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HotSnack

Cipher
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
650
Nintendo did a complete 180 on their competitive gaming policy (for Smash4 at least), when they realised they needed to win over the competitive smash community to secure sales. You can see this in their hilariously misguided (or possibly mocking giving its Sakurai) "For Glory" competitive mode in Smash 4 which is no items, final destination. IIRC they were very accommodating with Smash4 being shown at tourneys as it meant sales of their shiny new game, as opposed to showing people still playing a 15 year old game or hacks. This was all during the hooha with Nintendo being slow on the uptake on all this newfangled youtube LPs and was banning content creators left and right, so they were trying to win back as much goodwill as they can.

Nintendo is just some weird multi-headed monster that is at one moment repulsed by its fanbase (not that I can blame them) but then comes crawling back to them when they need the money.
 

hajro

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
598
Madcatz will probably organize a USF4 side tournament, no worries there tbh. Hopefully its a Team tournament.
 

pakoito

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 7, 2012
Messages
3,092
As long as MKX is on EVO I don't care for the rest :P
possibly_retarded.png


SonicFox vs The World is hype tho.
 

HotSnack

Cipher
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
650
I hear they're planning to use a LoL-like ranking system now. I'm not familiar with the system, but it has to be an improvement over the current system of "win 5 evenly ranked matches and gain 100 points, lose one match against a lower ranked player and watch them run away with your 100 points".
 

HotSnack

Cipher
Joined
Mar 7, 2006
Messages
650
Viscant has started doing character analysis as part of his SFV articles. It's a really interesting read:

https://www.brokentier.com/blogs/br...hit-the-ground-running-2-the-first-8-fighters

hitthegroundrunning2_1024x1024.png

Hit The Ground Running, Viscant - February 03, 2016

Hit The Ground Running #2: The First 8 Fighters
An article series by Jay "Viscant' Snyder


The access we've had to early pre-release versions of SFV is unprecedented in fighting games. We've had an opportunity to play multiple builds and see changes that we never got to see before in earlier titles.


Usually when a game first comes out, the first couple months are spent just trying to figure out exactly what the developers intended. It's a mini game that's both fun and frustrating at the same time. You'll look at a move and think “why is this move so bad, it looks like it should do something specific but it doesn't work for that at all. Why would they do that?” And the answer is usually because someone found something in testing. This time around since there were so many various builds that the public had access to and since everything is on youtube it's much easier to follow the trail and understand the reasoning behind various nerfs and buffs better than we could have in previous games.


This process has major implications for competitive play. If something is changed, I want to know WHY it was changed. If a buff was given late in the development process, it was given for a reason. It's a finger pointing you in the right direction. And a nerf isn't necessarily just a middle finger straight from Capcom to you. A nerf is telling the player “we want you to look at other parts of this character” just as often as it is a “we don't like you don't this, please stop!” And even when it's the latter, that can be a starting point just as much as an ending point. If Capcom thinks something is overpowered, this intrigues me. If you're telling me I can't have something, that just makes me want it even more. It makes me want to look for as many possible other ways to get whatever it is they took away.


So we're going to break down the first 8 characters now, focusing mostly on the changes that affected the character's overall gameplan. There are too many changes and too many builds to go over everything but I'll try to hit the biggest and most important ones. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm going to assume that Capcom is smart and they know what they're doing. Not all changes will work out exactly as they intended but I'm going to assume that all the changes have a purpose. Let's get started.


Ryu

Ryu is a good place to get started because he's received round after round of nerfs. Almost every time a new build was released Ryu would have something taken away from him. This upset a lot of people who started calling the game Nerf Fighter 5 and what not. So let's look at the major changes and try to understand why things changed.

A lot of the nerfs Ryu received early on in the patching process were combo related nerfs and this is mostly because Ryu was the hardest hitting character early on. His medium hurricane lost the ability to hit crouching characters. This serves no other purpose than to lower his damage output off of common starters a little bit. Towards fierce into low fierce was removed during the third beta before the change was reversed in the final beta.

Back roundhouse into standing strong was taken away during the third beta as well. These changes were made so that the normals would retain their purpose but the damage output for landing one goes down a bit. This is especially important for the back roundhouse button which we've learned through the beta tests is one of Ryu's best buttons to throw out any time. It comes out in 8 frames, leaves him neutral on block and still leads to standing short into uppercut. They could have nerfed this kick even more and it would still be a great button to throw out there as often as possible.

Other combo nerfs were less for damage and more for function. He lost the ability to cancel out of crouching short into uppercut. So instead of low short, low short, uppercut, you can still do crouching short, crouching jab, standing short into uppercut for example, but that requires you to be closer and a string with two lows is easier to catch people flinching with. Also Ryu lost the ability to do standing strong into sweep as a link. This is an interesting nerf because the combos you can get instead of the sweep, like a low forward into fireball or crouch fierce into uppercut for example, will actually do more damage than just the sweep. But positioning is the key here, the game doesn't want you to pressure with safe-ish jump in setups or meaty back roundhouse.

And what we've learned from the beta process is that the game REALLY doesn't want you to have any kind of setup that either guarantees the unblockable denjin or sets up unblockable denjin mixups in any way. Any time one pops up like off a crush counter sweep, the next revision of the game would take it away.


This is exactly the kind of thing that I look for when reading patch revisions. It's a clear signal that Capcom thinks something is too good. You can't really fight against combo related nerfs; either something combos or it doesn't, there isn't a lot of room for the player to game the system. But when it comes to setups, there's wiggle room here. We know what kinds of setups used to work, now it's up to us to find things that either work just like the setups that are gone or are sort of like those.


For example corner setups involving full meter are still in and likely will remain in the final build. Ryu can make the opponent block crouching fierce in the corner, activate v-trigger, shoryuken into critical art, then combo them while they're staggered. This setup will likely remain intact. Capcom has known about this setup for multiple builds and left it alone. It requires full v-trigger and full super meter and there are opportunities for the opponent to v-reversal out.


And then there's the group of setups that are somewhat similar to previous setups but not guaranteed. Ryu can wait for the opponent to jump, activate v-trigger to freeze time then jab shoryuken to hit them with just the tip of his fist. Then when he lands, charge up the denjin. This is not a guaranteed setup because they still have the option of quickrising or staying down but people were using it in the final beta last weekend to some success and since it isn't guaranteed it stands a good chance of remaining in the final build.


While Ryu's damage has been normalized and isn't likely to ever reach the levels he had in the E3 build where he was hitting the high 300s regularly, the denjin setups he lost might be replaced. If he can get back the kind of reliable unblockable setups that work in real matches that he had in earlier builds, this character is going to be a major threat.


Chun-Li

If Ryu is one side of the nerf coin, Chun-Li is the other. Ryu was brought down damage wise by a repeated wave of nerfs but Chun-Li was mostly left alone. And at least for her sake the process seemed to have worked out. Most people seem to consider her to be one of the day 1 top tier characters largely due to things she had in the earliest builds.


Take her bread and butter combo for example, the low jab, standing strong, low forward into forward spinning bird kick combo. A pretty straight forward, 200+ damage confirm. But during the Mad Catz V Cup, commentators said on stream that this combo was the main reason she was a top tier character. What's the big deal? The big deal is that very few characters retained the ability to link lights to mediums. And very few characters retained the ability to have 3 normal hit confirms. And very few 3 normal hit confirms are safe with all normals. Chun has all of these in one and even has frame advantage on her low jab and standing strong. In earlier versions, most of the available characters had something like this but theirs all got taken away. Why did Chun retain hers?


It's impossible to say for sure but it's likely due to her v-trigger. In order to keep the overhead link into low jab, low jab link into low forward and towards roundhouse link into low jab in v-trigger the hit advantage on low jab couldn't be tweaked any further than it actually is. Taking out her light to medium hit confirm would require a complete overhaul of the character.


She didn't dodge the nerfs completely, but the major ones she received didn't affect her core gameplay too much. Along the way back roundhouse was made less effective as an anti-air but this was one of the nerfs that was more a suggestion to do something else than a hard “stop doing that” nerfs. Air throw and jump straight up roundhouse pick up a lot of the anti-air slack and using standing short as an anti-air actually leads to a mixup which is a better situation than the original. She lost combo damage and some cancels off her low fierce but this was made up for with the change to her spinning bird kick when the forward version was changed to hit crouching characters. So actually her bread and butter confirm off a light was technically BUFFED from first builds to the final beta. Before she'd have to finish combos with lightning legs which does less damage and doesn't create as strong a setup.


So what are the tradeoffs here? Does Chun-Li have any negatives at all? Her main negative in Capcom's eyes may be execution. The spinning bird kick cancel in her bread and butter is difficult. It's nothing that Chun players shouldn't have mastered in a few weeks but by SF5 standards, it's pretty tough. And her instant air stomp and low air lightning legs. She's had those tricks since the first public beta and most people theorized she'd lose them. They're still there and they're still somewhat high risk techniques; missing either of them will leave you wide open. Also Capcom played with her health repeatedly, lowering it all the way to 900 before walking it back a little bit. Another clear sign that they recognize that the character has strong tools and it'll take other methods to balance her out.


So while this is a more technical Chun-Li than previous versions of her have been, she also looks strong right out of the box, which is a really good sign if you're a Chun-Li player. Low health, high execution characters are usually good in Street Fighter games. Over time people will master almost anything that seems difficult on first glance. She seems to be a big winner in the beta process mostly by having her key and defining tools left alone.


Nash

Nash has had an up and down beta process. In the first public beta people hated the character. Everyone thought he was cool but they also thought he was surely the weakest. Then in the second public beta he was mentioned with Karin and Vega as possibly the strongest in the game. Even after a healthy wave of nerfs between the second and third public betas he was still thought of as a very strong character and that opinion has stayed the same going into the final build. Almost all the changes the character has gone through in the end come down to one question. How much safe pressure is this character allowed to apply?


A major nerf the character took between the second and third public betas was regarding his standing jab. At first a lot of people assumed this was a combo nerf. Nash could no longer go from his short-foward target combo into his jab-strong, or from low short to the jab-strong target combo. The jab would push away. And yes, this does affect the amount of low risk damage Nash can generate but the more important change was pressure related. Making the jab push away farther makes it harder for Nash to start sonic boom and moonsault slash pressure.


