill animations are the scifi theme (I vastly prefer that over fantasy) and the music. Graphics are too low res though and didn't age nearly as well as BG's. Also grid movement outside of combat sucks ass.

 

[deama]

I think the problem with not being able to accept BG's shit aging is because of multiple replays. If you look at a blurry pile of shit for long enough it will look like it's obviously a pile of shit, but for someone who hasn't looked at it for fucking years, then they won't catch on so quickly that it obviously looks like a pile of fucking shit.

 

[NotAGolfer]

I think the problem with not being able to accept BG's shit aging is because of multiple replays. If you look at a blurry pile of shit for long enough it will look like it's obviously a pile of shit, but for someone who hasn't looked at it for fucking years, then they won't catch on so quickly that it obviously looks like a pile of fucking shit.

I wanna punch you in the face so bad, you motherfucking retard.

 

[Delterius]

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus. Factions are also much more interesting, there's the whole shadow war thing, and the area BG2 is set in is inherently more interesting than the area BG1 is set in.

Also Serevok is only seen twice in the game - once at the beginning and once at the end. His big plan is to create an iron crisis and monopolise the market, then use that power to make a play for the throne. One wonders why the game needs to be set in Forgotten Realms at all, in some ways its a very dry fantasy story. The trade federation forming a blockade around Naboo had more fantasy than this.

That was his dad's plan. Sarevok wants to become murdergod by murderizing lots of people.

 

[Bester]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

 

[deama]

I think the problem with not being able to accept BG's shit aging is because of multiple replays. If you look at a blurry pile of shit for long enough it will look like it's obviously a pile of shit, but for someone who hasn't looked at it for fucking years, then they won't catch on so quickly that it obviously looks like a pile of fucking shit.

I wanna punch you in the face so bad, you motherfucking retard.

Come at me cunt

 

[Lilura]

Bullshit.

Indeed, you are full of it. Along with all the other BG2 fanboys. I've covered BG2 more than anyone else in recent years, but I don't become a fundie. Get on my level, cretin.

 

[NotAGolfer]

I'm not even a BG fanboy (I like the games but replayed them at most once, hardly makes me a fan), I'm just not mentally and visually handicapped like you are.

I think the problem with not being able to accept BG's shit aging is because of multiple replays. If you look at a blurry pile of shit for long enough it will look like it's obviously a pile of shit, but for someone who hasn't looked at it for fucking years, then they won't catch on so quickly that it obviously looks like a pile of fucking shit.

I wanna punch you in the face so bad, you motherfucking retard.

Come at me cunt

...
Where are we with the süüüüper serious scientific analysis btw? Any progress on that front?

 

[Bester]

Lilura If you blog, it's fine. It may even be an interesting read sometimes. I've read your entries on SOD to help me solve riddles or whatever.

But if you then act like your opinions are now facts and everyone should worship you, you're wrong. But then if you also start acting like an obnoxious bitch, calling people "just random shitposter while I'm the queen of BG cause I blog about it", you can just fuck off right here and right now.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

NPCs lack schedules or any kind on interesting personal life.

Never found that an issue. And later games like Oblivion and Skyrim boast these schedules, but these schedules bring nothing to the table.
In vtmb the prince doesn't go take a shit etc, but is that an issue? Now imagine running around the city trying to find him, cause he walks around doing god knows what. Would that be fun?

Standing NPCs is the way to go. They can walk around their room, but I draw the line there.

Not only that but he's lying as well, you go in certain places at certain times in BG1 and there's different stuff happening, shopkeepers aren't there, bedrooms have people sleeping in them at night etc. Funny thing is, I agree with you, it's more irritating that anything. Want to sell-up, res-stock and move out at 01:00am? Tough shit, might as well rest again for no other reason than that's all you can do.

 

[JarlFrank]

BG1 is much worse than BG2 in almost every aspect, girl. Stop proving that women have no taste.

 

[Cross]

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus. Factions are also much more interesting, there's the whole shadow war thing, and the area BG2 is set in is inherently more interesting than the area BG1 is set in.

Also Serevok is only seen twice in the game - once at the beginning and once at the end. His big plan is to create an iron crisis and monopolise the market, then use that power to make a play for the throne. One wonders why the game needs to be set in Forgotten Realms at all, in some ways its a very dry fantasy story. The trade federation forming a blockade around Naboo had more fantasy than this.

