[deleted]

[The Game Analists]

[deleted]

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I heard some stuff like piloting gets ridiculously harder at higher levels. That true?

 

[Silva]

I like sci-fi

- Spells cap at

If this is sci-fi, I'm Santa Claus.

 

[nikolokolus]

Sounds like fantasy with just the thinnest coat of sci-fi paint they could get away with?

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

[Spectacle]

If you're going to do Space Magic, I can appreciate it being actually called magic instead of "The Force", "Biotics" and similar bullshit.

 

[Alex]

Spelljammer has better rules and better setting.

 

[Alex]

Spelljammer has better rules and better setting.

Spelljammer is more inline with that bizarro shit that was popular in the 90's, but it's not a better setting or ruleset, (...snip)

I like 90s bizarro. It is fun and has soul, different from what I saw from Star Finder. No one is going to take a futuristic game with outright magic inside it seriously. Rather than trying to pretend the game is serious, it is a much better idea to take the silliness and revel in it.

 

[Morkar Left]

Doesn't sound bad. I'm not familiar with 5e rules but I guess they are somewhat similar to 3.5. From that point of view the rule adjustments sound good. Box seems to be packed with lots of stuff but I'm more the "all in my head" type of pen & pencil rpgs.

 

[Silva]

The contradiction comes from your opening phrase, see..

"I like sci-fi shit but I've not encountering any good sci-fi options laterly so.."

*SHOWS SOME FANTASY SHIT IN SPACE*

"..is pretty good."

Pretty good what? There is no Sci-fi here.

 

[nikolokolus]

Sounds like fantasy with just the thinnest coat of sci-fi paint they could get away with?

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

So like Star Wars(le force is magic!!), Mass Effect(mass effect, I dunno it gives you telepathy and lets you warp across the galaxy in seconds n shit), which is, well, I mean....

Yeah, I don't really care for any of that shit either. Sci-fi to me is Vance's Gaean Reach novels, Traveller, Heinlein, etc.

Like I said though, whatever floats yet boat.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Sounds like fantasy with just the thinnest coat of sci-fi paint they could get away with?

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

So like Star Wars(le force is magic!!), Mass Effect(mass effect, I dunno it gives you telepathy and lets you warp across the galaxy in seconds n shit), which is, well, I mean....

Yeah, I don't really care for any of that shit either. Sci-fi to me is Vance's Gaean Reach novels, Traveller, Heinlein, etc.

Like I said though, whatever floats yet boat.

Shit, maybe once we're done with the pbp game we oughta try a game set in the Oikumene.

 

[nikolokolus]

Sounds like fantasy with just the thinnest coat of sci-fi paint they could get away with?

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

So like Star Wars(le force is magic!!), Mass Effect(mass effect, I dunno it gives you telepathy and lets you warp across the galaxy in seconds n shit), which is, well, I mean....

Yeah, I don't really care for any of that shit either. Sci-fi to me is Vance's Gaean Reach novels, Traveller, Heinlein, etc.

Like I said though, whatever floats yet boat.

Shit, maybe once we're done with the pbp game we oughta try a game set in the Oikumene.

I'm game. There's even a pretty good BRP system called M-Space that would have very similar mechanics to Magic World.

 

[deuxhero]

Mechanically it's shit. Somehow it managed to take all of PF's problems and make them even worse. It keeps Pathfinder's most hated part of wealth by level and indeed makes it worse: At least in PF you could pretend WBL wasn't needed, even if it horribly unbalanced your game, SF outright makes it so you flat out can't hurt more powerful things if your weapon isn't high enough tier.

Stats generation is terrible. There's no scaling point buy cost and no ability to reduce ability scores to spend elsewhere. This creates a situation where there's only a few spreads worth bothering with for any build you ever wanted to make. No more do you consider if an extra HP, +1 to fort save, +1 to initiative, +1 to AC, +1 to a bunch of skills is worth a few less spells, one less on spell DCs and one less skill because shifting points away from your main stat is now just +1 to stuff you don't care about as much, -1 to stuff you have to do. Also the increases at level up math is broken so a higher, but odd, score is worth less than a 1 lower, but even, score.

 

[lightbane]

hat fun, adventurous tone is missing from a lot of Sci-fi themed RPGs and after three straight years of reading every ruleset I could find,

Have you tried Remnants? A post-apoc sci-fi pnp about giant robots and mad-max style stuff. Granted, it's indie and hard to find and naturally has not starship stuff. There was also another indie game called Legion something that was a starship troopers-style pnp.

 

[FritzedProcess]

I bought it because I'm looking forward to another setting book that will use its system. I haven't read much of it but I'm unimpressed (which is better than "disappointed"), and there's Paizo's "diversity" all over it.

Cyberpunk 2020 with Deep Space is where it's at (in spite of Interlock).

If you want another sci-fi RPG that is somewhat different, give Fragged Empire a try, with a caveat: it's very oriented towards crunchy tactical combat with a map and square or hex grid, to the point that using the alternative "cinematic" rules takes a lot of charm out of it.

