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Splinter Cell Blacklist: the king of stealth is back ?

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Divinity: Original Sin
the abandon mill is: go to the wall where a sniper is, go to the roof, get down through a rope (from which you can't go back anymore), get posioned in truck, find morris o'brian.

grim missions are small maps, like multiplayer maps. that you were obligated to do everything in one playthrough.

Not saying the game was no fun. Or more linear than the previous ones... but it was linear as any splinter cell.
 

MetalCraze

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So I've been playing original Splinter Cell for a while and
Im sorry for you.

I dont understand someone criticizing Blacklist while praising the linear trial-and-error piece of crap that is the first.

Still better than Conviction 2 which is a casual piece of crap through and through.

There can be a yard filled with enemies and all you do is just dash from box to box without even thinking and BLAM you are through it.

Moving slowly to pass through a noisy surface or following enemy at his own speed hoping he won't turn around? Fuck that shit, just hit space till you win.

In Splinter Cell 1 getting barely lit made enemies spot movement and react to it immediately. Binary shit of Conviction 2 makes you able to hide even in smallest shadows (same retarded stuff as PC version of DA) and you can run through open areas with ease because you have 2 seconds till enemies spot you even if you are in a plain view. And of course whereas you had to constantly be on the move in 1/2/3 when enemies spotted suspicious shit - in Conviction 2 you get this retarded detection silhouette which tells you "move 10m away and ambush all retards that will come to check exactly that spot" same as Conviction 1.

Not to mention that in original Splinter Cell getting caught can be tough. And in Conviction 2 you got caught? No problem just kill everybody because health regen makes you virtually unkillable.

See that's the difference.

In original SC you MUST use stealth.

In Conviction 2 you LARP stealth.
 
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Silva

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Yup, everything you just said is true. You are absolutely right. And even then, Splinter Cell 1 is a totally linear and frustrating trial and error-based experience. Thats the facts.

Atmospheric ? Yes.
Tense ? Absolutely.
Realistic ? Totally.
Pretty (for the time) ? Sure as hell.

But dynamic and open-ended gameplay-wise ? No. Simply no.

So the crux of the matter here is: do you prefer a more atmospheric and complex albeit more linear and frustrating experience ? Or do you prefere a more dynamic and open experience, albeit an easier and more simplistic one ?

(Tip: swap the original SC for Chaos Theory and I wont have arguments for you. But SC 1 has blatant flaws, that are even more apparent today after 1) the genre evolved and 2) its glitz dont shine so much anymore. And FYI, I absolutely love SC1.)
 

MetalCraze

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All SC games are linear. Linearity is my main gripe with the series in fact. It's just puzzle area after puzzle area after puzzle area a la Commandos. And yeah SC1 has issues and SCCT is the king, but I'm going through series from the start again.

The key difference is the gameplay however. And no Blacklist is not open and dynamic. It's exactly the same puzzle areas made more trivial.

You confuse dynamic gameplay with stealth-focused abilities replaced with Dishonored-grade stuff making you feel super-awesome.

Original SC games are about "choices to sneak", this one is about "choices to kill"

the genre evolved
No stealth genre just died. Pressing an awesome button and see shit die is a different genre altogether bro.
 

Tehdagah

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No stealth genre just died. Pressing an awesome button and see shit die is a different genre altogether bro.
The stealth genre was never alive in the first place. 'Stealth' is a mechanic that doesn't work well in videogames.
 

Nryn

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I finished a ghost playthrough on perfectionist difficulty and thought it was a pretty good sneak-em-up. Before playing blacklist I replayed the first three games on the highest difficulty, doing ghost runs. Chaos Theory was my favorite, and it still is, but Blacklist is easily my second favorite of the lot.

What I liked:
1) The number of guards in each area is significantly larger compared to the older games. In the older games, console constraints are probably to blame for each area having only 3 or so guards. In contrast, lots of areas had nearly a dozen guards to watch out for, which made the sneaking element feel much more dynamic. Hands down, it's the most difficult Splinter Cell if you are playing on the highest difficulty with the intention to do perfect ghost runs.

2) The level design is built around ghosting, with multiple paths -- more so than in the older Splinter Cells. Compared to the first two games, the levels don't feel overly linear and scripted though each area boils down to getting from point A to B. Roughly 85% of the game can be purely ghosted through, but more on this later.