That's not why Sarevok wanted to engineer a war. Because Bhaal's portfolio is 'murder', Sarevok thought he could use the mass bloodshed resulting from the war as a ritualistic act to become the new Bhaal. This is made quite clear in the game.

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus.

So you don't care about Sarevok killing your foster father, orphaning you and sending tons of assassins after you, but Irenicus kidnapping Imoen (who was contrivedly retconned into a fellow Bhaalspawn) is somehow a massive improvement? Not to mention Sarevok is a Bhaalspawn himself and a dark mirror to the player whereas Irenicus is just some power-hungry elf who conveniently stumbled on the player. I'm not even saying the story in BG1 is better, but claiming it's less personal than BG2's story makes little sense.

 

[Xeon]

Overall based on characters alone, I really like Sarevok over Irenicus.

Irenicus started out phenomenon all the way up until his motivation was revealed during his attack to his tribe or whatever, he went from a badass mage to an emo bitch who only wants revenge. Sarevok wanted to ascend and was more than happy doing anything he can to get to that goal.

Edit:
I loved the second dream in BG2, but I heard that's from the taint of bhaal or something mostly.

 

[octavius]

One of the best things about having a good blog is: thousands of people read my monocled opinions on RPGs every week, whereas only hundreds of people will read your shitposts before this thread gets buried and forgotten.

And you can just delete posts you don't like, instead of giving Shit ratings.

 

[Brancaleone]

Jesus Christ, I did not know we had a blogger on the Codex. I mean, we talking about someone with a blog. An actual blog, with, y' know, pages of waffling and stuff.

I cannot believe you guys have the impudence of feeling entitled to open your uncouth mouths when faced with a blog.

 

[Lilura]

Lilura If you blog, it's fine. It may even be an interesting read sometimes. I've read your entries on SOD to help me solve riddles or whatever.

But if you then act like your opinions are now facts and everyone should worship you, you're wrong. But then if you also start acting like an obnoxious bitch, calling people "just random shitposter while I'm the queen of BG cause I blog about it", you can just fuck off right here and right now.

The post I linked to is factual; I added an opinion piece at the end.

And you can just delete posts you don't like, instead of giving Shit ratings.

I don't do that, though. There is proof in the comment stream that I've allowed criticism through. Also, I credit anyone who exposes my errors and omissions - even if I don't like them.

 

[JarlFrank]

Same with the story, it just felt bland and boring to me in BG1. There are interesting elements but overall it's just meh. I never cared about any of the characters. BG2, on the other hand, was much more engaging: the antagonist directly hurts you in the beginning so it's personal (Sarevok kills your mentor whom you actually meet in-game for a 10 minute prologue... ok, I don't give a fuck), and all the faction quests are directly relevant to your goal of getting revenge on Irenicus.

So you don't care about Sarevok killing your foster father, orphaning you and sending tons of assassins after you, but Irenicus kidnapping Imoen (who was contrivedly retconned into a fellow Bhaalspawn) is somehow a massive improvement? Not to mention Sarevok is a Bhaalspawn himself and a dark mirror to the player whereas Irenicus is just some power-hungry elf who conveniently stumbled on the player. I'm not even saying the story in BG1 is better, but claiming it's less personal than BG2's story makes little sense.

It's all a matter of presentation. BG1's presentation is just bland and generic overall, and honestly, when playing it nothing really gripped me. You don't really get to build up a relationship with the foster father in BG1's intro. You do some fetch quests in Candlekeep for random people you'll never meet again, then Gorion is killed by some guy you never met before, and you have to go do things. Not a very gripping setup.

In BG2, you *yourself* start out imprisoned and Irenicus tortures you personally. You manage to escape along with a bunch of companions, including Imoen, and you will have interactions with these companions while you make your way through the starter dungeon. They're also part of your party and you actively control them in combat. This way, you gain more of an attachment to them than you ever got for Gorion. And when I first played BG2 I hadn't even played the first game before, so Imoen, Minsc, Jaheira weren't familiar characters for me - they still managed to feel like old companions due to the interactions I had with them in the starter dungeon. Then, when you escape, the guy who tortured you abducts one of your companions who, when I first played the game, even was the only mage AND the only thief in my party. Whoa! I actually lost a character whom I've become attached to while going through a dungeon together, which is also a character who filled in an important role within my party! Yeah, of course I fucking care about getting her back, I want my thief/mage back!

Meanwhile, Gorion is just a dude you talk to like two or three times or what, and the only reason you're supposed to care about him is because the game tells you he's your foster father. Ok.