The moonsault slash was at the same time an overrated and underrated move during the betas. On the one hand Combo Fiend had to come right out and say “guys, this is a worse version of Adon's jaguar kick, don't be afraid of it, just hit a button and you stop it!” So the move became overrated for a time because people would just do moonsault slash, jab strong, moonsault slash, jab strong, etc. as a block string or just naked moonsault slash for no reason and expect to get away with it. This was never a great idea but people still complained.


But the move was also underrated because the threat of repeated moonsault slashes would allow Nash to start mixing in strong and fierce sonic booms at a range that could set up crush counter opportunities, overheads, dash into throw or low short mixups and that sort of thing. In addition to the previously mentioned standing jab nerf, Capcom changed the frame data on Nash's sonic booms just as a double nerf. Fierce sonic boom went from +1 to -1 on block at point blank and strong sonic boom went from -3 to -5. They really didn't like this strategy.


But what's interesting to me is that they left the frame data of moonsault slash mostly alone. They want the move to still have a purpose but just weren't so sure about the followups it generated. All strengths are still positive on block and you can still get one jab out, you just can't use the target combo to evaluate before committing to your next move. So there are still opportunities to create strong pressure with the move, it's just slightly more of a risk. You'll have to count on the opponent knowing that they're supposed to block after moonsault slash to do low strong into sonic boom and then carrying on, or a slightly unsafe low jab into sonic boom. But seeing as how strongly discouraged this kind of pressure was, it makes me want to know exactly what I can salvage going forward. This character wasn't supposed to be able to press this hard, so how much can I still get away with?


Another interesting change comes in the juggle properties of Nash's sonic scythes and v-skill. In the second public beta, Nash could do roundhouse sonic scythe and then EX sonic scythe for a big damage ender in the corner. They took it away by the time the third public beta rolled around and that seemed to be the end of that. But during the PAX build and the final beta, they gave a little something back in the ability to use v-skill as a juggle ender. This set up an interesting v-skill cancel to v-trigger teleport mixup in the corner but it also made me ask some theoretical questions.


That may be the newest way to use v-skill in combos and in blockstrings but it isn't the only way. How much should Nash risk trying to get a second v-trigger usage per round? It's mostly safe on block (-4) so I've noticed some Nash players using it in blockstrings or after fierce sonic booms. It seems like by adding juggle properties Capcom is gently reminding players that the v-skill is for more than just wiping out fireballs. Seeing as how v-trigger is almost guaranteed damage the way people are playing the game now, if Nash could get two v-triggers per round, he'd become a monster. Is it worth going out of your way for though? Time will tell.

M.Bison

Bison has possibly undergone more minor changes to his gameplay than any other character, even including Ryu. His general gameplan looks about the same, his combos look about the same so most people who don't play Bison a lot haven't seen what's going on here. But if you look closely, almost all of his special moves and some of his important normals have changed.

The scissor kick changed in almost every build up until the third public beta. During the E3 build the short scissor kick was slightly negative but still safe always. For the first build that Ken was introduced in, the short scissor became very unsafe and was easily punished, possibly as unsafe as -7 at point blank although no conclusive testing was done in this build. They changed that back to -4 for the second public beta where it's stayed since then. After that they started changing the forward and roundhouse scissors. From the third public beta onwards, forward scissors has been -3 and roundhouse scissors has been -2. So the move is actually backwards from Street Fighter 4, the higher strength versions are safer.

From the second to third public betas psycho blast was changed pretty dramatically also. The move went from -6 for jab, -3 for strong and -3 for fierce to -4 for jab, -1 for strong and +2 for fierce. The move was then buffed again in the final beta with a slightly expanded hit box, most noticeable on the fierce version of the move.

Then you look at the psycho inferno. For the E3 build and first public beta this move had frame advantage on the higher strengths of the move and was a charge move. Then for the second public beta it was a charge move but highly negative on block. And for the third and the final versions it became a motion move that was even more negative on block, -12 for jab, -11 for strong and -10 for fierce.

When you look at the three changes together the message is clear. Capcom is telling Bison players that they have to choose between minimal frame disadvantage and safety on block strings. They can't have both like with SF4 scissors or E3 build psycho inferno. The fierce psycho blast looks like the no brainer solution to all block strings but it's also easily interruptible.

Then you look at his normals. Low forward went through a pretty significant change from the second public beta to the third one. Originally the move was not cancellable but positive on block and able to link back to jabs or low strong. The move is now cancellable but no longer has frame advantage. Bison players are divided on this change. Is it a nerf or a buff? On the one hand for a character who walks as slow as Bison, losing meaty pressure is a big blow. But on the other hand, a move with good range that you can option select to scissors or walking forward option select to psycho inferno is pretty nice since walking away from Bison was solid strategy in earlier builds. Time will tell on that change.

There is no ambiguity with the psycho axe though. Changing the move from -1 in the second public beta to +1 in the later versions is a major buff. Previously Bison players were trying to find a use for a move like this, thinking that if it was going to be this slow it should at least be an overhead. But with frame advantage it allows Bison to get back in to create more frame traps without having to walk or jump. This is a clear signal from Capcom to use this move more.

In the end everything with this character is going to come down to speed and how the character is able to move forward and apply pressure. On pure walk speed the character is the slowest in the game, even slower than Dhalsim. He has no overhead and no real ability to tick throw. He has to spend meter to advance safely and create mixups once he's out either with EX scissor kick (+1 on block) or EX psycho blast which becomes a slow moving fireball that he can dash or headstomp behind. His walk speed means that he's missing things that most characters take for granted, not just in SF5 but in Street Fighter in general.

But in return he has things that SF5 characters aren't supposed to have. Capcom made a big deal out of hard knockdowns being out of the game. But Bison EX scissor kick is a guaranteed hard knockdown. Before the second public beta Bison's dash was changed to a teleport that allows him to phase through normals; it's less a dash and more of KoF style roll. He can also generate damage from his low short, with low short, low jab, standing short, psycho blast. In v-trigger you can cancel that to EX scissors or EX psycho blast to EX headstomp near corners making a low short a major damage dealer. Street Fighter 5 characters aren't supposed to have that, especially a character who has a v-trigger dash that's a built in left-right mixup.

I see Bison as an experiment more than a character. How effective can a frame trap character be without the threat of a throw? Is the white life mechanic scary enough that the other side is going to be afraid to block 3, 4, 5 strings in a row? Or will they just yawn and keep on blocking until they can finally get away and turn the tide? Characters who lack basic fundamental tools but have things that no other character has tend to be either really strong or really weak, rarely anywhere in the middle. They either have enough tools to overcome their fundamental deficiencies or they don't. I'm super curious to see where Bison ends up.

Birdie

Just based on raw hours on public betas and locations tests, I've put more time into SFV Birdie than any other character. Here's the question I've been kicking over for months now. Is Birdie a grappler or isn't he? Let's look at the beta changes and his tools and try to find out.

It's clear that he wasn't a real grappler in the earliest builds and the first public beta. Players gravitated towards his pokes and hit confirms, especially off the low jab which was probably the single best normal in the game at that point in time. Even Tokido stopped what he was doing at E3 to mess around with Birdie's jab a little bit and when Tokido thinks he's found something, people should take notice, that guy is one of the best in the community at exploiting new games.

Even if jabs weren't going to be universally nerfed, clearly something had to be done. Command grab was one of Birdie's least important tools during the E3 build and the first public beta. What made him good was his strong midrange pokes, v-skill options, his 1 button anti-air with the low strong and that low jab. Players weren't fighting as aggressively with Birdie as Capcom had hoped since they didn't need point blank range to generate damage. At the time I posted in a few places that Birdie standing fierce and standing forward were unlikely to make the final build intact. A Capcom grappler just doesn't have those kinds of buttons.

But those buttons made it to the final version and will probably make it into the final game. Standing forward's hurtbox was tweaked a couple times from E3 but it's still an amazing button, borderline spammable in the mid-range. Standing strong also made it into the final beta intact as a counterpoking normal that combos into bull head.

But nothing was done to encourage the command grab until this final beta where the standing short was buffed from +5 on hit to +6. Birdie really only has two functional command grab ticks. Standing short into grab and point blank low forward into grab, the 3s Alex/CvS2 Yamazaki tick, usually done as a meaty since it's extra negative on block. Other buttons can be used but are much less likely and less suited for that purpose. Even with standing short being buffed a little bit, it's still not plus enough on hit to let the player react to the hit or block and then decide to finish the combo or go for a grab. The player has to decide in advance what they want to do. Going from a 3 light hit confirm to a 2 light hit confirm actually made Birdie play less like a grappler than he did in the earliest builds.

None of Birdie's other tools encourage grappler play either. The chains are designed to catch someone coming in. His v-skills are designed to be done at a distance, with the banana peel specifically designed to keep the opponent from approaching. He has one of the better one button anti-airs in the game with low strong. The aforementioned standing forward and standing fierce are distance pokes. The bull revenger hopping grab is only effective if the opponent is otherwise occupied at a distance either throwing a fireball or waking up. None of this toolset suggests an in close character at all!

I think Capcom is sending a clear message here. Does this mean Birdie's command grab is bad? No, definitely not, it may not have great range but has its uses. But if we're going to play the character most effectively out of the gate it makes sense to concentrate on the best parts of the character. I think the beta is telling us that Birdie is a strong character but not necessarily a grappler.

Cammy

Cammy is another of the characters who partially survived the universal light to medium combo nerfs. She retains the jab to target combo link since the first hit of the target combo, back+strong activates in 4 frames. So thanks to this link staying intact, she's another of the characters who can break 200 for no meter off a light. Not quite as good as Chun-Li's since the target combo won't always connect but it's still important.

If anything, her light button pressure game has been encouraged. In the final beta this weekend her standing short was buffed from 0 to +1 on block and her crouching short improved by 1 frame also. Now on paper these seem like minor changes, just 1 frame here and 1 frame there, but it's a nice buff for her throw and frame trapping game. Cammy was already one of the more effective characters in the tick throwing game, this just reads to me like encouragement from Capcom to keep at it and keep playing her like a Street Fighter 4 character in Street Fighter 5.

Other than minor frame related changes, the main changes to Cammy all revolve around her v-trigger bar. From her introduction up to the second public beta, Cammy could do three specials in v-trigger but from the third public beta onwards she can only do two. This is a huge nerf and I was surprised people didn't make a bigger deal out of it at the time. Since the main function for Cammy's v-trigger is combo extension, this change basically turned her v-trigger into a SFV version of an ultra. You fish for a normal, land one, activate v-trigger and combo to spiral arrow into cannon strike and then it's gone. Whereas before you still had enough to either look for a dive kick, or take a swing with a safe-ish spiral arrow, or fish for a hooligan.