3) The visibility mechanic can no longer be abused by shooting out all the lights if you are going for ghost runs. Shooting lights puts guards into an investigative state, which disqualifies you from getting perfect ghost ratings.

What I didn't like:
1) About 10-15% of the game has non-stealth sections, which is about the same as in the original Splinter Cell. Thankfully, those sections are nowhere as terrible as the Kalinatek shooting in SC1, Oil Rig in SC1, etc., but compared to the rest of the game, these sections feel like they are the result of the disjointed Ubi game making process. One of the main reasons why I found Chaos Theory to be better.

2) The scoring system has a significant flaw in how it scores Ghost and Panther playstyles. In the Tehran Embassy mission, there are a couple of sections where the enemy is searching for an intruder. Sneaking past the enemies in this scenario awards you with Panther points, yet knocking them out gives you Ghost points. Unfortunately, this is not a bug, and it is just how the system is set up. The plus side to this system, as mentioned before, is that shooting out lights to sneak past enemies is not a valid strategy anymore. On the downside, in scenarios where the enemies are already investigating something, knocking them out is the only way to "Ghost", as the game defines it.

3) The Checkpoint system works for the most part -- it is no Hitman Absolution where you spend many minutes hearing the same guard conversation over and over again because of a terrible checkpoint system. The system here is more intelligent, but there is one particular section in the Tehran Embassy where its drawbacks are apparent, as you are forced to redo a 1 minute+ scripted sequence over and over again.

All in all, I thought it was an unexpected surprise after Conviction. It's one of the better games I've played this year. For the followup, they need to bring Amon Tobin back for the soundtrack and bring back humour in the form of guard interrogations.
 

Silva

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Nryn, have you played any of the GRIM coop missions ? They are truly open, and I mean it - big Hitman-style sandbox maps that you can come and go as you please with lots of different approaches to get at the objectives.
 

Nryn

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Nryn, have you played any of the GRIM coop missions ? They are truly open, and I mean it - big Hitman-style sandbox maps that you can come and go as you please with lots of different approaches to get at the objectives.
I played them solo, which kind of added to the challenge since the co-op shortcuts were disabled. They were the standouts as far as optional missions went. The first mission was especially memorable, and it took me the better part of an hour to puzzle out the best path.
 

MetalCraze

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I'm going through series from the start again.
Don't forget to try the ps2/gc/xbox version of Double Agent.

That's my goal. Now that PCSX2 is working well with quad-cores. Hoping it was the last good Splinter Cell game and not Chaos Theory.

The stealth genre was never alive in the first place. 'Stealth' is a mechanic that doesn't work well in videogames.
What you want to say is that it doesn't work well in videogames that have shitty stealth mechanic. Like Blacklist.
 
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DeepOcean

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Started playing Blacklist now, I don't know if it get's better later but I finished the first mission on Lybia and finished the first Grim Co-op mission. Until the moment, it just look like an improved version of Conviction where a few things that were missing were added again but nothing more. My main complain is the level design, while Chaos Theory was linear as well, the levels in Blacklist (the main missions, at least), feel alot restricted. You start a mission, there is an arena, then corridors and more corridors then another arena then more corridors, arena... The corridors bits with their simplistic platforming and cinematic bullshit felt like wasted time, the only thing that was kinda of fun was how to ghost on the few arenas available inside missions but even there, I always felt that there was Always a pathway designed for stealth and take any other rout would lead to getting caught or repetitive trial and error. There was this section on the level that I couldn't ghost at all, there was a dog and alot of guards but as soon as I discovered the stealth rout... okay, challenge gone. Stealth, a few times become a game of let's discover the inevitable secret optimal rout.

