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Spiderweb Software cancels all future iOS development (UPDATE: or not)

Loriac

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Jan 20, 2007
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Vogel throws hissy fit because Apple broke his latest game with their latest update, decides to take his toys and leave:

http://toucharcade.com/2015/04/16/avernum-2-crystal-souls-for-ipad-cancelled/

Really not sure what to think of Spiderweb Software these days, my gut feeling is that its a spent force. Even rehashing old games seems too much trouble for the guy, I guess its time he put his feet up and sipped cocktails in the sun.
 

TigerKnee

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I guess its time he put his feet up and sipped cocktails in the sun.
He's always complaining about not earning enough money from his games, so unless he inherited a huge sum of money recently I doubt that's going to happen.
 

ghostdog

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:lol: This comes from the guy that disabled door closing in all versions of AFTP because he couldn't make it work on iOS and he felt that if ipadders can't have it, nobody should have it.

He has done some incredible crpg work, but he needs to make Spiderweb an actual developing studio if he is to survive the future. He desperately needs an artist and probably another programmer.
 

Blackguard

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Vogel throws hissy fit because Apple broke his latest game with their latest update, decides to take his toys and leave:

http://toucharcade.com/2015/04/16/avernum-2-crystal-souls-for-ipad-cancelled/

Really not sure what to think of Spiderweb Software these days, my gut feeling is that its a spent force. Even rehashing old games seems too much trouble for the guy, I guess its time he put his feet up and sipped cocktails in the sun.

Not really seeing the hissy fit. For people not bothering to read the Spiderweb forums these are his reasons and they seem completely reasonable to me.

After several years of good time, we at Spiderweb have come to the sad conclusion that we can no longer develop new games for the iPad. The iPad titles currently on iTunes will still be available as long as we are able to support them. As soon as Apple makes changes that makes it impossible to support them, they will be removed.

There are a few reasons for this decision.

1. Competition on the App Store has risen to a frenzied level. As a result, sales for our games has dropped massively and the cost of advertising them has shot through the roof.

2. Changes in iOS 8.3 completely broke the engine we have been using for the last several years. To continue development would requiring licensing and learning a whole new engine, and the low potential earnings just doesn't make it worthwhile.

3. Honestly, the complexity of every single thing we do has shot up in the last few years. My brain no longer has the time and energy to deal with Apple forcing me to relearn how to program every few years. This is, of course, my failing.

We know a lot of fans will be disappointed in this decision. Believe me, we're really unhappy about it. And this may not be permanent. In a few years, we can look at the marketplace and the technical requirements and rethink things. For now, though, this is the only decision that makes sense, and we apologize to the fans we've disappointed.
 

Loriac

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I think you have to read between the lines a little.

My impression is that porting the games to tablets was originally seen as an easy way to grab money from mobile gamers, and it was done with a view to do as little work as possible in terms of changing the UI and gameplay mechanics to best fit tablets. For instance, the android ports of Avernum and Avadon completely ignored the fact that the screen ratio of most android tablets is 16:9 or 16:10 rather than 4:3, and there was no scaling of the UI so on most tablets the buttons were far too small, even using a stylus. Whilst in theory android games sales generate less revenue than the iOS platform, this was no excuse to do a half-assed port. Perhaps because of that, or perhaps because android gamers are cheap, the games did very poorly on the platform and Vogel pulled the plug very quickly.

Now we see a similar story with iOS - if you read some of the reviews on iOS, gamers there recognise that the spiderweb software games have few competitors in the serious RPG space. With a bit of effort to create an RPG actually tailored to the platform, spiderweb could have built up some nice market share *because they have no fucking competition in the mobile space*. Instead, when the half-assed port fails to generate lots of lucre for zero-effort, Vogel complains about competition etc.

Point 3, about Vogel no longer having the time or energy to bother with this shit anymore is the only point that really strikes me as being 100% honest. Which is what I said in different words - Spiderweb is basically a spent force now, because Vogel is simply looking for the easiest route to milk a few more dollars out of games that he's sold and resold over two decades.

