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starcraft 2 beta motherfuckers

Monocause

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You're on the beta? What's your nick?
 

Monocause

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Just tested a fun thing versus the roach rush. Of course, your mileage may vary, but noobs often use mass roaches thinking it's a win button.

Create some basic forces to prevent a ling rush. Then you scout, if you see a roach warren get two stargates and dish out two phoenixes + two void rays. Use the phoenix ability to kill the queen which - if the zerg went roaches - is the only AA you'll find there. Then you quickly cripple his economy while adding void rays. Watch out for him raiding your base with the roaches he had and prevent building a hydra lair or the spire.
The terrans can do the same with the viking/banshee combo, even better since they can wall-in easily and thus prevent an early raid.
 

Castanova

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Practiced some more Terran... worked out the 3-rax "rush" versus Zerg. Still my weakest race though even against the nub AI. Protoss is easily my favorite due to some of the things Monocause is mentioning. I wish I had a key!
 

a wild nigger

Educated
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Reject_666_6 said:
Is 'Sair/DT still a valid strategy against Zerg? You'd have to use Phoenixes instead of Corsairs, but the idea's the same.

Find it harder to pull of will Phoenix, plus DT is it's own structure (Dark Shrine) so you have to build another building (Templar Archives) to get HT's which makes it "flow" a little less than in SC1. Archons are, I feel, less powerful as well. Still possible, although you see Robotics for Immortal/Colossi (particularly since Zergs like to open Roach or feign opening Roach and Immortals are the hard counter. Colossi on the other hand just own, particularly hydra/ling armies) much more. Mostly I feel Templar Tech hasn't been figured out as much and doesn't get used as much because of the strength of Robo. The Phoenixes anti-gravity ability is great fun though.

What server are you on, Monocause? It's dumb since you can't play with people from Europe or Asia if you're North America, or any other way. I'm hoping this is only because this is the beta and it's the first time they're testing out Battle.net 2.0.
 

Monocause

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The EU server. Tried adding me as a friend? It's not possible at all? I hoped that while in ladder games you're restricted to your region you can play custom games with anyone you want.

@Reject_666_6:

'Sair/DT is no longer a valid strategy as the corsair is no more and I don't think there's a unit with a similar ability. The lack of a corsair means that the Protoss have trouble with Anti-Air - fortunately air units seem to be underused apart from the mandatory Terran Medivacs and the Zerg who *will* go muta after his initial roach strike if you give him the time.

The problem lies in the fact that I don't see a way for the 'toss to counter properly micro'ed muta strike. But again, if you've allowed the zerg to mass mutas, you're doing something wrong and the game is lost anyway.
 

a wild nigger

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Monocause said:
The EU server. Tried adding me as a friend? It's not possible at all? I hoped that while in ladder games you're restricted to your region you can play custom games with anyone you want.

@Reject_666_6:

'Sair/DT is no longer a valid strategy as the corsair is no more and I don't think there's a unit with a similar ability. The lack of a corsair means that the Protoss have trouble with AA - fortunately air units seem to be underused apart from the mandatory Terran Medivacs and the Zerg who *will* go muta after his initial roach strike if you give him the time.

No, can't add cross server friends for games unfortunately.

Phoenix can still handle Mutalisks and be used as a Sair replacement in PvZ, but they are slightly less effective against against Mutas since they have no splash. They do get the +5 extra damage per attack (2 attacks at once) so they can still hold their own though.

Brood Lords are annoying if Zerg happens to catch you lacking proper AA since they rape the shit out of basically any ground unit.
 

Monocause

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The Mothership coupled with some HT with psionic storm are a way to counter muta harrassment too. Use the vortex on the mutas, position HT's and spam psi storm the moment vortex is about to end. That's considering, however, that you've spent 400M 400VG for the mothership which is a big mistake sometimes.

While the Mothership is great on the defence with the vortex and the cloak, it is still lacking. It could be great in a 2v2 where you would cloak your zerg/terran allies, but in 1v1 it's not the best idea to use it. I'll post it in my feedback.
 

Monocause

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A question for you guys: what army do you have after about seven minutes, regardless of the race? Ie. how many roaches, how many M&Ms, how many zeals/stalkers?
 

MapMan

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I demand all people who have invites to abandon this thread. This is truly outrageous.
 

a wild nigger

Educated
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I usually find myself at about 50 population seven minutes in. Depends on the match-up and what I scout for unit composition.

