KickStarter Free Stars: Children of Infinity - upcoming Star Control 2 sequel from Fred Ford's Pistol Shrimp Games - Kickstarter Live

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I just went to check my GOG wishlist to remove Star Control: origins form it, but I never added it in the first place.

 

[MRY]

This is an unusual and unfortunate way for these things to shake out. If only Aesop had thought to warn us...

Spoiler

Oh.

Anyway, it reminds me of an experience I had on one of the first commercial projects I worked on -- the first I got paid real money for. A fairly generous but business-oriented guy funded the product of a game, to the tune of probably ~$20k out of pocket, plus a non-trivial amount of his employee's work hours on the project. In exchange, he was entitled to a large chunk of the game's profits. For a time, it looked like the game was going to be very profitable -- Nintendo was interested in publishing it, or at least vaguely so -- but then publisher interest disappeared, and then the system for which the game was made became obsolete, and the coders became disillusioned, and the game sat at about 90% completion.

Years passed.

Interest in console (and particularly cartridge) retrogaming suddenly made the game seem like a viable product, but in a pretty limited way. An outfit approached the project lead and offered to finish and release (on cartridge!) the game, in exchange for the overwhelming majority of the profits. The businessman, however, balked -- after all, he was entitled to his share of the profits. He was still out $20k or whatever, and it seemed unreasonable that others would profit off the game while he wouldn't in any meaningful way. So the opportunity passed.

Years passed. The coders decided to try to finish the game, and made some headway, and then lost interest. They then decided to make it open source. Again the businessman balked, and the eventual compromise -- which prevented others from profiting from the game if they completed it -- more or less killed any interest in finishing it.

So, end of the story is that the game is unfinished, no one got any profits, except for folks like me who got paid in days of yore.

Something similar seems to be going on here. I'd be very said of profits and contracts, necessary though both are to the functioning of a healthy market for video games, were to thwart the creation of further IP in a franchise which, after all, has been fallow for 25 years.

 

[MRY]

Probably unrelated:

 

[Infinitron]

Frogboy wtf

I don't understand what the rights to sell the old games have to do with this, though. Are they looking to make a sequel or do an IP grab? Also where were they for a decade?

 

[CreamyBlood]

What a bizarre and unexpected turn of events.

 

[Sordid MCA/Prosper Hybryd]

 

[Frogboy]

(brad from Stardock here)

Why are you guys yelling at Stardock?

Stardock has no interest to use the old IP, has stated numerous times that it has no intention to use the IP without Paul and Fred's involvement.

*I* am the one who posted about Ghosts first on the UQM forums. Stardock has been nothing but supportive of the UQM/Ghosts project.

The classic games have been being sold long before Stardock acquired the rights and Paul and Fred have been getting paid royalties ever since.

They are the ones who signed an onerous agreement with Accolade those years ago. Stardock is the one offering to release them from it so that they can make their game unhindered and codify that Stardock will transfer any and all rights to the classic series IP to them.

I mean seriously, what more could anyone want? And btw, we got this "announcement" at the same time you guys did.

Further responses will be over here: https://forums.starcontrol.com/485378

 

[MRY]

From that thread:

We have been trying to put together an agreement that transfers any and all rights we may have to their IP to them while simultaneously lifting any and all restrictions that exist on that IP. It's not a matter of what we "believe". The exclusive, perpetual, license agreement they signed speaks for itself. We aren't interested in using their IP without their permission. This has been stated countless times. But yes, to release them of these restrictions and codify that we are willing to forever forego using that licensed IP does require them to sign a piece of paper that does, sadly, involve lawyers to draft it up.

Sounds like the issue is that Paul and Fred disagree about what rights Stardock actually has and don't want to sign an agreement licensing certain rights to them that would also acknowledge that those rights (and others) presently belong to Stardock. "If you recognize me as your king, I will recognize that you and your line shall hold these lands in fief forevermore." I can see how such an arrangement would seem very generous to someone who was convinced he was, in fact, the king and owned the lands (lands and crown he'd redeemed at his own cost from some wicked foreign lord), and why it would see onerous and unacceptable if you believed that in fact you had a republican freehold over that land and that the king only had a crown that he'd claimed off some dead foreign sovereign. It does seem like something best resolved in private but I guess there's always leverage to be had with a public row.