Its a bit sad really; Vogel's games would work brilliantly on tablets if he actually made a proper effort. The UI etc could translate well into a touch-screen set up, and there are literally no decent RPGs in that space that hold a candle to his games - the closest I can think of in the android space (I don't have an iPad so don't follow iOS that closely) are the Trese brothers games, which are getting better but well short of the overall experience spiderweb games offer.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Mobile platforms just aren't worth it for real games. You can find lots of dev stories about it.
 

Loriac

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Mobile platforms just aren't worth it for real games. You can find lots of dev stories about it.

And yet current projections are that they will represent 1/6 of all gaming revenue in a couple of years time.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/260167/mobile-gaming-share-of-total-gaming-revenue-worldwide/


I'm also curious whether spiderweb games fall into the 'real games' category. I can understand for instance an AAA publisher looking at revenue streams and not being able to justify spending tens of millions of dollars on a mobile game - but really this whole model is suspect, not just for mobile gaming but also for consoles and computers. And on the codex, I think most posters can see that spending money on fluff to attract the casual gamer (massive art budgets, voice-acting, all sorts of other presentational bells and whistles) and generally catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't make for what we'd class as 'real games' in any case.

The recent surge in old school games, using kickstarter as a way to guarantee a floor on revenues, suggests that there are niches out there that, whilst underwhelming for an AAA developer, would certainly suit smaller outfits. Just because the current approach to monetization on mobile platforms (freemium / ad-based / microtransactions / low price points) doesn't work for a lot of devs doesn't mean that the revenue isn't potentially there; it simply means the right approach hasn't yet been identified. But you can't put the cart before the horse: first you have to make a good game thats tailored to the mobile space, and only then can you hope to extract decent revenue from it. If you make a half-assed pile of shit, you shouldn't blame the platform for denying you your revenues, when its far more likely to be that nobody wants to reward laziness and incompetence.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Loriac

A few years ago Facebook was the big "growth" segment of games. It's probably still a few billion dollars per year. The vast majority of facebook and mobile "gamers" don't want real games. They want a distraction for 10 mins while waiting for a bus or taking a dump. They don't want a detail RPG you need spend an hour with at a time to get something out of. So yes Vogel RPGs fit the category of "real games".

And on the codex, I think most posters can see that spending money on fluff to attract the casual gamer (massive art budgets, voice-acting, all sorts of other presentational bells and whistles) and generally catering to the lowest common denominator doesn't make for what we'd class as 'real games' in any case.
I'm not talking about "on the codex" I'm talking about games that take time and investment to get something out of. Usually games that invest millions of dollars into bells and whistles actually fit this category. They're mostly real games, just not very good (and sometimes they're not, The Order 1886 and Ryse).

There might be a niche of people on mobile platforms who want real games, but it's so small and so hard to reach it's not worth the effort. Which was my original point. Not that the people don't exist, but it's not worth going after them when you can just make your game for PC and reach 10x the audience.

Check out Shadowrun Dragonfall:

300k sales on steam: http://steamspy.com/app/234650
5-10k sales on Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.harebrainedschemes.dragonfall&hl=en

And this is with a $15 base price on Steam and $7 base price on Android.

You also mention KS and all the big successes in KS have been for PC games. PC gamers love their games and are willing to pay for them, mobile gamers as a general and widely applicable rule just don't care.

This sounds interesting. Links? (My google-fu is bad)
Well you have Vogel and Shadowrun devs just saying "screw it" (Shadowrun Hong Kong is PC only). Whalenaught (Serpent in the Staglands) made their first game for mobile and then decided they didn't like it and switched to PC for their KS.

There was also another indie dev who just went on a rant, but I can't remember who. Infinitron do you remember who I'm talking about? I think good lines included "mobile gamers are just looking for a distraction" and they talked about how PC was a built in audience of people who loved games.
 

Rpgsaurus Rex

Guest
tuluse

Well, Android is notoriously bad for piracy, hence almost everything on there is shovelware with in-app purchases. What about iOS, though?
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
tuluse

Well, Android is notoriously bad for piracy, hence almost everything on there is shovelware with in-app purchases. What about iOS, though?
All the devs I mentioned had iOS releases and have since abandoned the platform.