Mostly I find myself with
PvZ - Zeal/Sentry/Immortal
PvT - Stalker/Sentry/Immortal
PvP - One of the above, sometimes going Phoenix first

I usually then transition into Colossi or HTs.

Haven't played as much T or Z, so not as sure for them. TvP I usually find myself with quite a few more marines than marauders, but I usually try to feign going lots of marauders so the P will go Immortals. Then add mostly marines and get ghosts for EMP since it decimates Protoss and basically negates the Immortals shields. Been going Ravens in the later game, they're pretty helpful.

For Zerg it seems like I'm always some combination of roach/ling/muta no matter the match-up, then transitioning to Brood Lords or Infestors depending on my position in the game.
 

kris

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Just came back from a vacation in the sun to see I was in the beta. I didn't even know I had ticked in that I was interested.

Tried two games as protoss. First I was narrowly defeated by a Zerg. Went dark templars and wroak havoc in his base, but he had mutalisks that I was ill prepared for. Second I played against a human that wasn't that good. He went for the helicopters and did some economic (but to late) damage, but I had plenty of stalkers this time. With a transport I moved them over to his base and he promtly quit. Pity he couldn't hold out longer.
 

kris

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Monocause said:
'Sair/DT is no longer a valid strategy as the corsair is no more and I don't think there's a unit with a similar ability. The lack of a corsair means that the Protoss have trouble with Anti-Air - fortunately air units seem to be underused apart from the mandatory Terran Medivacs and the Zerg who *will* go muta after his initial roach strike if you give him the time.

The problem lies in the fact that I don't see a way for the 'toss to counter properly micro'ed muta strike. But again, if you've allowed the zerg to mass mutas, you're doing something wrong and the game is lost anyway.

A thing is that they will most assuredly keep some units and unit ideas for the second two games. Especially I feel the air war might not be big right now.

As I played in the Starcraft beta I know that they originally planned for the templars to have mind control, but quickly realised that was way to powerful. How many times now have they not changed the mothership around from the first presentation? almost only the appearance is the same now.
 
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Phoenix's are, pound for pound, better then muta's by quite a lot. The problem is that Protoss are usually focusing on the Robotics facility for observers to scout, and collossi/immortals because they are awesome. Zerg can almost instantly switch from spamming hydra's to spamming muta's with no drawbacks other then some upgrades not being effective. Each requires completely different counters and the protoss is much less able to quickly produce the counter. The only standard protoss unit that can be mass produced and can fight both ground to ground and ground to air is stalkers, and stalkers just plain suck at doing both of those. Especially Vs. Zerg Air. If they were buffed a bit against air then blink could at least them fend off muta's pretty well, while its anti ground power atm could at least suffice combined with better anti air.

I can see a phoenix/DT combination still being a potentially good build, it won't just be the I-Win button against an unprepared opponent like in SC1. At the very least, a large phoenix group puts the zerg very much on the defensive, no way they are going to be expanding outside of their natural for a long time. A handful of phoenix's can deal kill overlords AND pick off queens AND pick off some drones, that can really set zerg back a long time. Unlike corsairs though, you need at least 4 or 5 phoenixes to start being able to kill anything well, whereas 'sairs could start pissing zerg's off with just 1 or 2.

kris said:
A thing is that they will most assuredly keep some units and unit ideas for the second two games. Especially I feel the air war might not be big right now.

That's my feelings. Canonically, think of the current multiplayer battles simply being a subset of the entire war with limited technology. Corsairs/Goliaths/Defilers are still being used, they just aren't part of the specific force you lead. The singleplayer supposedly still has some/most of those original SC1 units.
 

Castanova

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I see a lot of people using MULEs when they're not in need of scans. I'm thinking the Supply Depot buff might be better in a greater number of situations. It's basically a free supply depot. So that means the ability gives you 100 minerals plus you don't need to pull off an SCV to build it. MULE gets you money faster but it's not free money, it's money you were going to get anyway.

Apparently you can use the MULE to do some funny shit, though. Like if the enemy is massing banelings and if you can see his army sitting around, you can call down a MULE into their army and cause some self-destruction.
 
