Incline Starcraft 2: Heart of the Swarm

[Kane]

At least enough to make him think twice. In SC2, as Borelli says, I'm just seeing that and laughing as it all dies before my units - or wondering why I wasted the effort as I watch defenses crumble in quite literally, seconds.

The game was deliberately made that way because it's more interesting to the viewer. Blizzard wants the game to be decided at any moment.

It's not more exciting for the viewer. A 2 second engagement sucks compared to a 20 second one.

It matters little what you think, Blizzard has decided that this is best. You are talking about a game that isn't SC2, so you should look elsewhere.

What is that? Noone else makes RTS anymore? Well shit, you just lost.

 

[Malakal]

Only that engagements dont last 2 seconds. The whole positioning manoeuvres and "dance" can take several minutes when players try to catch each other out of position and to get good opportunities to attack. Even the fighting phase takes longer with stutter micro movements and stuff like that. Granted it is quite fast, but as I said I dont mind.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Finally played some games online! Seems I can't do the match-making thing and have to content myself with "Custom Games" of which there mostly are none.

First match was a 1 vs 1 where I got owned by the Reaper Rush. Didn't even realise I was being attacked because I didn't notice the cutesy "being attacked" and the sounds seem to lack... the notice that SC1 had? Anyway, me being dumb and wondering why my SCV's were dying and... oh... right.

Second match was a 2 vs 2 where the game can be summed up as: Build Battleships = Win. My ally tried the odd nuclear strike against the Zerg's massed army which softened them up. Then my Battleships just walked all over it (mostly ground units anyway).

Enjoyed it. Thinking about buying it but yeah - not the same as SC1. In SC1 mass Battleships took a while and you could defeat Battleships reasonably well with enough goliaths / marines. Here they just walk all over everything a little bit more than I remember. People didn't do much in the way of base defense (the old days of "walls of proton canons" seem gone) and so the meagre defenses there were I walked all over. Mind you this is a "default" SC2 map and the really fun games in SC were the custom "unlimited resources" maps where everyone would turtle up.

Still very much "our lump of units met their lump of units", and their side overwhelmingly died - much more so than I recall SC1 being. In SC1 all of theirs vs all of yours usually fucked both sides up. Still, early days.

Jesus christ DU you are so fucking retarded. Battleshits are utter shite, the only reason it could possibly win is if you are a noob. Which you are.

Which is OK of course, but the problem is when you write stuff like "Here they just walk all over everything" and use your completely, hilariously wrong opinions as basis for your judgement. Jesus christ.

For the record, battlecruisers are owned by vikings, corruptors, void rays, tempests, hydras, and usually just fucking marines are enough to murder them. Stalkers are probably quite good as well, though you almost never see BCs so it's hard to say...

To be honest I think the problem here is that you compare SC2 vs your glorified image of SC1, which you probably played at a significantly younger and more impressionable age.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Jesus christ DU you are so fucking retarded. Battleshits are utter shite, the only reason it could possibly win is if you are a noob. Which you are.

Which is OK of course, but the problem is when you write stuff like "Here they just walk all over everything" and use your completely, hilariously wrong opinions as basis for your judgement. Jesus christ.

I'm not denying the noobishness of how I'm playing right now. Hell, I don't really know enough about each of the new units or even know what units the enemy is actually fielding yet (I hate how it doesn't tell you like the original did, when you click on things?). But my 16 or so Battlecruisers did just walk all over everything. That may be the fault of the enemy, who's mass of Zerg units was mostly ground (hence me going air in the first place). But there wasn't really any concern on my part against what seemed to be the anti-air units he had. They met the enemy's mass of units and the enemy died. Normally though I wouldn't mass a single unit like that, and especially not Battlecruisers. Maybe it was just "the right strategy" for the other noobs I was playing with at the time.

But yeah, they did just "walk all over everything" in the game I played. And normally a Zerg has a tonne of Hydralisks to get through as their base unit, so I was surprised at that. And even more surprised he couldn't build anti-air units and take them out later. I didn't repair them and I barely re-inforced them (and I didn't pull back to re-group). Again, that could be his noobishness but I'm noting the difference between this and SC1.