In compensation she had her v-skill buffed from +1 to +2 on block for the third beta. Then for the final beta the v-skill was buffed again, going from 60 damage on hit to 90 damage on hit. Any time I see two straight rounds of buffs on the same move that makes me take notice. Was the move that bad to begin with? Or is Capcom just trying to encourage Cammy players to try to get two uses of v-trigger per round? I'm not sure but just like with Nash, if Cammy players can consistently sneak a second v-trigger per round, her damage potential goes way up.

Ken

I think when I said that I was going to address the changes from the “Capcom is smart” perspective, a lot of people scrolled down to the Ken section. I don't blame them. Ken is the most visibly nerfed character from earlier versions of the game, even worse than Ryu. After the third public beta he was almost everyone's pick for worst character in the game.

It makes sense why people would think this since big chunks of his gameplan were removed. He lost his basic confirm off low short. Low short, low jab, standing short no longer combos, the standing short is just too far away. He lost the ability to combo out of a counter hit overhead. The target combo launches instead of leaving the opponent standing which lowers his combo potential. All of that is bad but it looks a lot like some of the nerfs that other characters got.

It's the changes to his v-skill that have people up in arms. It was not just a major combo tool, with standing fierce into canceled v-skill comboing to either low jab or target combo. It was also used occasionally as a mixup tool. Sweep canceled to v-skill was never safe but from the third public beta and onwards it's as bad as -10. Even worse, all hits Ken takes out of the run animation are counter hits, meaning the v-skill used in this way is so negative, he can actually run into crush counters! The move used as an in close mixup tool simply doesn't work. Either Capcom deliberately put in a tool that sucks or they're trying to tell us that it's used for something else. So it's up to the players to find a use for the v-skill.

If the move doesn't work from in close and we're operating under the assumption that these changes happen for a reason, the logical thing to do is look for uses outside the in close mixup range. What is Capcom trying to tell us to use this tool for?

Cancelled v-skill has uses as a weaker version of Sagat's kara tiger uppercut from SF4. Ken can control the air from ranges where opponents think it's safe to jump from. He can use stop short or step kick as a semi-credible mixup when closing from half screen or greater. In a game where most characters move like their feet are encased in cement being able to set the distance at will has uses. Say Ken throws a fireball at slow moving characters like Nash. On reaction Ken can step kick if he sees Nash try to absorb the fireball at roughly half screen distance, something Nash doesn't have to worry about against too many other characters. Are these uses as good as what Ken had before? Obviously not. But these are the types of things that Ken players should be looking for instead of trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

Also it's a good idea to check Ken's other tools when looking at what range he's best at. And there's a strong case to be made that given Ken's toolset he should be fighting from further away than most people are playing him. It seems like most Ken players I ran into online are playing him at the low forward range which might be the worst possible place to play him. What other good tools made it through the adjustment process?

It turns out that many of these tools are in fact distance tools. Before the second public beta, Capcom adjusted the frame data on Ken's best distance poke, the standing roundhouse, making it -4 on block, basically safe in this game unless done way too close. His standing forward kick is a great range finder. Ken's short hurricane kick is also 3f startup, another tool that's best used at a range outside of where people are playing him. Ken can't threaten as effectively with air EX hurricane kick in close. But he can at slightly extended ranges.

As I said before, I don't think what Ken has right now is better than what he had during the second public beta but it's not like he has nothing. He has these distance tools. He has the best reversal punish in the game so far with 3f jab shoryuken and 4f EX shoryuken (the shoryureppa). A strong midscreen combo ender in roundhouse hurricane kick that leads to somewhat decent okizeme, which is great by Street Fighter 5 standards. These don't sound like “worst in the game” tools to me. Ken players will always miss what he once had but as long as they don't play him like he still has the old v-skill option, he's going to be a lot better off than people are saying right now.

Necalli

Necalli's been all over the place in the beta tests. He's been both a full motion character and a charge character and he ended up a character with motion moves and a charge move...except his charge move doesn't need to be charged sometimes. Confused yet? I feel like Capcom was when they started messing around with his inputs.

Necalli never had the tools that charge characters in Capcom games normally depend on to get by. These characters usually need some kind of move that moves them forward and allows them to hold a charge. You look at past Street Fighter games and historically Bison and Blanka had slides that let them hold their down charge and Blanka's had the hop since ST. Guile had bazooka knee letting him push in while still holding a back charge. Vega had a slide and backflips. And they usually have at least one strong normal that they can use while holding a charge. Bison has his long range kicks, Blanka had low fierce, Guile had low forward, Vega had low strong. After 25 years of this Capcom has learned what charge characters need to get by.

Necalli never had these things. His low forward and standing roundhouse were the closest thing to a traditional charge character normal but they weren't as good. It seemed like they just arbitrarily made him a charge character because Vega and Nash became motion characters and they needed another charger for variety's sake. So making his uppercut a motion move was a major buff to the character. The one good thing about the “is this move charge or motion” drama is that it gained invincibility along the way which is always helpful.

Overall his toolset is designed more for offense anyways with command grabs and a semi-credible air mixup between the divekick, jumping fierce and crossup jumping forward. His walk speed was also improved a little bit, further cementing the change. He still has the reputation of being a slow character but his forward walk speed was buffed to just slightly under Chun and Vega and pretty close to Cammy.

He received another interesting offense oriented buff in the final beta that went mostly unnoticed. After target combo into v-skill, Necalli can now juggle with 3f moves like jab or EX raging light but also with low short or low jab. In the corner this creates an interesting reset possibility. He can go for meaty standing roundhouse, overhead, command grab, etc. Most people ignored this since there are more high damaging options that the character can go for but it brings up two major questions with the character going forward.

How much value should Necalli players place on the reset game? Clearly Capcom is letting us know that the character was designed with resets in mind, his EX command grab is a giant advertisement that this character has a reset game but so far I haven't seen that much of it. Even outside of the new v-skill buff, on the occasions that Necalli players land an EX command grab, they usually just finish with uppercut instead of going for a reset.

And secondly is it worth sacrificing damage to get into v-trigger earlier? V-trigger Necalli is probably one of the stronger characters in the game and his stomps become much more dangerous as frame trapping options. But is it worth it to combo into v-skill or make it a priority to harass with v-skill at the midrange? We'll see.


_____



That's all for this week. Next week we're going to look at the final 8 characters. They've undergone fewer revisions than this set of 8 but there's still a lot we can learn from what we've seen so far. See you then!
 

The Decline

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Viscant has started doing character analysis as part of his SFV articles. It's a really interesting read:

https://www.brokentier.com/blogs/br...hit-the-ground-running-2-the-first-8-fighters

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Hit The Ground Running, Viscant - February 03, 2016

Hit The Ground Running #2: The First 8 Fighters
An article series by Jay "Viscant' Snyder


The access we've had to early pre-release versions of SFV is unprecedented in fighting games. We've had an opportunity to play multiple builds and see changes that we never got to see before in earlier titles.


Usually when a game first comes out, the first couple months are spent just trying to figure out exactly what the developers intended. It's a mini game that's both fun and frustrating at the same time. You'll look at a move and think “why is this move so bad, it looks like it should do something specific but it doesn't work for that at all. Why would they do that?” And the answer is usually because someone found something in testing. This time around since there were so many various builds that the public had access to and since everything is on youtube it's much easier to follow the trail and understand the reasoning behind various nerfs and buffs better than we could have in previous games.


This process has major implications for competitive play. If something is changed, I want to know WHY it was changed. If a buff was given late in the development process, it was given for a reason. It's a finger pointing you in the right direction. And a nerf isn't necessarily just a middle finger straight from Capcom to you. A nerf is telling the player “we want you to look at other parts of this character” just as often as it is a “we don't like you don't this, please stop!” And even when it's the latter, that can be a starting point just as much as an ending point. If Capcom thinks something is overpowered, this intrigues me. If you're telling me I can't have something, that just makes me want it even more. It makes me want to look for as many possible other ways to get whatever it is they took away.


So we're going to break down the first 8 characters now, focusing mostly on the changes that affected the character's overall gameplan. There are too many changes and too many builds to go over everything but I'll try to hit the biggest and most important ones. For the purpose of this exercise, I'm going to assume that Capcom is smart and they know what they're doing. Not all changes will work out exactly as they intended but I'm going to assume that all the changes have a purpose. Let's get started.


Ryu

Ryu is a good place to get started because he's received round after round of nerfs. Almost every time a new build was released Ryu would have something taken away from him. This upset a lot of people who started calling the game Nerf Fighter 5 and what not. So let's look at the major changes and try to understand why things changed.

A lot of the nerfs Ryu received early on in the patching process were combo related nerfs and this is mostly because Ryu was the hardest hitting character early on. His medium hurricane lost the ability to hit crouching characters. This serves no other purpose than to lower his damage output off of common starters a little bit. Towards fierce into low fierce was removed during the third beta before the change was reversed in the final beta.

Back roundhouse into standing strong was taken away during the third beta as well. These changes were made so that the normals would retain their purpose but the damage output for landing one goes down a bit. This is especially important for the back roundhouse button which we've learned through the beta tests is one of Ryu's best buttons to throw out any time. It comes out in 8 frames, leaves him neutral on block and still leads to standing short into uppercut. They could have nerfed this kick even more and it would still be a great button to throw out there as often as possible.

Other combo nerfs were less for damage and more for function. He lost the ability to cancel out of crouching short into uppercut. So instead of low short, low short, uppercut, you can still do crouching short, crouching jab, standing short into uppercut for example, but that requires you to be closer and a string with two lows is easier to catch people flinching with. Also Ryu lost the ability to do standing strong into sweep as a link. This is an interesting nerf because the combos you can get instead of the sweep, like a low forward into fireball or crouch fierce into uppercut for example, will actually do more damage than just the sweep. But positioning is the key here, the game doesn't want you to pressure with safe-ish jump in setups or meaty back roundhouse.

And what we've learned from the beta process is that the game REALLY doesn't want you to have any kind of setup that either guarantees the unblockable denjin or sets up unblockable denjin mixups in any way. Any time one pops up like off a crush counter sweep, the next revision of the game would take it away.


