Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Stellaris - Paradox new sci-fi grand strategy game

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by Perkel, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. Space Satan Arcane

    Space Satan
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    Hello and welcome to another Stellaris dev diary. As we are still in full post-release support mode, until we are ready to get back to regular feature dev diaries, we're not going to have full-length dev diaries. Instead, we'll use the dev diaries to highlight certain fixes or tweaks that we feel need highlighting. Today, we're going to be covering some changes coming to the 2.0.2 beta in regards to War Exhaustion and forced Status Quo.

    In 2.0, with the new war system, we added forced status quo peace as part of the new war exhaustion mechanics. We felt that this mechanic was necessary to ensure that limited wars could actually happen and so that the outmatched side in a war still had a reason to fight (pushing the enemy into 100% war exhaustion in order to force peace and reduce their territorial concessions). There were some problems with this mechanic, however, primarily that people felt surprised by a sudden peace in which they might lose systems the enemy has just occupied days ago, and also that certain wars (such as subjugation wars) were very difficult to fully win before being force-peaced out.

    After receiving intial player feedback on these issues, we decided to try out a different model of war exhaustion in the 2.0.2 beta, replacing the forced status quo with a penalty at 100% war exhaustion. We have since been playing, testing, tweaking and collecting further feedback, and coming to the conclusion that our original design was correct - forced peace is necessary for the new war system to not simply become a series of single wars to the death, or powerful empires forcing a weaker empire into 100% war exhaustion and refusing to peace while their enemies were crippled by penalties.

    For this reason, we will be reintroducing forced status quo peace, and this time it's here to stay. However, we are not simply going to roll back to exactly the way it is in 2.0, instead it will now work as follows:
    - When a side in a war reaches 100% war exhaustion, they are now flagged as being at high war exhaustion, and get the alert as before
    - Once at high war exhaustion, a 24 month timer will start to tick down for that side in the war. Once the timer is up, that war side can be forced into a status quo peace
    - There will be no penalties for war exhaustion, but we will leave in the functionality for modders, as well as the ability to change the number of months before a forced peace is possible or disable forced peace altogether, so that those who truly hate to the idea of ever being forced to peace can at least change it through modding

    These changes should mean that a status quo peace is something that doesn't come as a sudden surprise, and give the player time to start winding down their war and retake occupied systems when that war exhaustion counter ticks over into 100%.

    We are also going to look into the possibility of changing Subjugation and Forced Ideology wars to either provide a clearer path to win such a war when the enemy has allies defending them, or by allowing Status Quo in such a war to achieve a 'limited victory' (liberating/subjugating part of the enemy empire instead of the whole).

    These changes will not be in the very next version of 2.0.2 (as that is already being internally tested and will hopefully be with you before the end of the week), but we expect to roll them out sometime next week if all goes well.

    That's all for today! See you next week for another 2.0 post-release dev diary.
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. MadMaxHellfire Magister

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    war exhaustion should be able to also click back: if my empire is in a war and it keeps winning i want it to keep winning more and more, fuck my enemies, as long as i'm winning i'm willing to stay in war forever. an enemy planet with 10 billions enemies has just been bombed to oblivion and skyrim? next round is on me! the winning side has no interest ever to end a war until it has everything it wants. make wars expensive, make ships cost 10 times upkeep as soon as they leave the docks (but give me system defenses, like that awesome mod did)(on a slightly related note, simple outposts should have a free slot where you could fit a nav beacon for faster stl travel, more system defense ships or a minefield. a minefield should be the equivalent of eu's burn land, but permanent).

    also i've always hated the forced war conclusions: many times in europa universalis, knowing i couldn't destroy this enemy world power in a single war, i kept its regions occupied which stops its economy, cripples its expansion and sometimes lowers its stability, which is the worst damage possible. given the chance, i want and i must be allowed to curbstomp my enemy. war is hell.
    i'm fine with revolts, give me +100, maybe even +200 unrest to non-militaristic pops (after all it's so unbelievably easy to manage...), when i reach 100 exhaustion, i'll drown them in blood, but don't force me stuff i don't want to. it's idiotic.

    this makes me angry, stellaris needs only very small touches to be awesome, but they never came in the name of... of what? not even balance. i'm puzzled.
     
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  3. Sranchammer Arcane

    Sranchammer
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    Shouldn't war exhaustion trigger major rebellions? That sounds more challenging.
     
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  4. MadMaxHellfire Magister

    MadMaxHellfire
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    it should, but it actually doesn't.
    on the other hand, overextension in europa universalis does, but it shouldn't. i mean, the nation i belong just conquered a whole new continent, why the hell should i be upset?
     
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  5. Space Satan Arcane

    Space Satan
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    Hivemind rebellion? Spiritualist rebellion, for a war, promised by their gods? Militarist rebellions? For showing weakness? Robot rebellions?
     