 

[Silva]

Cyberpunk 2020 with Deep Space is where it's at (in spite of Interlock)

Now we're talking. Add Interface Zero, The Sprawl and SLA Industries to the list.

 

[fast]

My group and I played a few games of Starfinder. It was fun, but we definitely played outside the rules fairly often; I had to make sweeping house rules (mostly based on our experience in Pathfinder).

My main gripes with the system:

• Weapon tiers. Why not just make a weapon, and then add attachments and ammo that changes the damage? Tiering them seems so gamey to me.
• Non PC combatants don't bleed out like in Pathfinder. They just die. Kills a lot of the drama.
• No hit dice- you just simply 'get' HP (and SP) each level. This is more personal. My group and I were kind of bummed that we didn't have the chance to ROYALLY FUCK OVER our level-up anymore. (massochists)
• The starship system is hilariously underpolished. Do you know how to upgrade your ship? if your party's APL increases, you can magically draw ship parts out of Hammerspace and weld 'em on. no checks, no money needed. I took the bull by the horns and adhoc rewrote the rules for starship building, and gave the party an enormous amount of credits so that they could pay for it- but that fucked the balance even more.

I feel like once a few more sourcebooks are out SF might have the potential to match Pathfinder in terms of balance and crunch- but as is it feels like watered down Pathfinder-in-Space, which is close to what it was meant to be. Mission accomplished?

I wish my group could get into a more lore-heavy system because I'd love to GM Traveler, which sort of kicks the shit out of Starfinder.

 

[FritzedProcess]

Now we're talking. Add Interface Zero, The Sprawl and SLA Industries to the list.

I bought Starfinder for Interface Zero: Pathfinder Edition, which got a Starfinder conversion. IZ 2.0 for Savage Worlds is one of the best cyberpunk settings out there.

 

[deuxhero]

• The starship system is hilariously underpolished. Do you know how to upgrade your ship? if your party's APL increases, you can magically draw ship parts out of Hammerspace and weld 'em on. no checks, no money needed. I took the bull by the horns and adhoc rewrote the rules for starship building, and gave the party an enormous amount of credits so that they could pay for it- but that fucked the balance even more.

In Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition the game didn't even need to scale ships too much, your party skills (which scaled by level) determined AC (pilot's ability to dodge), to hit (gunner's ability to hit), damage (Saga gives higher level characters higher damage. Hardly anymore absurd than higher level characters being more accurate.), and ability to regenerate shields (mechanics check). Indeed the core rulebook explicitly states you can make enemy vehicles harder (or easier) by giving them a more skilled crew over throwing more enemies at the players or giving them more advanced vehicles. Even then you could pay for better shields, weapons and other systems as of the second book, which avoids competing with ground combat resources because you don't need money to be effective in ground combat in that system.

Starfinder's rules failed because they started with a shit base instead of the best D20 game.

 

[fast]

• The starship system is hilariously underpolished. Do you know how to upgrade your ship? if your party's APL increases, you can magically draw ship parts out of Hammerspace and weld 'em on. no checks, no money needed. I took the bull by the horns and adhoc rewrote the rules for starship building, and gave the party an enormous amount of credits so that they could pay for it- but that fucked the balance even more.

In Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition the game didn't even need to scale ships too much, your party skills (which scaled by level) determined AC (pilot's ability to dodge), to hit (gunner's ability to hit), damage (Saga gives higher level characters higher damage. Hardly anymore absurd than higher level characters being more accurate.), and ability to regenerate shields (mechanics check). Indeed the core rulebook explicitly states you can make enemy vehicles harder (or easier) by giving them a more skilled crew over throwing more enemies at the players or giving them more advanced vehicles. Even then you could pay for better shields, weapons and other systems as of the second book, which avoids competing with ground combat resources because you don't need money to be effective in ground combat in that system.

Starfinder's rules failed because they started with a shit base instead of the best D20 game.

first off, you aren't referring to Star Wars D20, are you? I played a couple one-shots in that system and I found it comparable in efficiency and game feel to D&D 3.5 (A good thing, imo)

don't know enough to comment on whether or not it's the best D20 game. That's a pretty subjective thing to say, especially when there are so many ttgs out there under the D20 moniker- The "quality" of a ttg system really depends on your and your group's play style, outside of organized play.

I have had a lot of success with Pathfinder. over the years, we've modified the rules a lot but I think that the core game is very serviceable and in no way "shit."

Starfinder's modifications of the base are pretty shit, imo. Felt like the core rulebook needed a rewrite or three.

 

[FritzedProcess]

first off, you aren't referring to Star Wars D20, are you? I played a couple one-shots in that system and I found it comparable in efficiency and game feel to D&D 3.5 (A good thing, imo)

don't know enough to comment on whether or not it's the best D20 game. That's a pretty subjective thing to say, especially when there are so many ttgs out there under the D20 moniker- The "quality" of a ttg system really depends on your and your group's play style, outside of organized play.