This is exactly the kind of thing that I look for when reading patch revisions. It's a clear signal that Capcom thinks something is too good. You can't really fight against combo related nerfs; either something combos or it doesn't, there isn't a lot of room for the player to game the system. But when it comes to setups, there's wiggle room here. We know what kinds of setups used to work, now it's up to us to find things that either work just like the setups that are gone or are sort of like those.


For example corner setups involving full meter are still in and likely will remain in the final build. Ryu can make the opponent block crouching fierce in the corner, activate v-trigger, shoryuken into critical art, then combo them while they're staggered. This setup will likely remain intact. Capcom has known about this setup for multiple builds and left it alone. It requires full v-trigger and full super meter and there are opportunities for the opponent to v-reversal out.


And then there's the group of setups that are somewhat similar to previous setups but not guaranteed. Ryu can wait for the opponent to jump, activate v-trigger to freeze time then jab shoryuken to hit them with just the tip of his fist. Then when he lands, charge up the denjin. This is not a guaranteed setup because they still have the option of quickrising or staying down but people were using it in the final beta last weekend to some success and since it isn't guaranteed it stands a good chance of remaining in the final build.


While Ryu's damage has been normalized and isn't likely to ever reach the levels he had in the E3 build where he was hitting the high 300s regularly, the denjin setups he lost might be replaced. If he can get back the kind of reliable unblockable setups that work in real matches that he had in earlier builds, this character is going to be a major threat.


Chun-Li

If Ryu is one side of the nerf coin, Chun-Li is the other. Ryu was brought down damage wise by a repeated wave of nerfs but Chun-Li was mostly left alone. And at least for her sake the process seemed to have worked out. Most people seem to consider her to be one of the day 1 top tier characters largely due to things she had in the earliest builds.


Take her bread and butter combo for example, the low jab, standing strong, low forward into forward spinning bird kick combo. A pretty straight forward, 200+ damage confirm. But during the Mad Catz V Cup, commentators said on stream that this combo was the main reason she was a top tier character. What's the big deal? The big deal is that very few characters retained the ability to link lights to mediums. And very few characters retained the ability to have 3 normal hit confirms. And very few 3 normal hit confirms are safe with all normals. Chun has all of these in one and even has frame advantage on her low jab and standing strong. In earlier versions, most of the available characters had something like this but theirs all got taken away. Why did Chun retain hers?


It's impossible to say for sure but it's likely due to her v-trigger. In order to keep the overhead link into low jab, low jab link into low forward and towards roundhouse link into low jab in v-trigger the hit advantage on low jab couldn't be tweaked any further than it actually is. Taking out her light to medium hit confirm would require a complete overhaul of the character.


She didn't dodge the nerfs completely, but the major ones she received didn't affect her core gameplay too much. Along the way back roundhouse was made less effective as an anti-air but this was one of the nerfs that was more a suggestion to do something else than a hard “stop doing that” nerfs. Air throw and jump straight up roundhouse pick up a lot of the anti-air slack and using standing short as an anti-air actually leads to a mixup which is a better situation than the original. She lost combo damage and some cancels off her low fierce but this was made up for with the change to her spinning bird kick when the forward version was changed to hit crouching characters. So actually her bread and butter confirm off a light was technically BUFFED from first builds to the final beta. Before she'd have to finish combos with lightning legs which does less damage and doesn't create as strong a setup.


So what are the tradeoffs here? Does Chun-Li have any negatives at all? Her main negative in Capcom's eyes may be execution. The spinning bird kick cancel in her bread and butter is difficult. It's nothing that Chun players shouldn't have mastered in a few weeks but by SF5 standards, it's pretty tough. And her instant air stomp and low air lightning legs. She's had those tricks since the first public beta and most people theorized she'd lose them. They're still there and they're still somewhat high risk techniques; missing either of them will leave you wide open. Also Capcom played with her health repeatedly, lowering it all the way to 900 before walking it back a little bit. Another clear sign that they recognize that the character has strong tools and it'll take other methods to balance her out.


So while this is a more technical Chun-Li than previous versions of her have been, she also looks strong right out of the box, which is a really good sign if you're a Chun-Li player. Low health, high execution characters are usually good in Street Fighter games. Over time people will master almost anything that seems difficult on first glance. She seems to be a big winner in the beta process mostly by having her key and defining tools left alone.


Nash

Nash has had an up and down beta process. In the first public beta people hated the character. Everyone thought he was cool but they also thought he was surely the weakest. Then in the second public beta he was mentioned with Karin and Vega as possibly the strongest in the game. Even after a healthy wave of nerfs between the second and third public betas he was still thought of as a very strong character and that opinion has stayed the same going into the final build. Almost all the changes the character has gone through in the end come down to one question. How much safe pressure is this character allowed to apply?


A major nerf the character took between the second and third public betas was regarding his standing jab. At first a lot of people assumed this was a combo nerf. Nash could no longer go from his short-foward target combo into his jab-strong, or from low short to the jab-strong target combo. The jab would push away. And yes, this does affect the amount of low risk damage Nash can generate but the more important change was pressure related. Making the jab push away farther makes it harder for Nash to start sonic boom and moonsault slash pressure.


The moonsault slash was at the same time an overrated and underrated move during the betas. On the one hand Combo Fiend had to come right out and say “guys, this is a worse version of Adon's jaguar kick, don't be afraid of it, just hit a button and you stop it!” So the move became overrated for a time because people would just do moonsault slash, jab strong, moonsault slash, jab strong, etc. as a block string or just naked moonsault slash for no reason and expect to get away with it. This was never a great idea but people still complained.


But the move was also underrated because the threat of repeated moonsault slashes would allow Nash to start mixing in strong and fierce sonic booms at a range that could set up crush counter opportunities, overheads, dash into throw or low short mixups and that sort of thing. In addition to the previously mentioned standing jab nerf, Capcom changed the frame data on Nash's sonic booms just as a double nerf. Fierce sonic boom went from +1 to -1 on block at point blank and strong sonic boom went from -3 to -5. They really didn't like this strategy.


But what's interesting to me is that they left the frame data of moonsault slash mostly alone. They want the move to still have a purpose but just weren't so sure about the followups it generated. All strengths are still positive on block and you can still get one jab out, you just can't use the target combo to evaluate before committing to your next move. So there are still opportunities to create strong pressure with the move, it's just slightly more of a risk. You'll have to count on the opponent knowing that they're supposed to block after moonsault slash to do low strong into sonic boom and then carrying on, or a slightly unsafe low jab into sonic boom. But seeing as how strongly discouraged this kind of pressure was, it makes me want to know exactly what I can salvage going forward. This character wasn't supposed to be able to press this hard, so how much can I still get away with?


Another interesting change comes in the juggle properties of Nash's sonic scythes and v-skill. In the second public beta, Nash could do roundhouse sonic scythe and then EX sonic scythe for a big damage ender in the corner. They took it away by the time the third public beta rolled around and that seemed to be the end of that. But during the PAX build and the final beta, they gave a little something back in the ability to use v-skill as a juggle ender. This set up an interesting v-skill cancel to v-trigger teleport mixup in the corner but it also made me ask some theoretical questions.


That may be the newest way to use v-skill in combos and in blockstrings but it isn't the only way. How much should Nash risk trying to get a second v-trigger usage per round? It's mostly safe on block (-4) so I've noticed some Nash players using it in blockstrings or after fierce sonic booms. It seems like by adding juggle properties Capcom is gently reminding players that the v-skill is for more than just wiping out fireballs. Seeing as how v-trigger is almost guaranteed damage the way people are playing the game now, if Nash could get two v-triggers per round, he'd become a monster. Is it worth going out of your way for though? Time will tell.

M.Bison

Bison has possibly undergone more minor changes to his gameplay than any other character, even including Ryu. His general gameplan looks about the same, his combos look about the same so most people who don't play Bison a lot haven't seen what's going on here. But if you look closely, almost all of his special moves and some of his important normals have changed.

The scissor kick changed in almost every build up until the third public beta. During the E3 build the short scissor kick was slightly negative but still safe always. For the first build that Ken was introduced in, the short scissor became very unsafe and was easily punished, possibly as unsafe as -7 at point blank although no conclusive testing was done in this build. They changed that back to -4 for the second public beta where it's stayed since then. After that they started changing the forward and roundhouse scissors. From the third public beta onwards, forward scissors has been -3 and roundhouse scissors has been -2. So the move is actually backwards from Street Fighter 4, the higher strength versions are safer.

From the second to third public betas psycho blast was changed pretty dramatically also. The move went from -6 for jab, -3 for strong and -3 for fierce to -4 for jab, -1 for strong and +2 for fierce. The move was then buffed again in the final beta with a slightly expanded hit box, most noticeable on the fierce version of the move.

Then you look at the psycho inferno. For the E3 build and first public beta this move had frame advantage on the higher strengths of the move and was a charge move. Then for the second public beta it was a charge move but highly negative on block. And for the third and the final versions it became a motion move that was even more negative on block, -12 for jab, -11 for strong and -10 for fierce.

When you look at the three changes together the message is clear. Capcom is telling Bison players that they have to choose between minimal frame disadvantage and safety on block strings. They can't have both like with SF4 scissors or E3 build psycho inferno. The fierce psycho blast looks like the no brainer solution to all block strings but it's also easily interruptible.

Then you look at his normals. Low forward went through a pretty significant change from the second public beta to the third one. Originally the move was not cancellable but positive on block and able to link back to jabs or low strong. The move is now cancellable but no longer has frame advantage. Bison players are divided on this change. Is it a nerf or a buff? On the one hand for a character who walks as slow as Bison, losing meaty pressure is a big blow. But on the other hand, a move with good range that you can option select to scissors or walking forward option select to psycho inferno is pretty nice since walking away from Bison was solid strategy in earlier builds. Time will tell on that change.

There is no ambiguity with the psycho axe though. Changing the move from -1 in the second public beta to +1 in the later versions is a major buff. Previously Bison players were trying to find a use for a move like this, thinking that if it was going to be this slow it should at least be an overhead. But with frame advantage it allows Bison to get back in to create more frame traps without having to walk or jump. This is a clear signal from Capcom to use this move more.

In the end everything with this character is going to come down to speed and how the character is able to move forward and apply pressure. On pure walk speed the character is the slowest in the game, even slower than Dhalsim. He has no overhead and no real ability to tick throw. He has to spend meter to advance safely and create mixups once he's out either with EX scissor kick (+1 on block) or EX psycho blast which becomes a slow moving fireball that he can dash or headstomp behind. His walk speed means that he's missing things that most characters take for granted, not just in SF5 but in Street Fighter in general.