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  6. MadMaxHellfire Magister

    MadMaxHellfire
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    hivemind rebellion: the war effort weakens the bond, drones wander off and without the guidance become violent.
    spiritualist: we aren't winning as promised/prophetized! we're doomed! you brought us in an unwinnable war! i'll kill you!
    militarist: you're not worthy of command. time for a coup.
    robot: to focus on repairing losses, less maintenance means more faulty robots.

    what were you saying?
    and anyway, some traits could give immunity to rebellions, just add a hidden +1000 unrest and you're set.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2018
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  7. Make America Great Again baturinsky Arcane

    baturinsky
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    Lanes-only makes defensive stations viable.
     
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  8. LizardWizard Savant

    LizardWizard
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    The beta patch added an event that makes your psi Chose One God-Empress(or) if you're government isn't imperial. This can be pretty strong as the event shifts ethics towards Authoritarian, changes civics to Philosopher King/Imperial Cult/Aristo Elite (get the third civic even if you haven't researched the appropriate tech). Which was amazing for my current game as it replaced life seeded (which is useless after early game). My God-Emprah has 10% Unity/Science gain and reduced Corvette/Mining station cost which is perfect since Pirates are annoying as shit and Torpedo boats beat everything.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  9. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
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    I think I've figured out ideological problem with Stellaris. They've embraced familiar mechanics from EU4 and made the game even more, so to say, granular: your ships really fly through all this space, you capture each system individually. There's less random stuff here, you don't get to colonize a planet that will add 5 rich systems to your empire. Space becomes more systemic and thus boring. By the dreaded midgame you have uniform blobs bumping into each other. Some blobs may be bigger, some smaller; some have a lot connections to each others, some don't. And when you have 70 systems you don't see other empire special systems as special. Someone mentioned craving enemy's black hole system for physics research. But why would you if an empty space on any of your planet with any POP on it will produce more research? There's nothing special when everything is so big. I fought wars to get systems with enclaves and access to Leviathans (both added in DLC) but even that doesn't help that much; some of your inner factions become happier. Strategic resources are roughly equivalent to being one step in research ahead and you get plenty of those. Getting new planets and species is hard to notice, that unrest doesn't really affect you. You may use new species to colonize more but your 21st planet is not that exciting anymore and requires too much involvement to get your empire's productivity raised by 4% or something.

    So the ideological problem is this: Stellaris doesn't have midgame. It only has endgame. First there's initial stage: you note how starlanes go, you settle first colonies and really get into managing them, you throw pops around, you manage resources. But then immideately comes the endgame. There's no grand battle for deciding the fate of the universe, it's all feels determined when it happens. It feels like mopping up. You already have most of interesting inventions and traditions you really wanted; now you get whatever is presented to you. It's like Civilization after turn 400 when everything is decided and you just have to click end turn to get your spaceship to fly - only you'll have to do it for most of the game and you might not even win. You research future tech and mop around, you fight wars where 90% of the action is capturing systems of an enemy with 0 ships and you still have to manage armies to capture planets. Unlike Endless Space 2 there's species-wide story but... We're all psionics, we took 2 ascension perks for that. Wow, our researches now produce whole 10% more of science and admirals have another 10% bonus - that's a whole new game!.. Really nothing feels like a significant change. Even your relationships with resources are the same - even after 250 years of play you will struggle with energy balance and will be able to use any amount of minerals in a day. It switches from the early game wonder to late game clicking through turns while most 4X like Civilization have a middle game where everything is actually decided, when it's fun to play. Meanwhile in something like Endless Space 2 the game evolves; by the endgame the way of interacting with most mechanics completely changes, you stop caring about one type of resources at all while you need some others and they seem worthy of a galactic-scale war.

    But Stellaris is balanced even though it's random. All the unique anomalies and special resources are within strategic sane boundaries. They're all there to allow you to balance things out, see if you rather want +5% food or +10% speed of energy weapons. It's granular and lifeless. You will never see enemy hold system that you have to fight for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  10. whatevername Prophet

    whatevername
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    The ideological problem with Stellaris is: their boss said "Lets make a game for gullible retards that play Call of Duty so we could shovel dem dolla bills. Use this rat maze simulator and change rat graphics to spaceships."
     
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  11. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarne for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    Or defensive line, or ambush (or given this context, a TRAP!).

    Restriction of maneuver paradoxically is necessary for the importance of maneuver.
     
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  12. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    Ahoy thar, Vaarna. Why aren't you showing up to queue your mandogrind?
     
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  13. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
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    I do believe Wiz tries to make a perfect strategy game.