For the record, battlecruisers are owned by vikings, corruptors, void rays, tempests, hydras, and usually just fucking marines are enough to murder them.

Well I guess my Zerg's Terran ally just didn't have enough marines then.

To be honest I think the problem here is that you compare SC2 vs your glorified image of SC1, which you probably played at a significantly younger and more impressionable age.

I'm not sure how you could say my image of SC1 is "glorified" considering SC2 is basically the same game. Blizzard just took 12 years to update the graphics and tweaked a few units. EG: Goliaths are now called Thors, cost more and do more damage. The original Terran air scout was replaced with two separate units. Battlecruisers were beefed it seems.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

I'm not sure how you could say my image of SC1 is "glorified" considering SC2 is basically the same game.

First: noting the difference between this and SC1
Then: Says its the same
last: huehuehuehuu

 

[Ulminati]

Zerg don't really build hydralisks anymore. It's mostly zergling/mutalisk or some sort of baneling bust with the odd roach here and there.

 

[Malakal]

Zerg don't really build hydralisks anymore. It's mostly zergling/mutalisk or some sort of baneling bust with the odd roach here and there.

Roach Hydra is one of the most common builds actually. Zergling Baneling Muta too ofc.

 

[zerotol]

Zerg don't really build hydralisks anymore. It's mostly zergling/mutalisk or some sort of baneling bust with the odd roach here and there.

Roach Hydra is one of the most common builds actually. Zergling Baneling Muta too ofc.

Thats because its great vs gateway all ins. Its also pretty good against a delayed immortal all-in although zergling hydra is better of course.

My ZvP is so terrible atm

lol@DU btw clueless

 

[Ulminati]

I can't recall the last time I saw hydras in play vs Terrans. Then again, I don't watch much SC2 anymore.

 

[Raghar]

Zerg don't really build hydralisks anymore. It's mostly zergling/mutalisk or some sort of baneling bust with the odd roach here and there.

Can they survive flamethrowers without hydralisks?

 

[Ulminati]

Muta.

 

[Johannes]

Only that engagements dont last 2 seconds. The whole positioning manoeuvres and "dance" can take several minutes when players try to catch each other out of position and to get good opportunities to attack. Even the fighting phase takes longer with stutter micro movements and stuff like that. Granted it is quite fast, but as I said I dont mind.

Moving around the map is not an engagement. Sure, the 2 seconds is hyperbole if you didnt figure that out by yourself, but regardless - are you actually trying to argue that battles making up a smaller portion of the game is more exciting for the average viewer? Or are you just stating foregone conclusions, and pointing out that you don't mind bad design?

 

[Malakal]

Only that engagements dont last 2 seconds. The whole positioning manoeuvres and "dance" can take several minutes when players try to catch each other out of position and to get good opportunities to attack. Even the fighting phase takes longer with stutter micro movements and stuff like that. Granted it is quite fast, but as I said I dont mind.

Moving around the map is not an engagement. Sure, the 2 seconds is hyperbole if you didnt figure that out by yourself, but regardless - are you actually trying to argue that battles making up a smaller portion of the game is more exciting for the average viewer? Or are you just stating foregone conclusions, and pointing out that you don't mind bad design?

No I am saying time after time again and again that a single battle is not decisive until both sides are at 200 supply and not always then AND that you see a lot of battles in a average higher level game.

Also units dont have very high damage to health ratio its just that they clump more now and splash is more effective - thus microing them is often all about good splits.

 

[pan]

Also units dont have very high damage to health ratio

Yes they do, banelings, hydra, marine, collossus and high templar all do crazy high DPS, are frail to boot, and are extensively used. The clumping increases the speed of battles too, but not only for the reason you suggest. The pathfinding/clumping allows individual units to engage in a battle very quickly, so, where in Brood War you would find units stumbling into range over a broad area, in SC2 they're able to close in and begin attacking almost immediately.

you see a lot of battles in a average higher level game.