 

[groke]

*squeezing* the *juice* very hard right now.

 

[Cael]

Oh, YEAH! A new Star Control. A REAL Star Control. Not the cash grab shite that has nothing to do with Star Control except for the name they tacked on it.

WOOHOO!!

 

[Frogboy]

From that thread:

We have been trying to put together an agreement that transfers any and all rights we may have to their IP to them while simultaneously lifting any and all restrictions that exist on that IP. It's not a matter of what we "believe". The exclusive, perpetual, license agreement they signed speaks for itself. We aren't interested in using their IP without their permission. This has been stated countless times. But yes, to release them of these restrictions and codify that we are willing to forever forego using that licensed IP does require them to sign a piece of paper that does, sadly, involve lawyers to draft it up.

Sounds like the issue is that Paul and Fred disagree about what rights Stardock actually has and don't want to sign an agreement licensing certain rights to them that would also acknowledge that those rights (and others) presently belong to Stardock. "If you recognize me as your king, I will recognize that you and your line shall hold these lands in fief forevermore." I can see how such an arrangement would seem very generous to someone who was convinced he was, in fact, the king and owned the lands (lands and crown he'd redeemed at his own cost from some wicked foreign lord), and why it would see onerous and unacceptable if you believed that in fact you had a republican freehold over that land and that the king only had a crown that he'd claimed off some dead foreign sovereign. It does seem like something best resolved in private but I guess there's always leverage to be had with a public row.

That's not it at all. It's more a release. As in, any and all rights Stardock has are transferred to you and any and all restrictions on that IP are removed.

Now, of course, they don't have to sign anything. They can leave the legality murky if they want. Most people here are reasonably savvy so I would like to think most people here would agree with me when I say they should probably sign the document that gives them all those rights free and clear.

 

[Cael]

Update:

https://dogarandkazon.squarespace.c...eat-battles-and-some-of-them-involved-lawyers

“THERE WERE MANY GREAT BATTLES... AND SOME OF THEM INVOLVED LAWYERS.”

• Despite what Stardock's Brad Wardell has recently said, including in this Ars Technica article, our games’ universe has absolutely no connection, hyper-dimensional or otherwise, with Star Control®: Origins. (Note: We really don’t like other people putting our names in their diagrams without asking us first.)

Evidently all is not well between them and Stardock.

So fuck Stardock I guess.

Even if the game Paul and Fred make is shit (if they can even make it) at least they will be the ones killing their franchise rather than some dipshit who bought the rights at Atari's yard sale.

So it is OFFICIAL. Stardock is only after the goodwill and the publicity the name would generate. Even the original makers of Star Control don't want them to put their IP's name on the lame piece of junk they are making that has absolutely ZERO to do with Star Control. The so-called 'prequel" isn't even a prequel. It is set in some sort of alternate dimension where Earthlings became an interstellar power on their own, which blatantly contradicts established SC lore, and has NONE of the Star Control lore in it. NONE.

Frakk Stardock. I will put them on the banned list for this piracy of a good IP.

 

[MRY]

That's not it at all. It's more a release. As in, any and all rights Stardock has are transferred to you and any and all restrictions on that IP are removed.

Well, you could always quitclaim to them, which might not even require their signature. I assume the issue is that the form of the agreement is (as my analogy suggests), "Whereas Stardock has certain rights to the intellectual property associated with Star Control; whereas Stardock wishes to allow Paul and Fred to develop such intellectual property as they see fit; etc." (I really hope there aren't actually whereases in it!) And then the release is not sufficiently blanket to satisfy them.

I mean, we're also savvy enough to know that if literally all you were doing was quitclaiming all your rights to them, they wouldn't be complaining about it in public, so there's obviously something they're being asked to acknowledge (certain rights belonging to Stardock, either explicit or implicit) that they don't want to acknowledge.

Obviously, if you wanted to remove any doubt you could just post the proposed agreement, though it would be unreasonable to expect you to do so. (But then, you've always had an absurdly transparent way of going about things, whether it was DRM-free or off-the-cuff Twitter banter, or, hell, your posting about this disagreement in a thread on the Codex.)