I have had a lot of success with Pathfinder. over the years, we've modified the rules a lot but I think that the core game is very serviceable and in no way "shit."

Starfinder's modifications of the base are pretty shit, imo. Felt like the core rulebook needed a rewrite or three.

Having played a 7-year long campaign using the Star Wars D20 system (which by the end of the campaign had been overhauled into a points-based D20 classless game), I can tell you it's the best of all D20 system games. It does away with the tedious combat (especially on high levels) in a very elegant way, with the way hitpoints are handled. It still suffers from a problem of scale (stats progression should be arithmetic, but the raw difference between 12 strength and 20 strength is relatively small, meaning that a wimp could win an arm wrestling competition against Arnold Schwarzenegger by random chance rather easily) but that goes hand in hand with the D20 system.

Then there's the bullshit about a few points in a skill being useless, and the system being very combat-centric and the skills being a bit of an aftertought, but I chalk that up in part to GM scaling, and the latter bit to D&D 3, which still was an improvement over AD&D.

I haven't had the time to read Starfinder yet, but if it lives up to its parentage, I expect a burdensome bunch of rules.

 

[deuxhero]

first off, you aren't referring to Star Wars D20, are you? I played a couple one-shots in that system and I found it comparable in efficiency and game feel to D&D 3.5 (A good thing, imo)

There's two Star Wars d20 systems, the first and Saga Edition. The most obvious difference between the two if you only played oneshots is that d20 used vitality (level based) and wounds (equal to con) and it's poorly balanced so everyone is stupidly fragile. Saga Edition uses HP and a "condition track" which is goes down under various conditions (take large amounts of damage at once or hit by enemies with special abilities devoted to lowering the condition track) and inflicts increasing penalties as you go down (-1 to lots of stuff, -2 to lots of stuff, -5 to lots of stuff, -10 to lots of stuff, KO)

The real big difference is in character generation. In SE there are only 5 class, Soldier, Scout, Scoundrel, Noble, and Jedi (well technically there's "beast" and "non-heroic" but they're racial hit die and the NPC class) and the only fixed abilities they have are the HP per level, class skills, BAB, save bonus and proficiencies (plus if they start with full money or a lightsaber). At every odd level each class gives a talent, essentially a class ability you pick from a list of options (armor doesn't reduce your speed, enemies have to attack you, enemies hit by autofire take penalties), while even levels give a bonus feat.

Having played a 7-year long campaign using the Star Wars D20 system (which by the end of the campaign had been overhauled into a points-based D20 classless game), I can tell you it's the best of all D20 system games. It does away with the tedious combat (especially on high levels) in a very elegant way, with the way hitpoints are handled. It still suffers from a problem of scale (stats progression should be arithmetic, but the raw difference between 12 strength and 20 strength is relatively small, meaning that a wimp could win an arm wrestling competition against Arnold Schwarzenegger by random chance rather easily) but that goes hand in hand with the D20 system.

Then there's the bullshit about a few points in a skill being useless, and the system being very combat-centric and the skills being a bit of an aftertought, but I chalk that up in part to GM scaling, and the latter bit to D&D 3, which still was an improvement over AD&D.

From your comment on skills you played the "original" d20. Saga Edition actually fixed this by making characters trained or untrained (or trained with skill focus feat). One on one contests of skill in it are supposed to be best of multiple skill, which mitigates the arm wrestling problem (for example a holochess match in one adventure requires you to win enough checks based on deception, tactics, initiative, and perception before you make 6 rolls) for everything except arm wrestling (which really should just be a raw strength comparison and should only be a roll if someone trained in grappling is against a stronger but untrained foe or it's a tie)

 

[fast]

-snip-

Pathfinder Unchained (Pathfinder Source book with quite a few alternative rules and classes) had a system very similar to the 'condition track' that SE has, but it wasn't very well integrated into the main ruleset (a common issue across all of Pathfinder Unchained).

the main issue with Pathfinder is that it was tied to 3.5 with a very short leash. By the time they started to play around with lengthening that leash, the writer's A-team had already been moved to Starfinder. Many of the PU rules are clearly beta SF rules, as a possible result.

I should try out SWSE. from what you've described, it certainly seems worth a play.

 

[deuxhero]

fast
If you actually intend to run it (or have it run), aside from the official books and web articles (which include a 1-20 adventure called Dawn of Defiance, errata, smaller adventure Iridonian Darkness, one shot 25 to Rescue, and a bunch of stuff that you can find compiled into a single PDF called Web Articles.) make sure to find DMFs Big List of SWSE NPCS (big list of prebuilt statsblocks to throw at the players). There's also a pair of powerpoint indexes that lists what books you find everything in.

if you wanted more modules, the various free adventures for the first d20 system that were previously on WotC's website and the Living Force modules are relatively easy to convert to SE (Pretty much just replace all enemies with NPCs of the same CL and theme.). There's also a Saga conversion of the classic d6 adventure Tatooine Manhunt floating around out there.