I don't think Apple Store gives any indication of sales, so I can't do a comparison.

edit: PC is also "notorious" for piracy yet people can sell games on it.
 

Loriac

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There might be a niche of people on mobile platforms who want real games, but it's so small and so hard to reach it's not worth the effort. Which was my original point. Not that the people don't exist, but it's not worth going after them when you can just make your game for PC and reach 10x the audience.

And the same was said about spiderweb software during the wilderness years, when the only people playing his games were a small group of die-hard gamers who wanted that old-school style of rpg that simply wasn't catered to by the mainstream.

My thoughts on gaming, and I could be completely wrong about this of course, is that tablets do offer a lot even for the hardcore crowd. Sure you won't get the bestest graphics evah on tablet, but there are a few genres which work really well using a touch-screen UI. The style of game that Vogel specialises in, ironically, is one of those genres. If one or two developers can successfully port (or develop) a proper indie rpg on mobile, then they might be able to attract and retain that niche of gamers. I know I for one would buy well made mobile rpgs, because tablets are actually very very convenient once you start to use them a bit and realise what they can do.

Finally, when you quote statistics for SRR and Dragonfall, you have to remember a few salient points. HBS basically fucked up SRR; this was a crew that didn't even bother putting in save game functionality into a PC game, because it was too hard for them. They blew a shit-ton of money on making the game look nice, but simply didn't understand how to design PC games properly. Dragonfall salvaged that to a large extent, perhaps because they listened to what their customers were screaming at them - save game functionality, dragonfall as a standalone purchase and so on. But it wasn't for the lack of trying to fuck up based on sheer idiocy.

Now look at how SRR was taken across to the mobile platforms - it was priced at the top end for the platform, specs were set so high that only the best tablets could get the game to run, and even then it ran badly. Anyone who looks at the game (PC or mobile) is left scratching their heads wondering why the fuck it runs so badly - i.e. this isn't really a problem with the platform, its that HBS couldn't design properly, and couldn't optimise what they had once they built it. They've dropped the HK expansion from mobile platforms because they claim that they don't want performance or other issues to downgrade what they design for the PC, but the reality is that if they had a streamlined engine and properly optimized code, it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. My own suspicion is that they simply couldn't be bothered to optimize their code properly, and the PC is more forgiving because you have a lot more processing power on the latest generation of desktops and laptops.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So fucked up PC game: sells 300k
Fucked up android game: sells 10k

Which platform would you develop for?

(and the pc game version has double the base price)
 

Loriac

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So fucked up PC game: sells 300k
Fucked up android game: sells 10k

Which platform would you develop for?

(and the pc game version has double the base price)

How many of those sales were pre-baked into the pie because of the kickstarter? Why do HBS keep going back for fresh kickstarters for each expansion?
 

Mustawd

Guest
:lol: This comes from the guy that disabled door closing in all versions of AFTP because he couldn't make it work on iOS and he felt that if ipadders can't have it, nobody should have it.

He has done some incredible crpg work, but he needs to make Spiderweb an actual developing studio if he is to survive the future. He desperately needs an artist and probably another programmer.


Yeah, I'm actually playing through that right now. Really kills some of the freedom of the game in terms of stealing.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
How many of those sales were pre-baked into the pie because of the kickstarter?
36k backers. Lets call it 50k to be very generous with slacker backers.

Why do HBS keep going back for fresh kickstarters for each expansion?
They've done 2 expansions and only 1 extra KS.

However, that's the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is where are all the 1 million dollar+ mobile kickstarters? The answer is that they don't exist because mobile gamers don't care.
 

Xorazm

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Jan 22, 2015
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There might be a niche of people on mobile platforms who want real games, but it's so small and so hard to reach it's not worth the effort. Which was my original point. Not that the people don't exist, but it's not worth going after them when you can just make your game for PC and reach 10x the audience.

And the same was said about spiderweb software during the wilderness years, when the only people playing his games were a small group of die-hard gamers who wanted that old-school style of rpg that simply wasn't catered to by the mainstream.