But in return he has things that SF5 characters aren't supposed to have. Capcom made a big deal out of hard knockdowns being out of the game. But Bison EX scissor kick is a guaranteed hard knockdown. Before the second public beta Bison's dash was changed to a teleport that allows him to phase through normals; it's less a dash and more of KoF style roll. He can also generate damage from his low short, with low short, low jab, standing short, psycho blast. In v-trigger you can cancel that to EX scissors or EX psycho blast to EX headstomp near corners making a low short a major damage dealer. Street Fighter 5 characters aren't supposed to have that, especially a character who has a v-trigger dash that's a built in left-right mixup.

I see Bison as an experiment more than a character. How effective can a frame trap character be without the threat of a throw? Is the white life mechanic scary enough that the other side is going to be afraid to block 3, 4, 5 strings in a row? Or will they just yawn and keep on blocking until they can finally get away and turn the tide? Characters who lack basic fundamental tools but have things that no other character has tend to be either really strong or really weak, rarely anywhere in the middle. They either have enough tools to overcome their fundamental deficiencies or they don't. I'm super curious to see where Bison ends up.

Birdie

Just based on raw hours on public betas and locations tests, I've put more time into SFV Birdie than any other character. Here's the question I've been kicking over for months now. Is Birdie a grappler or isn't he? Let's look at the beta changes and his tools and try to find out.

It's clear that he wasn't a real grappler in the earliest builds and the first public beta. Players gravitated towards his pokes and hit confirms, especially off the low jab which was probably the single best normal in the game at that point in time. Even Tokido stopped what he was doing at E3 to mess around with Birdie's jab a little bit and when Tokido thinks he's found something, people should take notice, that guy is one of the best in the community at exploiting new games.

Even if jabs weren't going to be universally nerfed, clearly something had to be done. Command grab was one of Birdie's least important tools during the E3 build and the first public beta. What made him good was his strong midrange pokes, v-skill options, his 1 button anti-air with the low strong and that low jab. Players weren't fighting as aggressively with Birdie as Capcom had hoped since they didn't need point blank range to generate damage. At the time I posted in a few places that Birdie standing fierce and standing forward were unlikely to make the final build intact. A Capcom grappler just doesn't have those kinds of buttons.

But those buttons made it to the final version and will probably make it into the final game. Standing forward's hurtbox was tweaked a couple times from E3 but it's still an amazing button, borderline spammable in the mid-range. Standing strong also made it into the final beta intact as a counterpoking normal that combos into bull head.

But nothing was done to encourage the command grab until this final beta where the standing short was buffed from +5 on hit to +6. Birdie really only has two functional command grab ticks. Standing short into grab and point blank low forward into grab, the 3s Alex/CvS2 Yamazaki tick, usually done as a meaty since it's extra negative on block. Other buttons can be used but are much less likely and less suited for that purpose. Even with standing short being buffed a little bit, it's still not plus enough on hit to let the player react to the hit or block and then decide to finish the combo or go for a grab. The player has to decide in advance what they want to do. Going from a 3 light hit confirm to a 2 light hit confirm actually made Birdie play less like a grappler than he did in the earliest builds.

None of Birdie's other tools encourage grappler play either. The chains are designed to catch someone coming in. His v-skills are designed to be done at a distance, with the banana peel specifically designed to keep the opponent from approaching. He has one of the better one button anti-airs in the game with low strong. The aforementioned standing forward and standing fierce are distance pokes. The bull revenger hopping grab is only effective if the opponent is otherwise occupied at a distance either throwing a fireball or waking up. None of this toolset suggests an in close character at all!

I think Capcom is sending a clear message here. Does this mean Birdie's command grab is bad? No, definitely not, it may not have great range but has its uses. But if we're going to play the character most effectively out of the gate it makes sense to concentrate on the best parts of the character. I think the beta is telling us that Birdie is a strong character but not necessarily a grappler.

Cammy

Cammy is another of the characters who partially survived the universal light to medium combo nerfs. She retains the jab to target combo link since the first hit of the target combo, back+strong activates in 4 frames. So thanks to this link staying intact, she's another of the characters who can break 200 for no meter off a light. Not quite as good as Chun-Li's since the target combo won't always connect but it's still important.

If anything, her light button pressure game has been encouraged. In the final beta this weekend her standing short was buffed from 0 to +1 on block and her crouching short improved by 1 frame also. Now on paper these seem like minor changes, just 1 frame here and 1 frame there, but it's a nice buff for her throw and frame trapping game. Cammy was already one of the more effective characters in the tick throwing game, this just reads to me like encouragement from Capcom to keep at it and keep playing her like a Street Fighter 4 character in Street Fighter 5.

Other than minor frame related changes, the main changes to Cammy all revolve around her v-trigger bar. From her introduction up to the second public beta, Cammy could do three specials in v-trigger but from the third public beta onwards she can only do two. This is a huge nerf and I was surprised people didn't make a bigger deal out of it at the time. Since the main function for Cammy's v-trigger is combo extension, this change basically turned her v-trigger into a SFV version of an ultra. You fish for a normal, land one, activate v-trigger and combo to spiral arrow into cannon strike and then it's gone. Whereas before you still had enough to either look for a dive kick, or take a swing with a safe-ish spiral arrow, or fish for a hooligan.

In compensation she had her v-skill buffed from +1 to +2 on block for the third beta. Then for the final beta the v-skill was buffed again, going from 60 damage on hit to 90 damage on hit. Any time I see two straight rounds of buffs on the same move that makes me take notice. Was the move that bad to begin with? Or is Capcom just trying to encourage Cammy players to try to get two uses of v-trigger per round? I'm not sure but just like with Nash, if Cammy players can consistently sneak a second v-trigger per round, her damage potential goes way up.

Ken

I think when I said that I was going to address the changes from the “Capcom is smart” perspective, a lot of people scrolled down to the Ken section. I don't blame them. Ken is the most visibly nerfed character from earlier versions of the game, even worse than Ryu. After the third public beta he was almost everyone's pick for worst character in the game.

It makes sense why people would think this since big chunks of his gameplan were removed. He lost his basic confirm off low short. Low short, low jab, standing short no longer combos, the standing short is just too far away. He lost the ability to combo out of a counter hit overhead. The target combo launches instead of leaving the opponent standing which lowers his combo potential. All of that is bad but it looks a lot like some of the nerfs that other characters got.

It's the changes to his v-skill that have people up in arms. It was not just a major combo tool, with standing fierce into canceled v-skill comboing to either low jab or target combo. It was also used occasionally as a mixup tool. Sweep canceled to v-skill was never safe but from the third public beta and onwards it's as bad as -10. Even worse, all hits Ken takes out of the run animation are counter hits, meaning the v-skill used in this way is so negative, he can actually run into crush counters! The move used as an in close mixup tool simply doesn't work. Either Capcom deliberately put in a tool that sucks or they're trying to tell us that it's used for something else. So it's up to the players to find a use for the v-skill.

If the move doesn't work from in close and we're operating under the assumption that these changes happen for a reason, the logical thing to do is look for uses outside the in close mixup range. What is Capcom trying to tell us to use this tool for?

Cancelled v-skill has uses as a weaker version of Sagat's kara tiger uppercut from SF4. Ken can control the air from ranges where opponents think it's safe to jump from. He can use stop short or step kick as a semi-credible mixup when closing from half screen or greater. In a game where most characters move like their feet are encased in cement being able to set the distance at will has uses. Say Ken throws a fireball at slow moving characters like Nash. On reaction Ken can step kick if he sees Nash try to absorb the fireball at roughly half screen distance, something Nash doesn't have to worry about against too many other characters. Are these uses as good as what Ken had before? Obviously not. But these are the types of things that Ken players should be looking for instead of trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

Also it's a good idea to check Ken's other tools when looking at what range he's best at. And there's a strong case to be made that given Ken's toolset he should be fighting from further away than most people are playing him. It seems like most Ken players I ran into online are playing him at the low forward range which might be the worst possible place to play him. What other good tools made it through the adjustment process?

It turns out that many of these tools are in fact distance tools. Before the second public beta, Capcom adjusted the frame data on Ken's best distance poke, the standing roundhouse, making it -4 on block, basically safe in this game unless done way too close. His standing forward kick is a great range finder. Ken's short hurricane kick is also 3f startup, another tool that's best used at a range outside of where people are playing him. Ken can't threaten as effectively with air EX hurricane kick in close. But he can at slightly extended ranges.

As I said before, I don't think what Ken has right now is better than what he had during the second public beta but it's not like he has nothing. He has these distance tools. He has the best reversal punish in the game so far with 3f jab shoryuken and 4f EX shoryuken (the shoryureppa). A strong midscreen combo ender in roundhouse hurricane kick that leads to somewhat decent okizeme, which is great by Street Fighter 5 standards. These don't sound like “worst in the game” tools to me. Ken players will always miss what he once had but as long as they don't play him like he still has the old v-skill option, he's going to be a lot better off than people are saying right now.

Necalli

Necalli's been all over the place in the beta tests. He's been both a full motion character and a charge character and he ended up a character with motion moves and a charge move...except his charge move doesn't need to be charged sometimes. Confused yet? I feel like Capcom was when they started messing around with his inputs.

Necalli never had the tools that charge characters in Capcom games normally depend on to get by. These characters usually need some kind of move that moves them forward and allows them to hold a charge. You look at past Street Fighter games and historically Bison and Blanka had slides that let them hold their down charge and Blanka's had the hop since ST. Guile had bazooka knee letting him push in while still holding a back charge. Vega had a slide and backflips. And they usually have at least one strong normal that they can use while holding a charge. Bison has his long range kicks, Blanka had low fierce, Guile had low forward, Vega had low strong. After 25 years of this Capcom has learned what charge characters need to get by.

Necalli never had these things. His low forward and standing roundhouse were the closest thing to a traditional charge character normal but they weren't as good. It seemed like they just arbitrarily made him a charge character because Vega and Nash became motion characters and they needed another charger for variety's sake. So making his uppercut a motion move was a major buff to the character. The one good thing about the “is this move charge or motion” drama is that it gained invincibility along the way which is always helpful.

Overall his toolset is designed more for offense anyways with command grabs and a semi-credible air mixup between the divekick, jumping fierce and crossup jumping forward. His walk speed was also improved a little bit, further cementing the change. He still has the reputation of being a slow character but his forward walk speed was buffed to just slightly under Chun and Vega and pretty close to Cammy.