Once again, it depends on your definition of 'high level'. Of course in the games that Husky casts you will see lots of battles, partially because the players he casts are sloppy but also because he specifically selects such games. The recent Gom games I've watched consistently played out differently, with perhaps a couple of skirmishes or harassments occurring, but the overall game being decided largely based on the first major confrontation, perhaps with a few death throes afterwards whilst the dust settles.

 

[Malakal]

Also units dont have very high damage to health ratio

Yes they do, banelings, hydra, marine, collossus and high templar all do crazy high DPS, are frail to boot, and are extensively used. The clumping increases the speed of battles too, but not only for the reason you suggest. The pathfinding/clumping allows individual units to engage in a battle very quickly, so, where in Brood War you would find units stumbling into range over a broad area, in SC2 they're able to close in and begin attacking almost immediately.

"Mine" units are unique in this regard, true, but hydras are not really widely used. Marines? Isnt it 45hp to 6 dmg? Hardly high compared to zegling. Collosus is 15x2 with 350 total hp/shields only aoe saves him. HT are the same as they were. Better pathfinding is a factor of course but I really hated how units behaved in SC1 so its a plus for me.

you see a lot of battles in a average higher level game.

Once again, it depends on your definition of 'high level'. Of course in the games that Husky casts you will see lots of battles, partially because the players he casts are sloppy but also because he specifically selects such games. The recent Gom games I've watched consistently played out differently, with perhaps a couple of skirmishes or harassments occurring, but the overall game being decided largely based on the first major confrontation, perhaps with a few death throes afterwards whilst the dust settles.[/quote]

I do watch a lot of Husky games but also streams from leagues and tournaments, both eastern and western. And as I wrote - in Korea players ff after losing several workers in a good harass or when the games goes in the favor of the enemy slightly, in the west people make amazing come backs even at half the worker count. Thus: extremely high level games dont allow for any mistakes, but normal high level games are more interesting and I base my opinions on them.

 

[Malakal]

I mean just look at this game I just watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyhQuwCxc_M

Beautiful non stop action with many major engagements, drops, harass, zerglings drive by etc. Dynamic as fuck. Units used: zergling, baneling, muta, roach, queen, marine , marauders, medivac, widow mines, siege tanks, viking. Not a battlecruiser in sight.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I'm not sure how you could say my image of SC1 is "glorified" considering SC2 is basically the same game.

First: noting the difference between this and SC1
Then: Says its the same
last: huehuehuehuu

Thank you for admitting that SC1 is indeed the better game. Massing Battleships in that, even against noobs, was never really smart.

Zerg don't really build hydralisks anymore. It's mostly zergling/mutalisk or some sort of baneling bust with the odd roach here and there.

Yeah, I'm learning that. The few games I've managed to play online, I'm seeing a lot of mass Zerg but seems they're ground units only. No idea what they're called (again, only demo version and clicking doesn't tell me) but it seems fairly common in the noobish levels. Was just walked all over by a guy who played Zerg and massed ground - leaving me with air units that were able to walk all over his base in return. We basically took each other out, then he resigned, then I don't know what happened but it seems I've just learned that the remaining players can take over allies bases when they leave.

And here you go guys, here's a Bronze League Heroes game for you. 1 hour, 30 minutes of me dying, re-building, dying again, re-building, only to be taken out in the end.

Love to hear what you think. I made the mistake of thinking I was written off early, only to end up dying to the enemy I *thought* had been destroyed.

Personally, I reckon I should've gone Battleships (and regret I didn't when I realised I had a chance at rebuilding around the 30 min mark). Vikings are piss weak against ground units in ground mode and having to get large quantities of them and couple them with Banshees was my pain. Still, learning slowly. The masses of ground zerg units kept coming in and taking me out. I kept trying different units to see what they'd do which was my main mistake, and didn't get enough mass.

Better pathfinding is a factor of course but I really hated how units behaved in SC1 so its a plus for me.