I didn't liked how they throw alot of enemies and enemies that can know exactly where you are (dogs) on a small space, during day light and to make things worse with a checkpoint system. If you go in perfectionist, prepare to trial and error to extreme. The coop mission that I played was alot better, it even appear that was made by another team, it was an old fort in the sea with two floors, the corridor fest of the main missions was mostly gone and while there was still the problem of the optimal rout designed for stealth, going in other routs isn't that terrible for a ghost walkthrough but the mission was really small. Another thing that infuriate me, context sensitive actions ... Do you want to close a door? Do you think that is a question of looking to the door and closing it? No, you have to aim to the empty space where the door was. Wanting to enter in cover? Prepare to hit the cover button at least two times to Sam to react. The movement is very sensive, if you are out of cover, you move too much with each button press. It isn't the worst Splinter Cell game but I'm not having fun, the horrible America fuck yeah story and bog standard art design with generic Middle East levels don't help either.
 

Silva

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GRIM missions are the best ones in the whole Splinter Cell series.

And Blacklist is to Chaos Theory what Dishonored is to Thief and Deus Ex HR is to Deus Ex.

Popamole versions ? yes, but good ones. Its totally worth the money. Its like the devs are learning to dare more with each new popamole. Soon we will be back on the hardcore era.
 

DalekFlay

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Popamole versions ? yes, but good ones. Its totally worth the money. Its like the devs are learning to dare more with each new popamole. Soon we will be back on the hardcore era.

When all the PC genres went to consoles with Xbox they made everything retard-proof. Seems like now, as we get further and further into the multiplatform era, devs are finding their balls again.
 

MetalCraze

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So devs are finding their balls by releasing a horribly dumbed down version of Splinter Cell again? Where the only way to play it is by killing everyone with a multitude of smgs, shotguns and assault rifles and everything else is just pretending?

I'm not sure that's what incline is bro.

You can kill everybody in one room going full rambo and then when you enter the next one nobody gives a shit. What an amazing stealth game! It's stealth because everybody is blind and deaf. BALLS
 
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Silva

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I ghosted the game. So killing people with SMGs, shotguns and whatever is not the only way to play it.

Its obvious the game has problems, but its on the right direction.
 

MetalCraze

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I ghosted the game. So killing people with SMGs, shotguns and whatever is not the only way to play it.
Can you tell me why would you play it in any other way? Especially considering that killing everybody is the only rewarding one and so called stealth is nothing but tedium because there's no noise and no visibility. Just magical places making you totally invisible. And it's all about pressing dash button at the right time since you are unable to sneak right in this game.

Its obvious the game has problems, but its on the right direction.
Right direction to where? It plays exactly like Conviction but now with retarded plane hub and unlocks, except level design is slightly less shit.
 

DalekFlay

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So devs are finding their balls by releasing a horribly dumbed down version of Splinter Cell again? Where the only way to play it is by killing everyone with a multitude of smgs, shotguns and assault rifles and everything else is just pretending?

I'm not sure that's what incline is bro.

I haven't played this game yet, but Dishonored, Skyrim and Human Revolution are much improved from their immediate predecessors.
 

Zewp

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Codex 2013
So I just finished Blacklist because I was bored as fuck. It's actually rather alright. It's nowhere close to as shit as Conviction, except for that piece of shit QTE ending.

"Press 'e' to exercise fifth freedom."
 

Humppaleka

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Don't forget to try the ps2/gc/xbox version of Double Agent.
Hmm, is there something wrong with the PC version? That is one game I've yet to play to the end in the series (don't care for any of them after that), lost my save file ages ago.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

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Don't forget to try the ps2/gc/xbox version of Double Agent.
Hmm, is there something wrong with the PC version? That is one game I've yet to play to the end in the series (don't care for any of them after that), lost my save file ages ago.
PC/X360/PS3 version was developed by Ubisoft Shanghai, and they made a shitty ass game.
Other versions (PS2/Xbox/GC/Wii) were developed by Ubisoft Montreal, and this version is considered to be the greatest game in entire Splinter Cell series.
 

Silva

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Old-gen version of Double Agent is actually good. I followed a lets play on tube till 6th mission or something. Its not Chaos Theory quality stuff (nor Blacklist either IMHO) but is good.

Also, if you havent player Conviction, do it. Its a nice game, with perhaps the best story in the series, and good action. Just treat it like a series spin-off or something and you will be good.
 

DalekFlay

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This is $10 on Humble Bundle for another couple hours. I went ahead and got it, so a decline report from the front lines will be coming eventually.
 

sexbad?

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I have it too, because a friend who has no interest in games got it with his 770. Maybe I'll have to check it out now too.
 

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