He received another interesting offense oriented buff in the final beta that went mostly unnoticed. After target combo into v-skill, Necalli can now juggle with 3f moves like jab or EX raging light but also with low short or low jab. In the corner this creates an interesting reset possibility. He can go for meaty standing roundhouse, overhead, command grab, etc. Most people ignored this since there are more high damaging options that the character can go for but it brings up two major questions with the character going forward.

How much value should Necalli players place on the reset game? Clearly Capcom is letting us know that the character was designed with resets in mind, his EX command grab is a giant advertisement that this character has a reset game but so far I haven't seen that much of it. Even outside of the new v-skill buff, on the occasions that Necalli players land an EX command grab, they usually just finish with uppercut instead of going for a reset.

And secondly is it worth sacrificing damage to get into v-trigger earlier? V-trigger Necalli is probably one of the stronger characters in the game and his stomps become much more dangerous as frame trapping options. But is it worth it to combo into v-skill or make it a priority to harass with v-skill at the midrange? We'll see.


_____



That's all for this week. Next week we're going to look at the final 8 characters. They've undergone fewer revisions than this set of 8 but there's still a lot we can learn from what we've seen so far. See you then!
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HotSnack

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My copy of SFV arrived early today. Not that it matters because it's release locked on steam. :negative:

Edit:
Part 2 of Viscant's character breakdown is out:

https://www.brokentier.com/blogs/br...-hit-the-ground-running-3-the-next-8-fighters


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Hit The Ground Running, Viscant - February 10, 2016

Hit The Ground Running #3: The Next 8 Fighters
An article series by Jay "Viscant" Snyder.

This week we're going to look at the last 8 characters to be introduced to Street Fighter 5. These characters were all first introduced into playable builds later on than the first set we looked at so there are naturally fewer changes to analyze. Still all of them but FANG have been introduced and tinkered with a bit so there's a little bit of a trail to follow and something to learn. In the cases of the characters with fewer changes I'll add in some general observations so they don't feel too left out.

Just like with the first 8 characters, I'm going into this assuming Capcom is smart. Not all of the changes may work out in the end but I'm going to assume they're all well thought out and done for a reason. Let's get started.


Vega

Vega's been a tricky character to balance due to the stance change mechanic. Unlike with previous stance change characters like Gen, the goal for SF5 was to make Vega not just a different character with his claw on and claw off but also not dramatically better in one stance or the other. At least for the earlier versions of the game this didn't work out quite as intended, with claw off being the preferred Vega stance. Many Vega players weren't using the claw very much, and some like Graham Wolfe would just take the claw off at the start of the match and never use it at all.

So when you look at changes from the second public beta onwards, you start to notice that the changes seem to be better for the claw stance than for barehanded. For example after the second public beta, his v-trigger was changed to also hit crouching characters. While the change affects both stances, the claw on stance gets a bigger benefit. Claw on Vega is better suited to fish with low strong and towards fierce into v-trigger. If Vega's holding full v-trigger and full super meter with the claw on, he can take 50% off the opponent off almost any poke, jumpins, really anything, very similar to SF4 Gen.

The change to the short roll is another change that affects both stances but seems to be a little bit better for claw on than claw off. After the second public beta, the short roll was changed from -4 on block to -6. So for situations where Vega isn't quite sure whether the roll will combo cleanly or not, it's in his best interest to not even try it. You could get away with some blocked rolls at -4 but -6 is pushing your luck. Claw on has the better of this change since he can finish questionable strings either with standing strong or strong aurora spin edge (which doesn't combo but is very safe on block), while barehanded Vega is left in a shakier situation.

Another example of a change hurting barehanded Vega more is the change to the standing short. Vega lost 1 frame of hit advantage on his standing short after the second public beta, with the move changing from +5 to +4. But this change hurts the claw off form more. He loses the ability to link standing short to low strong, losing 50-75 damage on a basic confirm. This also affects his tick into command throw game by reducing the risk-reward on his best tick normal making a minor 1 frame nerf into something that can affect the entire gameplan.

The change to low fierce hurts the barehanded stance slightly more also. The hitbox on the normal was changed after the second public beta generally weakening Vega's anti-air game, making him have to choose between multiple options. But with the claw on he has fierce aurora spin edge, a better jump back fierce, a better low fierce and the held v-skill with claw on can be somewhat effective for anti-air.

That's not to say that all is bad for the claw off stance as it's still arguably a little bit better than the claw on version. Claw off usually has access to more damaging combos. Compare a basic hit confirm. Off low forward, claw on can get low forward, low jab into EX wall dive against standing characters, or low forward, low jab into short roll against crouching characters. But with claw off he can get low forward, target combo into EX wall dive against standing characters or low forward, low strong into forward roll against crouching characters. In both cases the damage difference is noticeable.

On that note, you may notice that Vega's combos are almost always different against standing and crouching. This is a deliberate design decision regarding the EX wall dive. The angle he takes going forward to the wall is a steeper angle than SF4, making it almost always whiff against crouchers. Capcom has stated that they wanted choosing between different combos at your disposal to be a bigger part of SF5 than SF4 and Vega's a good example of this.

But if wall dive is only a situational combo ender, what else is it for? If you watched the Churning the Butter tournament after the Mad Catz V Cup, you would have seen Graham Wolfe using barehanded EX wall dive in neutral. Also given that crush counter slide gives a hard knockdown, against characters without any legitimate wakeup options like Bison, he can use the wall dive as somewhat of a pressure tool, giving him a throw option and left-right mixup that he can combo out of while barehanded. I'm not sure either of these uses will hold up long term; UltraDavid has already put out a video showing that using EX wall dive against Zangief in neutral is almost always going to lead to air EX SPD. But the move seems clearly designed to have more uses outside of combos than SF4 so it's up to the player to see exactly what they can get away with.

More importantly it's also up to the player to explore both stances more fully. Capcom briefly nerfed the stance change mechanic during the first Dhalsim build, making standing fierce into stance change double digit negative on block. This only lasted in one build before they changed it back immediately. The change back implies that both stances should be used fluidly together instead of relying on one or the other even if most players I've seen on streams so far are still just using their favorite. These people are getting great results so far just using half the character, imagine how good he's going to be when people put it all together.


R.Mika

There's no real ambiguity when it comes to the Mika changes. The character received a major overhaul after the second public beta and you can fit almost all the important changes in one sentence. If she used it to get in, it got worse. The major changes with this character all revolve around one specific range, the edge of her poke range and slightly extended.

The most obvious change and the one that everyone first noticed was the change to her charged roundhouse kick, the dropkick. In the second public beta Mika could link to standing strong and get various followups from there. But from the third public beta onwards, the hit advantage was greatly reduced so the best she can get is the short-strong target combo into shooting peach. This is more than a damage related nerf, it also weakens her tick throwing game. It seemed a little unwarranted since this was a very comprehensive nerf for a move that most characters already had an answer to.

Some of the other changes are even harder to understand. The fierce version of the shooting peach had a specific range where it could be positive on block. They changed that move so that no range exists (that we've found so far) where the move is positive on block and it's much easier to hit at a range where the move is extremely negative on block, as bad as -11. This nerf felt like using a brick to swat a fly because the counter to the shooting peach was to just move out of that one specific range, forward, backwards, neutral jump, really anything but stand there. Combined with the dropkick nerf, the message is clear. Mika just isn't allowed to bypass the neutral from that extended range. She has to earn her way in.

So it was even more disappointing to Mika players when the buttons that they use to earn their way in were weakened. Her crouching forward had its hurtbox extended upwards. This button was excellent in the second public beta, able to low profile shoto fireballs even in blockstrings. The standing forward had its hitbox adjusted also, making it not quite as good as an entry poke. Still the best she has at that range but not as good as when the character was first introduced.

And in a nerf that's actually worse than most people realize, the target combo was changed from -2 on block to -5 on block, making it likely to be punished at virtually all ranges, even at the tip. I noticed people getting away with this on streams but it's more due to match inexperience and unfamiliarity than anything else. This change forces Mika to use more low short based confirms which serves to both lower her damage and lower tick effectiveness. Capcom wants Mika players to embrace the struggle in neutral.

But in close, she managed to keep most of her tricks. Her passion press, the irish whip, was nerfed in the third public beta to a point where the move didn't function midscreen. The opponent would fall down before hitting the edge of the screen, not allowing a combo followup. This change was removed in the final beta, making the passion press work much more like it did originally. This serves to keep her damage high off a successfully connected standing strong at most all screen positions, a welcome change. The one major followup of passion press that was permanently removed was the ability to cross under on a low fierce creating not just a strike-throw mixup but also a left-right mixup.

But left-right mixup isn't taken out completely. She retains the ability to cross under the opponent in and around corners with the towards fierce into low strong setup. It's not as ambiguous as the previous low fierce version but for a grappler any crossunder at all is a very valuable tool. The towards fierce in general was buffed from the third public beta onwards as it's now +3 on block, a really big number for a grappler. Given that it leads to her best possible reset opportunity, Capcom seems to be pushing this button on Mika players as a replacement for some of her previous options.

The main question with Mika is how she's going to handle the neutral with almost all of her important tools nerfed. Capcom left her extremely strong in close and didn't touch any of her Nadeshiko based ticks or combos even when people cried out to have them nerfed. If the player can get in repeatedly and get to close range, Mika seems to be one of the scariest characters in the game. It's just a question of how that's going to work against top level footsies.


Rashid

I feel like Rashid is explicit proof that Capcom used the beta tests as an intelligence gathering exercise. He's been one of the least played characters out of the 15 that have been playable so far and up until the final beta he'd received the fewest major changes. Either Capcom felt that they completely nailed the character (unlikely) or they just didn't have enough information to work with.

For example from his introduction up to the third public beta the biggest thing he lost was the ability to do an EX divekick from a neutral jump and that's a universal nerf, affecting Cammy and Ken as well. For character specific things, he lost crush counter fierce into roundhouse whirlwind and the second hit of towards strong didn't cancel into v-trigger anymore but other than that it was just minor frame related changes. His changelist up until the final beta read like there just wasn't enough information available.