My thoughts on gaming, and I could be completely wrong about this of course, is that tablets do offer a lot even for the hardcore crowd. Sure you won't get the bestest graphics evah on tablet, but there are a few genres which work really well using a touch-screen UI. The style of game that Vogel specialises in, ironically, is one of those genres. If one or two developers can successfully port (or develop) a proper indie rpg on mobile, then they might be able to attract and retain that niche of gamers. I know I for one would buy well made mobile rpgs, because tablets are actually very very convenient once you start to use them a bit and realise what they can do.

Finally, when you quote statistics for SRR and Dragonfall, you have to remember a few salient points. HBS basically fucked up SRR; this was a crew that didn't even bother putting in save game functionality into a PC game, because it was too hard for them. They blew a shit-ton of money on making the game look nice, but simply didn't understand how to design PC games properly. Dragonfall salvaged that to a large extent, perhaps because they listened to what their customers were screaming at them - save game functionality, dragonfall as a standalone purchase and so on. But it wasn't for the lack of trying to fuck up based on sheer idiocy.

Now look at how SRR was taken across to the mobile platforms - it was priced at the top end for the platform, specs were set so high that only the best tablets could get the game to run, and even then it ran badly. Anyone who looks at the game (PC or mobile) is left scratching their heads wondering why the fuck it runs so badly - i.e. this isn't really a problem with the platform, its that HBS couldn't design properly, and couldn't optimise what they had once they built it. They've dropped the HK expansion from mobile platforms because they claim that they don't want performance or other issues to downgrade what they design for the PC, but the reality is that if they had a streamlined engine and properly optimized code, it wouldn't be an issue in the first place. My own suspicion is that they simply couldn't be bothered to optimize their code properly, and the PC is more forgiving because you have a lot more processing power on the latest generation of desktops and laptops.

The problem is that to accept this argument means presuming that we, kicking around on a forum, have a better grasp on the fundamentals of the mobile gaming market than, well, the people who are actually in the mobile gaming market.

I agree with you that there's no reason in principle why mobile gaming can't take off, and I'm honestly puzzled as to why such a ubiquitous platform has failed to deliver anything in the way of classics or innovation, and why we're stuck with such clutter and fluff. The fact of the matter, though, is that we are, and with so many developers throwing up their hands over the platform then surely Occam's Razor would suggest the problem lies precisely there - with the platform itself, rather than shady conspiracy theories involving bad faith and two-faced trickery on the part of the deceitful devs.
 

Loriac

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I agree with you that there's no reason in principle why mobile gaming can't take off, and I'm honestly puzzled as to why such a ubiquitous platform has failed to deliver anything in the way of classics or innovation, and why we're stuck with such clutter and fluff. The fact of the matter, though, is that we are, and with so many developers throwing up their hands over the platform then surely Occam's Razor would suggest the problem lies precisely there - with the platform itself, rather than shady conspiracy theories involving bad faith and two-faced trickery on the part of the deceitful devs.

I disagree. There are development teams that are trying their best on mobile - on android, you have the Trese brothers and also Little Killerz (the Tales of Illyria games). Both these teams are developing solid rpgs, albeit with less polish than we'd expect to see in the PC market. This is simply because they need to get more experience in what they're doing, and polish their delivery as they do so.

The ones that are failing or delivering substandard shit are the ones coming in from the PC world, who expect to make a quick buck by passing off half-assed games that don't play to the platform's strength. Excuse me if my heart doesn't exactly bleed for these jokers when they claim that the economics of the platform are all wrong.

Just as in the PC world its sickening to see development houses make shit console games, and then port their pieces of crap (with substandard UI, optimization and 8-year old graphics capabilities) to the PC, we're seeing a similar failure when games are ported to mobiles - instead of properly redesigning games to make the best use of mobile strengths, we get badly coded, badly optimized rubbish that then (unsurprisingly) doesn't sell well.

Why is it that houses like Sqaure Enix quietly put out their stuff to android and ios, charge what they think are decent amounts, and presumably earn enough revenue to be satisfied, whereas all the special snowflakes like Vogel and co like to bitch about how shit the platforms are (and I'll bet that Square Enix's overheads are a magnitude higher than Vogel's, before you start claiming that they have deeper pockets - with great cash comes a great need to earn enough to make it worth your while).