Actually, I do wonder how many of the losses in SC1's battles were due to the poor path-finding. Dragoons, Siege Tanks, Goliaths all running about like crazy drunken hobos. SC2 is definitely an improvement in that regard but I think defenses should've been buffed as a result. Attack + Click ground, move in and watch defenses crumble, where-as in the original you'd see shit dying because it was stupidly walking about and everything would queue up to move into an enemies base in single-file, rather than as one big clump.

And why, why, why did they remove the hold commands? Do units "hold" automatically when they stop? And wasn't there a "follow" command as well, or am I mis-remembering?

 

[Brotherman Bill]

There is a hold command, just press H (or was it S? Never remember)

 

[Berekän]

No idea what they're called (again, only demo version and clicking doesn't tell me) but it seems fairly common in the noobish levels.

IIRC, there should be a button in the options that reads something like "Can select units other than your own" that it's toggled off by default

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Battleships are clearly the superior strategy. Watch as I struggle valiantly to win against overwhelming numbers with my awesome battleships in this 4-player Free For All.

As you can see, it was a close match and I was vastly out-numbered. However my Battleships won the day! Thus proving beyond all doubt, that mass spamming Battleships == easy win mode.

I rest my case.








Yeah, I gotta buy the game and stop pwning noobs before I learn bad strategies.

No idea what they're called (again, only demo version and clicking doesn't tell me) but it seems fairly common in the noobish levels.

IIRC, there should be a button in the options that reads something like "Can select units other than your own" that it's toggled off by default

It's an option? Gonna have to try that shit out. Thanks!

 

[Overboard]

Battleships are clearly the superior strategy. Watch as I struggle valiantly to win against overwhelming numbers with my awesome battleships...

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Wow, so umm... I bought it. But did Starcraft II online die or what am I doing wrong?

I went match-making, FFA, Play...

Searching...

Searching...

Searching...​

There's nothing telling me how many players are online or how many are in queue waiting for a game, it doesn't tell me how long the average wait for a game is. Oh and the menu options bugged out at one point and were all disabled, had to re-log to correct it.

Managed to get a 2vs2 game in the end though which was hilarious... Everyone attacked everyone else and ignored their own bases being attacked. My ally's base was attacked, we just ignored it and pushed through walking all over their bases with our units. We took their entire bases out and came back to clean up his just as he managed to get on to my base. My one Starcraft complaint (and it existed in SC1 - only seemingly less so) is there really is no base defense. Either your units are home when you're attacked - in which case you'll likely to win, or they're not. Either way, you're going to lose buildings because buildings just DIE. It seems that in the future, everything is made out of Balsa Wood.

And... custom maps? What's the dealio with those? Hardly anyone seems to be making custom games and all the maps seem to be Blizzard stuff. What happened to the SC1 days of custom maps being all over the place and new maps popping up and everyone playing them? Seems to just be stuck with boring Blizzard default maps?

 

[Angthoron]

I think custom maps are in Arcade or some shit like that. Gotta hand it to Blizz, they managed to make the interface outside the matches be utter fucking shit, took me forever to find melee vs AI.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

The interface in HotS is still way better than how it used to be.

 

[flabbyjack]

SC2: Wings of Liberty Kerrigan = Cold-stone calculating ice bitch
SC2: Heart of the Swam Kerrigan = Busty bimbo
?

Wow, so umm... I bought it. But did Starcraft II online die or what am I doing wrong?

There's nothing telling me how many players are online or how many are in queue waiting for a game, it doesn't tell me how long the average wait for a game is. Oh and the menu options bugged out at one point and were all disabled, had to re-log to correct it.

Just gotta wait it out, brotato. If you mouse-over the top icon (In Wings of Liberty, anyway) it will tell you average wait is 2 minutes.

That UI shit is UNFURIATING, every time I join a party it kicks my race back to Terran. Took me a while to figure out why it was setting me to my least favorite race all the time.

Still no money map like BGH? Having to constantly expand is not fun, blizzard! If we had a BGH type map we'd see some really defensive players, since they know their base is guaranteed resources instead of short-time resources and a unit-production center.

Invariably, you will go on a losing streak due to the 'game match AI,' coupled with bad luck, hooking you up with a series of shitty teammates. At that point you will rage quit.