He is one of the only characters to receive a somewhat major change between the third public beta and the final beta with a change to his whirlwind shots. The most interesting thing about the character is that whenever he interacts with wind effects it changes his movement giving him access to angles that other characters don't have. So in the third beta on hit he could do standing fierce into EX whirlwind shot, cancel to v-skill and then neutral jump. The EX whirlwind shot would still be there and carry Rashid a short distance and his neutral jump forward would become a crossup. The setup got even dirtier in situations somewhat near corners where fake crossups would come into play and he always had empty land into throw, empty land into low, etc.

For the final beta though, the wind effects seem to dissipate differently. The frame data on all relevant moves involved in the mixup is identical from the third public beta, to PAX build, to the final beta as near as I can tell, but something changed regarding the duration of the projectile itself that made some of the wind riding setups either work differently or not work at all.

Going into the full release figuring out exactly what we can salvage from these setups is priority number one. This one particular setup may have changed but it may still be possible to get others like it. When I get my hands on the final version I'm going to look at as many combinations of whirlwind shots as I can think of, trying to find opportunities to ride the wind.

Looking at other Rashid tools, it seems like Capcom is anticipating that the character will have up close pressure that's hard to deal with. We know that his towards roundhouse is a useful corpse hop. And we know that his damage off a low short is ridiculously low; the low short, stand jab into fully mashed LP spinning mixer confirm won't even break 100. Clearly his damage is limited due to fear of his mobility. But can he get the same kind of wind riding mixups without burning v-trigger?

Going forward if this character is going to be a top character, he needs to have more consistent ways to make the opponent miss a block. The way people are playing the character right now is simply not sustainable. I feel like a lot of online players think that jab spinning mixer is positive on block and a pressure tool when it's actually -2 as long as there are no wind effects in play. It's possible to get it to neutral on block with favorable wind but that's more trouble than it's worth. Same with the towards strong, it's a staple in online Rashid pressure but it's also -2. The airborne eagle spikes are almost always punishable, even if people aren't punishing them for now. It would be great if all of his third beta wind riding setups were still in but if they're not, Rashid players need to make new ones. Wind riding was the part of his game that had the most long term growth potential; if he doesn't have that in the final game, he's just not the same character we thought he was.


Karin

Speaking of online players getting away with murder, here's Karin! I see Karin as two separate characters. There's the shenanigans Karin and the footsies Karin. I see a lot of complaining about the wrong one. Footsies Karin is right up there with Chun-Li in the race for day 1 top tier. But people online complained about shenanigans Karin in the betas.

Most of what shenanigans Karin has is way worse than people think. The short mujinkyaku (chicken kick) is actually -5 on block and given that occasionally the second hit will whiff against crouching opponents, in real play it's sometimes worse than that. I've seen a lot of people claim that it's a mixup between the short version and the forward version that ends in an overhead but that's not true. The exact same timing you would use to jab punish the short version will interrupt the forward version. So there actually is no mixup and no safe pressure at all surrounding this move.

It's the same with the ressenha (overhead strike) and two followups. No version of this move is better than -4 on block (-6 for jab, -5 for strong, -4 for fierce) and the slide or grab followup doesn't come out fast enough to interrupt your punish as long as you're using the right normal. So again, there's actually no mixup on this assuming you make the first block. You don't need to make a read or evaluate your punish, the same one works for any version with any followup. If you're using a shoto for uppercut punish or Chun-Li for jab punish, you don't even have to be on time. The only truly safe special Karin has is the orochi (shoulder tackle), which is -2 on block. Everything else can be and should be punished.

And footsies Karin is so good that basically none of this matters. Her poking game with low forward, standing forward and standing roundhouse is so solid that she can get by without relying on any risky shenanigans and still have a solid gameplan. Capcom attempted to nerf her pokes a little bit in the final beta by adjusting the hurtboxes but the change doesn't seem dramatically noticeable. In the second and third public betas, her hurtboxes would actually move away during the retraction of the normal making whiff punishing her standing forward and standing roundhouse a chore. It's now slightly easier to whiff punish her but still very difficult because she pokes from ranges that most characters don't have.

As for major nerfs, she lost the ability to chain from her low short, but low short became cancellable in return. This is a pretty significant nerf to her in close throw game. She can still convert jabs into just frame tenko but if she's going to make an attempt to go low up close, she has to cancel to the short chicken kick on faith which is unsafe as talked about above.

The biggest nerf she took in the beta process came after the second public beta where she lost the ability to cross under on EX orochi. Previously she could standing strong into command dash and create an ambiguous left-right mixup that was almost impossible to react to. The message is clear that footsies Karin and shenanigans Karin are to be kept separate.

So this make me look for opportunities to get any other kind of left-right mixup off of solid play. The most obvious is standing fierce as anti-air into command dash and manually walk under, a more classical kind of cross under mixup. The problem is that standing fierce is not really great anti-air in this game; she has to mix in jumping options, low fierce and EX ressenha. But in situations that she can get away with it, it's a great tool to have.

Similarly she can create basic left-right based okizeme off of the tenko into mujinkyaku bread and butter juggle. The tenko and just frame tenko launch at different heights and you can input the mujinkyaku at different times creating many different looks against all wakeup options. In the second public beta she had a legitimate 4f safe jump against quick getup with this kind of setup. Height related changes on just frame tenko eliminated the original safe jump setup but with so many different timings and so many characters with no true reversal, I find it hard to believe that a credible safe jump and/or a solid crossup situation aren't in there somewhere. It's just up to the scientists to put in the work in the final version. She already has the fundamentals to be a top character, if you can add safe pressure and/or safe left-right mixups, she's going to stay a top character.


Laura

Laura seems to be the recipient of what a lot of characters left behind in the balance process. Like when Mika and Karin lost their ambiguous cross-under setups, I just assumed that entire style of mixup was officially discouraged by the game. If we wanted cross-under left-right mixups they had to look differently. But Laura has that. Or when Ken and Birdie lost counterhit overhead into a full combo, I assumed that kind of mixup was out of the game and that Capcom didn't want normal overheads to be combo starters under any circumstance. But now Laura has that also when they buffed her v-skill overhead in the final beta to be a crush counter.

The price for these goodies comes in the footsie game. No character is more dependent on counter hits or hard reads than Laura and if anything they actually made it worse in the final beta by changing her sweep from -8 on block to -12. It's an understandable change; a character with such a dangerous mixup game should be penalized when she goes fishing for a crush counter sweep and strikes out.

But beyond that it highlights how difficult it is for Laura to get started and to close from footsie range to mixup range. When the character was introduced and the v-skill mechanic was explained, people assumed she would play a little bit like Abel, canceling normals into v-skill and getting in like Abel did with step kick in SF4. The difference is that Abel is neutral after step kick and his tornado throws could beat strikes or other throws depending on which version he used. As of the third public beta, on blocked normal to v-skill dash, Laura can't be any better than -2. Standing strong to v-skill dash is -2. Crouching fierce is -2. Crouching strong is -3. Crouching forward is -6. For reference a blocked jab bolt charge is -2 also. These numbers didn't seem to change in the final beta and likely won't in the final version. -2 seems to be the magic number for Laura; if you're going to take a YOLO approach to getting in, you'll be safe but at a disadvantage. People were getting away with using this technique to get in during the final beta last weekend but it's going to have a short shelf life, the opponents will catch on eventually.

Also she has a difficult time confirming into damage off normals. Her only low starting combo without a counter hit is low forward into jab bolt charge or low forward into critical art. She has a 2 light confirm into jab bolt charge but other than that all her actual visual hit confirms require towards a fierce or a counter hit starter. Standing strong doesn't link to crouching strong without a counter hit. In a way this makes Laura feel a little incomplete. Her combos don't look like other SF5 combos.

If the character is going to be viable, she's going to have to make up for all these negatives with the reset situation. Her EX thunderclap into normal into v-skill dash is probably the single best mixup in the game discovered so far. A true 5 way mixup, with left high, left low, right high, right low and command throw all being represented off the same setup. It's a setup so good that it's worth tweaking her counter hit confirms into the EX thunderclap even if other combos would do more damage.

She also got a somewhat significant buff in the final beta with her normal throw range being extended. Her tick into normal throw game was overlooked since most people testing her out were concentrating more on tick into command throw but she has the normals to make walk based mixups work. Her standing short is +3 on block, her standing strong is +3 on block and since standing strong is a good button to fish for counter hits with, anything that makes that normal scarier is a good thing. Plus she gets better okizeme off a normal throw than most characters, still in range to go for a credible high/low/command throw mixup regardless of wakeup option.

In the end it seems like it's all going to come down to footsies. She has so many great tools in close but how can she get started? Current players are depending a lot on crush counter roundhouse and whiff punishing pokes with crouching forward into jab bolt charge to get in. And those are good options but given their lack of range it's led to a somewhat shallow footsie game when she's outside of her preferred range. That's going to be the difference between Laura as a gimmick and Laura as a frightening character.


Zangief

Zangief hasn't been in the game long enough to have very many changes. The one he did get is gigantic and we'll get to that. But to get a head start on SF5 Zangief it helps to understand Zangief's traditional role in new games. It's become a Street Fighter trope that grapplers are always strong early on, relative to their eventual strength, but as far as Capcom games go, really that's just Zangief. T.Hawk traditionally starts out weak and improves over time. It took us 15+ years to learn to play him in ST. Birdie is historically bad in the beginning of games (and intermediate stage, middle stage, endgame, etc. SF5 Birdie is already the best Birdie ever by default). There was never an Alex or Hugo early game boom period in the SF3 games they appeared in. Zangief is different for 3 reasons.

Players are more likely to play Zangief correctly fresh out of the box than any other SF character. The gameplan is not complicated. Get in. Drop them on their head. That's it. The line I usually use regarding Zangief in interviews is that he specializes in easy answers to otherwise complicated questions. Screw your frame trap that you spent 3 weeks on, I'll piledrive that. Eventually people will figure out the nuances of the game and play better footsies in time but Zangief players generally have the idea right fresh out of the gate. Even if the character has combos (and often he really doesn't; for 7+ years we've been exposed to hit confirming SF4 Zangief when that's not how Zangief traditionally plays) going for a heavy piledriver or siberian suplex is never a bad decision.

Zangief is traditionally easier execution wise at the beginning of a new game than any other character. This is a side effect of not having a lot of combos and important grappler mechanics cross over game to game. Just personally, I've been doing the same 720 setups since Alpha 2. Buffering the motion into a whiff, how to tick effectively, this stuff is always the same game to game. The button you use to hide your motion changes, the tick button changes, the actual skill behind it stays the same. Once a Zangief player learns the edge of his piledriver range and learns the frames on the buttons and any particular range extending tricks, they've mostly got that part of the grappling part of the game down for good.