I'm not saying theres a conspiracy, I'm saying that theres a bunch of whining tools that don't want to create games that work on mobile and play well on the platform, with appropriate UI etc, and instead want to complain how its not as easy as they thought it would be to grab all that lovely cash off what they presume are an unsophisticated casual crowd who'll lap up whatever shit they deign to send their way.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Actually one of the problem is that people who play on mobile usually don't spend much time gathering information about the upcoming games. There is very little specialized press coverage(you have Pocket Tactics, and that's about it), and a huge number of new games to check. Marketting your game for mobile is very hard now.
That said, some developers had pretty good experience with hardcore or semi hardcore mobiles games :
Slitherine for instance, seems quite eager to release most of their new games for mobiles too (and some of their older ones), while 2K is not doing too bad now that it sticks to a pay2play model (where you buy the game, and not tons of meaningless micro DLC). The computerized board game sector is much stronger on mobile than on PC (but most iOS board gamers are also table top gamers, and are used to spend some time researching their games, and don't mind paying more than the iOS average, as it is much below the tabletop price average).
So basically, it all comes down to whether the developer has a good way to reach its target audience on mobile, as it is even more cut throat that the PC market (I think the ratio of titles that are in the money is lower, so you'd rather be sure you found a good way to sell yours).
On top of that, you cannot use kickstarter or early access for mobiles (well, KS sort of works, but then, you I think you cannot offer the game as rewards for iOS, which kind of defeat the purpose).
 

tuluse

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I disagree. There are development teams that are trying their best on mobile - on android, you have the Trese brothers and also Little Killerz (the Tales of Illyria games). Both these teams are developing solid rpgs, albeit with less polish than we'd expect to see in the PC market. This is simply because they need to get more experience in what they're doing, and polish their delivery as they do so.
Tales of Illyria has sold even worse than Shadowrun Dragonfall. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ep2.littlekillerz.ringstrail&hl=en

1-5k sales and $5 asking price.

Templar assault at $3 per copy sold 10-50k

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tresebrothers.games.templarselite

Both of these devs are also preparing to port their games to PC.
 

Kattze

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I think you have to read between the lines a little.

My impression is that porting the games to tablets was originally seen as an easy way to grab money from mobile gamers, and it was done with a view to do as little work as possible in terms of changing the UI and gameplay mechanics to best fit tablets.
.

No, maybe for Android his ports were half assed, but Vogel has been developing for the Mac since he began in the 90s. In fact, he always released hsi games for the Mac first, then PC. If he isn't doing it, it is because he really has reasons not to, like he has already detailed. And they are sound. The iOS update breaks his engine, and he doesn't see it worthwhile to recode.

Does anyone know if the iPad port affects Mac development too; I'm assuming iOS is the same system used in apple tablets and macs? (I know shit about Mac as you can tell)
 

thesoup

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:lol: This comes from the guy that disabled door closing in all versions of AFTP because he couldn't make it work on iOS and he felt that if ipadders can't have it, nobody should have it.

He has done some incredible crpg work, but he needs to make Spiderweb an actual developing studio if he is to survive the future. He desperately needs an artist and probably another programmer.
Truly a man who knows his audience.:salute:
 

Loriac

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Our favorite bearded-hobo/middle-aged indie game developer has had a change of heart about selling his rehashed games on iOS:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/age-pleasing-apple-and-trying-to-climb.html

Turns out it was because he's become too old and didn't have the energy left in him around the time of the release of Crystal Souls on iOS.

Reading between the lines a bit, it sounds to me like he suffered some kind of mid-life crisis type event rather than failing health (which would be fairly unusual these days for someone who's only 45 according to his blog). However, I have to say that his blog makes him sound like a whining pussy; 45 isn't old in this day and age, and if you take proper care of yourself you can reasonably expect not to hit any kind of serious health issues until you're well into your 60s, unless you rolled really unluckily on life's genetic lottery.
 

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