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New patch. Warp gate research slowed a lot (about time, warp gates were stupid easy to mass units with), Hydra's and nydus nerfed (Hydra's were raping far too many things before lol). Burrow more expensive and research time increased, which is basically a nerf to the roach since its the one that abuses burrow so much early game. Infestor's mind control is now infinite duration but range nerfed a bit (not huge, but its below upgraded collossi now). Infestor themselves got their health and move speed underground nerfed a bit. So its easier to straight up kill the infestors in a single battle, but if you screw up they can have their own personal collossos bodyguards for the rest of the match :lol:


Castanova said:
I see a lot of people using MULEs when they're not in need of scans. I'm thinking the Supply Depot buff might be better in a greater number of situations. It's basically a free supply depot. So that means the ability gives you 100 minerals plus you don't need to pull off an SCV to build it. MULE gets you money faster but it's not free money, it's money you were going to get anyway.

More money now vs More money later. More money now wins 99.99% of the time. Even if the game ends up in a stalemate with almost no resources available, you probably would have done much worse if you hadn't had those extra minerals earlier. I agree that the bunker up stone wall defensive part of me wants to agree with you, but SC2 is most definitely not that kind of game at the moment.

Castanova said:
Apparently you can use the MULE to do some funny shit, though. Like if the enemy is massing banelings and if you can see his army sitting around, you can call down a MULE into their army and cause some self-destruction.

This is awesome as hell.
 

Reject_666_6

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I though a more direct nerf of the Roach was needed. In 80% of games I've watched with Zerg, Roaches did fine in overwhelming the enemy without using burrow once, maybe even without it researched at all.
 

a wild nigger

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You want to go MULE over the supply depot thing every time. MULE is far better, and is the equivalent of the Zerg's Larva Injection and Protoss's Chrono Boost.

MULEs can be called down on another Terran's tank line, which causes destruction similar to what is done with banelings.

Hopefully the increase in warp gate build time (60 seconds to 140 seconds) that came out today will help fix PvP. Unfortunately, it may make early game PvZ significantly harder than it already was. We'll see, haven't played any games on the new patch yet.
 

Castanova

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Overweight Manatee said:
More money now vs More money later. More money now wins 99.99% of the time.

Exactly my point. If you use supply call down instead of building a supply depot, you're gaining 100 minerals right now. Plus, you're gaining like 50 minerals in the short term while your SCV continues to mine. If you call down a MULE, you need to wait like 90 seconds until it pays for that 150 minerals and nets you some additional minerals.

The MULE is a back-ended mineral gain and that's only in terms of speed, not overall money mine-able.
 

kris

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Monocause said:
A question for you guys: what army do you have after about seven minutes, regardless of the race? Ie. how many roaches, how many M&Ms, how many zeals/stalkers?

This can sometimes be decieving. Just saying that because I watched my replay in a PvP game. He went the route to Zealot rush me, I went another.

after 7 mins (at which time he attacked me):
Him: 23 workers, 20 zealots.
Me: 21 workers, 10 zealots and 1 sentry.

I crushed him because me zealots was upgraded, my sentry cut off his force and I had two photon cannons. When he prepared the second attack I dropped 8 zealots behind his lines and it was over.

Thing is, looking at the game after 7 mins and it looked like he would steamroll me. (note: he would possibly have done it if he attacked with his first 4 zealots.)
 

Monocause

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I've created a box.net account for the 'dex. One of the purposes would be to share SC2 replays.

Go to: www.box.net

login: rpgcodexspam@gmail.com
password: rpgcodex

Box.net is a great thing. You get 1gb of free and easy to use storage, the file upload limit is 25 mb. Works wonders especially if you're a student to share your notes'n stuff. No gimmicks like rapidshare waiting times or trouble with NATs.

Just uploaded a replay of me kicking a zerg noob's arse. He would've kicked mine if he was better (since he'd scout me early with an overlord and go mutas quick), but you can see a fun trick to do if you're terran and expect someone to roach rush you - or really rush anything ground-based at you.
 

Grunker

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Great. I'll check some of those out.

Btw, use DropBox. Same as box.net, but 2GB limit and excellent file syncronization.
 

Monocause

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Don't bother watching all of it. I should've raped him about ten minutes earlier, I lost a lot of time due to not knowing terran hotkeys and other terran-specific stuff. Then, when I realised that he was a complete noob I relaxed completely and stopped caring about the tempo, knowing that the 'rines I got would kill anything he'd bring.

See the first minutes - especially watch what he's doing with his units and the "?" later on :D
 

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