But most importantly, playing against Zangief is different and engages different skills than playing against the rest of the cast. Things that are safe against other characters are not safe against Zangief. Either his piledriver is faster than other punish options or has longer range forcing you to change patterns that work well against the rest of the cast. Historically Zangief is effective against air characters and divekick characters due to lariat, fast piledriver setup and a tall and wide hitbox. And if you're going to be good against something in a Capcom game, being strong against divekicks is way up there on the list.

To be even more specific, the early game period is basically defined by people not having full matchup knowledge and full mastery over their character. When you can count on your opponents usually being bad against your character and your style, that's a big help in early tournaments.

So how does this translate over to SF5? Given the short amount of time he's been available is it going to be business as usual with Zangief dominating early on? Probably not.

For starters, Zangief is easier to play against in SF5 than he's been in earlier Street Fighter games and a lot of that has to do with the piledriver. SF5 piledrivers are 5 frame startup with none of them having strike invincibility and only EX SPD being throw invulnerable. Lariat is not all purpose anti-air either, Zangief has to choose between lariat, low fierce, jump straight up jab, jump up air piledriver and standing jab to cobble together anti-air, similar to how the rest of the cast handles the air game. Also for basically the first time in main SF titles, Zangief can be pressured by standard blockstrings and frame traps since he can't SPD through. Avoiding that part of the game is why I usually play this character in the first place! If anything, given lariat's limitations, Zangief is more vulnerable to counter hit traps and pressure than many other characters. This is huge.

Also there's going to be a new learning curve execution wise with Zangief. He isn't a combo character by any stretch of the imagination but comboing into 720 is a new mechanic for the Street Fighter series. Long time grappler players have learned to short short 720 as a tick for 20 years but doing it as a combo could take time to learn. Also getting minimum height air SPDs is a new skill to learn; most Zangief players have been trained to specifically avoid jumping on the 360 motion. I've seen enough v-trigger into whiffed ground SPD on streams to see that I'm not alone in screwing up the timing on this one at first.

And here's the big change in the beta process. SF5 Zangief was originally designed with a go to hit confirm combo but currently doesn't have one. During the first location tests showing him off, he was able to combo into EX SPD similar to how he's been able to combo into 720, off low strong, off short short, etc. But this was taken away from him by the time of the third public beta. His only non counter-hit, non-v-trigger hit confirms at this point are short lariat, headbutt into standing short into lariat, or jab short lariat. Not only that, since crouching characters have different sizes, comboing into lariat is going to take some adjusting to. It's not like Zangief historically NEEDS a confirm combo, he's gotten by fine without one in past games. But it's a significant nerf since the character was originally designed with a hit confirm combo in mind and now doesn't have a reliable one from ranges outside point blank.

I'm not saying Zangief is going to be bad. Given how he played in the final beta, I thought he was pretty solid overall and his armored fierce is going to completely dominate some matchups early on. Basically nobody has figured out how to maximize his v-skill yet so he has growth potential there. But expecting this Zangief to play like previous versions and dominate early on is probably not going to happen. The character still maintains a grappler identity but he's more standard to play against and the learning curve will likely be more standard with him as well. Everyone agrees that this isn't Street Fighter 4 Zangief but even beyond that, this isn't like any Zangief we've ever seen.


Dhalsim

Dhalsim's undergone a huge shift in player perception since he was first playable at the Canada Cup build. Long time Dhalsim players HATED him at first and now seem to be more positive. And really as near as I can tell nothing significant has changed since he was introduced. There are a few changes to note, the crouching strong wasn't cancellable in a couple of the early builds but seems to be cancellable again in the final beta. And v-trigger was significantly nerfed going from a 10 second duration to a 6 second duration. People reported that his limbs “seemed” faster in the final beta but there's no actual frame data evidence to support that, at least none that I've seen. So if anything the character is technically worse than he was in the Canada Cup build.

It's easy to understand why long time Dhalsim players weren't sold on him right away; the character is very different from classic Dhalsim. He has to spend meter to get a straight fireball. His limbs seem to linger on whiff, making whiff punishing limbs something relatively simple to do. The big one though is that there seem to be “dead zones” where Dhalsim players are used to controlling a certain part of the screen with a button except that button does something else in SF5. Most common dead zones I've heard are the area previously occupied by low jab and previously occupied by standing roundhouse. Dhalsim ranged low jab traditionally is a fast, low committal poke in about the half screen range and standing roundhouse is a combination range finder and distance anti-air. He doesn't have grounded buttons that serve those purposes anymore.

In return, Dhalsim has tools that this character archetype doesn't normally have. This time around he has an actual jab jab hit confirm, with jab jab into EX yoga flame something rare for this character archetype. He has yoga gale which finishes combos as an EX and gives him some interesting set play options. Filipino Champ discovered that this move can be as much as +13 when used meaty setting up basically anything you want. +13 isn't exactly a traditional Dhalsim number.

And beyond the yoga gale setup, Dhalsim seems to have some actual fully developed okizeme. He's a terror to back roll away from with the back teleport setting up both crossups and fake crossups with almost no visual clue to go off of. His fireballs have enough delay on them that the classic fireball into low air teleport mixup after his bread and butter combo ending in yoga flame or off a throw can be ambiguous as well. I'll be curious to see if Dhalsim's okizeme stays the same in the final version not just because Dhalsim doesn't usually have this kind of game but because most other SF5 characters don't have this kind of game either.

Going into final version I'm still really not sure what kind of character Dhalsim is going to be. So far his setplay looks better than his zoning based neutral and I'm curious to see if that's just the kind of character he is. Can he erase the dead zones in his poking and zoning game with v-skill normals like v-skill strong and v-skill roundhouse? And if not, is his rushdown game with drills and teleport mixups good enough to make up for it? I don't know and I don't think anyone else does either. Dhalsim seems to have the most question marks going into the final version; even the best long time Dhalsim players feel they have a lot more to learn with him.


F.A.N.G.

There's not much to say about FANG since he hasn't been made available in any public tests. There are only a few videos to look at so far. Here are probably the three most useful that have turned up. The longest and best one is Combo Fiend vs. Mike Ross and I'm not sure how much we can learn from this since FANG is supposedly a defensive zoner and Combo Fiend hasn't held down back for more than 3 seconds since 1997.





There isn't a lot of information on the character but let's go over what we know for sure. We know he's a charge character and we know that his projectile move is a down charge. That's pretty unique. From the videos we've seen, his combos don't seem to do a lot of damage without using critical art. It's rare that he goes over 300 even after spending two EX meters. They do always seem to leave the opponent poisoned so the absolute damage potential is higher than just raw numbers would suggest.

We know that his v-skill puts opponents into the poison state and builds up his v-trigger meter even if they're already poisoned when they interact with the ball. How valuable is v-trigger in general though? We know that his v-trigger poisons the opponent for just being near him, but if you look at most of the available footage the opponent seems to always be poisoned anyways. The real benefit of v-trigger seems to be combo extension. Maybe v-reversals are a better use of his meter?

On that note, I don't think we've seen his v-reversal in action very much at all. I'm curious to see how v-reversal acts in combination with the poison mechanic. While poison may be new to the Street Fighter series, it's been used in plenty of fighting games before and the concept of poisoning the opponent and countering away to safety when they finally get in strikes me as something to watch out for, something that could potentially be a strong strategy.

In the same vein, how will poison affect how people play against FANG? The goal of the mechanic is to make people take extra risks and impale themselves on his defenses. How close does FANG have to be in life to make the opponent play crazy? Because we know obviously if FANG's down 80% to 10% and he lands his v-skill, the opponent isn't going to go crazy and try to get in, they don't need to. But if it's 50% to 40% will they lose their composure and alter their playstyle? How will poison affect dedicated zoners? If you poison Dhalsim and represent that you're just going to hold down back, how does that change his gameplan? Does poison do enough damage to make him abandon his zoning or is it just not consequential in common match situations?



We'll all find out more about FANG and everyone else in the cast on Tuesday when the game comes out! Next Wednesday we're going to talk about setting goals for a new game and what mechanics to explore first now that we'll finally have our hands on the final version after all the months of waiting and speculating. See you then!
 

HotSnack

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I'm pretty amazed that Laura has managed to avoid the censorship hammer in every way. Like a view of Cammy's crotch and R Mika's butt is wrong, but Laura pushing her butt and boobs out during her intro and dat alt outfit is A-OK? :shredder:
 

Ellef

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PC release date moved forward, outside of Asia.

Europe........Feb. 16 @0:00AM UK (UTC+00:00)
AUS/NZ.......Feb. 16 @11:00AM Sydney (UTC+10:00)
Americas.....Feb. 16 @0:00AM EST (Feb. 15@9:00PM PST)
Asia.............Feb. 17 @2:00AM JST (UTC+09:00)
 

Ellef

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First fighting game i'll learn basically, thanks for cross platform play. Training mode and a 2% win rate are in my future for a while.
 

pakoito

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First fighting game i'll learn basically, thanks for cross platform play. Training mode and a 2% win rate are in my future for a while.
Hit me up on Steam, I have been playing for years but still suck and barely know the basics.
 

Archibald

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Lets be realistic, you (nor anyone else here) are not going to hit upper skill echelons so it doesn't really matter much what happens in esports section for us who just want to play around and have some fun.
 

Ellef

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I thought you were complaining the game was becoming casualised, with the skill levels generally being lowered. +M

Everyone says combos are dead easy now, but i'm still struggling in training mode in the betas.
 

pakoito

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It doesn't really matter how many hours you put in the lab doing 20 hit combos, that training is for that rare case where in the middle of the match you get a chance for a dial-a-combo drill, which is almost never. Do something that's simple and efficient, your B&Bs.

See desk's case, he's the best comboer around and cannot pass first round in a given tournament.
 

HotSnack

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There's going to be a huge influx of beginner players for the first few months. Use that chance to learn the game with people of similar skill levels.

Edit: Oh yeah, send me a PM if anyone wants to add me on steam. I'm UK based so keep that in mind for connection stuffs. I'm also willing to help out anyone who wanna learn how to play (I'd consider myself in the low-mid intermediate skill, level wise).
 

Ellef

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Do something that's simple and efficient, your B&Bs.

These are the ones i'm dropping :negative: i'm not too bothered, it'll take time and i'm not the most twitchy or reflexive, games like DOTA give me a headache.
 

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