    But as often happens the most fun parts of a strategy games are directly connected to broken unbalanced stuff. Heroes 3 is one of the most beloved strategy games ever and is still played today even though everyone realizes that the balance is non-existant. With 2.0 Stellaris really got a lot of "fixes". Even if AI didn't catch up new rules will make it much easier for AI to play. They've modified rules so that at every point there're fewer choices, but none of them are totally dumb. For human it's easy to see that you shouldn't just go and colonize a planet in the middle of nowhere that you couldn't even defend. But still sometimes human may think that maybe I'll get it because it's gaia and has special resources and no one will attack there. AI has problems with those subtle calculations so now you can only capture systems nearby. Now it's almost impossible to expand like an idiot. Same with many other aspects of game.

    Same was very much true for EU4 and CK2. Stellaris was inuque in that the game allowed you to screw yourself up much more than in EU4/CK2. Now you can't.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2018
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  14. MadMaxHellfire Magister

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    are you saying that they took fun away attempting to give me some fun?
     
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  15. Jason Liang Cipher

    Jason Liang
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    The problem with Stellaris is the tech tree.
     
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  16. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
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    They wanted to give you a better strategy game.

    For details see how RTS were murdered by devs listening only to hardcore players and developing overcomplicated mess of a game made for multiplayer with no proper campaign.
     
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  17. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    More like trying to take your money without doing any work. Most of their work could be done in days by modders,while their full dev team is doing it for months.
     
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  18. Make America Great Again Average Manatee Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
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    wat

    RTS was murdered by devs listening to their focus groups telling them that controlling more than 1 unit at a time was too complex. And their focus groups were right, hence ASSFAGGOTS.
     
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  19. Alfgart Augur Patron

    Alfgart
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    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Blizzard and Warcraft 3 killed the RTS genre
     
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  20. Nirvash Learned

    Nirvash
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    Base build rts are just a niche, no market for modern big budget games. (and stuff like assfaggots cover most of the rts gameplay, traditional base building suck ass)

    Is just more bandaid for a crap ai in a broken system.
     
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  21. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    Why? Shitty rts games killed the genre,not a success of one game. Don't get me wrong Warcraft 3 is shit.
     
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  22. Jenkem Savant Patron

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    are the expansions good
     
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  23. ThisNameIsFree Learned

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    Yeah, robots expansion awesome. 90% of gameplay is queuing fucking robots pops since they need to be built manually. Also it's pretty much the only thing you can do, since apparently robots worse than bio races at everything (even at mining), so outbreeding is your only option.
     
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  24. ilitarist Learned Illiterate Village Idiot

    ilitarist
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    I think Leviathans is almost required, in a good way.

    It makes space more lived in. Enclaves are very nice to have in your borders and protect - you can interact with them even if they're outside of your borders but it's a little harder, plus some of your factions like having them. Giant monsters and other curiosities in space create interesting situations like the link between you and other empire is guarded by Dimensional Horror. Without that expansion space is much more boring. They create special nodes worth fighting for; I feel otherwise the space is mostly even and in wars your blob just consumes other blob; capturing enemy Enclave or special system with Infinity Machine or something is the best analogue of capturing enemy trade center or strait province in EU4.

    As for the others... Utopia adds some starting options and gives 3 ways of ascension (psionics, bioengineering and androidization) which are all not as interesting as they sound. And the bonuses you get from them feel boring. It also adds megastructures but those are vanity projects, you build big research center that gives +250 of all research... And costs 100 000 minerals and 100 energy upkeep and 300 influence. Ah, there are also habitats which are relatively powerful as they allow you to have much more pops in your empire - they won't be as productive as pops on planets but still good. Though don't think it allows for tall play; it gives your end-game empire that is already half of the galaxy an opportunity to get even more planets.

    I didn't get Synthetic Dawn but as I understand it mostly gives you additional starting options as well as lets meeting synthetic empires. With Utopia you can eventually become a synthetic empire anyway but AI is hesitant to do this. Adds to replayability, I guess. Good kind of expansions, you get it when you want more of the game and you don't lose anything by not having it.

    Apocalypse adds bigger ships, planetary destruction/conversion/robotization weapons and Space Mongols. Space Mongols are kinda like Fallen Empires but pirates, you can pay them to raid other guys, they can get special event making them rabid. Other stuff is well, ok, you may have bigger ships. Also some new starting options. Same as Synthetic Dawn, get it when you like the game and want more of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2018
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  25. I'm With Her Vaarna_Aarne for prison Notorious Internet Vandal Patron

    Vaarna_Aarne
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    There's actually one major advantage that robots have, which is that they can have the best leaders who can not only have extremely high skill cap (provided you reach it without hitting the level-lock trait they can get) but will also live forever unless killed by random event. But yea, robots are pretty badly shafted by not multiplying like rabbits.

    Because at the moment my ability to show up online at all is rather limited due to stuff, so I simply couldn't cover the mandogrind even if I tried. Within the entire time limit of the event, I could do just 9 runs at best in total.
     
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