I tried to construct my analogy above in a way that wouldn't weight the scales one way or the other -- having long followed Star Control's saga, and having read your love of the franchise and admiration for its creators -- I am not leaping to the conclusion that you're a villain here, and certainly miscommunication and stress is common in these circumstances. I just have a hard time believing that they are acting irrationally, as opposed to both of you acting rationally based on different views of the state of the world.

 

[Frogboy]

Right now, your guess is as good as mine. Some of you read this before we did.

Until the lawyers talk, we really don't know what, precisely, is their issue. I can speculate that their issue is related to what you described in 59 but I really don't know. I don't know if I'd describe their actions as irrational (though, I think the wisdom of riling up the fan base is questionable). I'd have to talk to them to understand what, exactly, they want.

To be sure, there are certainly things we want them to abide by (for example, they can't, obviously, call their game Star Control -- they initially announced their game as the sequel to Star Control II. Imagine if they tried to pull that with Activision or EA).

We also want them to acknowledge that we have no responsibility to protect or enforce the IP rights to I/II (the IP ownership in Star Control II is a Byzantium mess, we don't want to have any liability to it).

Right now, I'm pretty much speculating as to what their motives are as much as you guys are. I would have thought that our public promotion of Ghosts was an indication of how happiness about it.

 

[Jason Liang]

I've read the press releases and the Ars Technica article and it seems like the conflict is centered around the graphic Stardock provided to Ars Technica.

Star Control IV: The Battle for Star Control control

I think the problem is that you probably intended for this graphic to illustrate the conceptual relationship between the various games and future projects, but Paul Fred read it as implying a legal relationship between the games and publication rights instead. It does imply that publishing SC1/2 and their future project would require permission from the "pink" owner of the Star Control IP.

Hope that's helpful.

 

[MRY]

(for example, they can't, obviously, call their game Star Control -- they initially announced their game as the sequel to Star Control II. Imagine if they tried to pull that with Activision or EA).

That's not obvious to me. I know that trademark law requires you to enforce your mark lest you lose it, but this seems like someplace where you'd want to license it (at some nominal cost), since their game almost certainly will enhance rather than harm the value of the brand. That said, I've long had the rule when someone with a successful track record is pursuing a course I don't understand, I figure it's because I'm an idiot not because they are.

 

[Frogboy]

What makes RPGCodex special, as many of you already know is that many of the people here have been around the gaming world for a very long time.

So at a certain point, I need to be able to rely on you guys to know the intent. I don't think there's a "bad guy" here. Speaking only for myself, I think there's some unresolved issues with Accolade from years ago we don't know about that are being transferred to us.

What I can promise you guys (and this falls into the don't poop where you live mantra since I hang out here) is that we will be as gentle and show as much restraint as possible. We really do want them to make their game and we really don't want to try to inject their aliens or lore into SCO.

G'night you guys! (most of you Europeans should already be asleep for crying out loud!)

 

[Infinitron]

Do Paul & Fred have an email address? I wonder if we could get them to post here too.

 

[Makabb]

Infinitron baiting for some cheap drama.

 

[Black_Willow]

established SC lore

You mean, like, stuff that happened in SC3?

 

[Cael]

established SC lore

You mean, like, stuff that happened in SC3?

Accepting stuff that happened in SC3 would be far better than the "alternate dimension" utter conjob that Stardock is offering. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with SC other than the name. It is just utter FRAUD.

 

[mastroego]

Well I don't know, I don't consider Stardock a stellar developer, as I've said many times, but I've yet to find them at fault for lack of transparency or ethics.
I'd err on their side ATM.

 

[Black_Willow]

if literally all you were doing was quitclaiming all your rights to them, they wouldn't be complaining about it in public

Are you sure about that? I mean, they just seem VERY ANGRY because someone else is making a game with "Star Control" in the title.

 

[Jason Liang]

I think it's just a misunderstanding over that graphic and perhaps some underlying issues as well.

But IDK why Paul Fred didn't buy the IP themselves if it was for sale.

 

[Infinitron]

I think it's just a misunderstanding over that graphic and perhaps some underlying issues as well.

But IDK why Paul Fred didn't buy the IP themselves if it was for sale.

Perhaps their terms of employment with Activision didn't allow it at the time. Ie, probably the same reason they didn't start making a game then.