Someone tell me what the fuck is so special about Daggerfall

[Twinfalls]

Wow, interesting. This has become a bit of a 'I hate Daggerfall' self-help catharsis session.

I'm a bit surprised at how few people here seem to be able to enjoy the game for what it is - its only VD and a couple of others. The other, non-retard contributions to this thread are exemplified by Section8 and Zomg's point of view, namely 'it's worth lies mainly in what it could have been'.

I will just make one 'argument to popularity'. Daggerfall is much sought-after - check its ebay price at any given time. This is the type of lasting popularity which is completely unlike the hype-fuelled sales figures of crap upon their release. Halo will not be sought after like Daggerfall, in 10 years.

And the reason for this is clear. Its the only 'huge world' RPG out there. Nothing else does what it does, or even tries. And I'd say its popular because it achieves it principal aims in that regard. Not without some big, fat flaws, sure. But to say its worth lies only in possibilities, is to disregard the evidence.

 

[bryce777]

Well, it is the ultimate powergaming game. Also, the werewolf stuff was cool, and the vampire stuff,a nd the daedra lord summoning.

It was a good game overall, and the random quests were pretty impressive, but just so long with not much reward that it got old.

 

[kingcomrade]

I never got it to install and run properly, so I don't like Daggerfall either.

 

[Twinfalls]

Also I find it hard to understand why so few of you can appreciate the quality of the MQ, with its branching plot design and sophisticated intrigues and backstories.

 

[Romanian_Dude2005]

Mea culpa, I didn't play wasteland or dungeon master, but I saw alot of reviews which stated that Daggerfall was the first one to implement this system. I guess they ment that Daggerfall "mainstreamed" the training system or something like that.

@Twinfalls - The storyline was pretty original IMO and well worked out, the only downsides were the numerous bugs that prevented me from finishing it several times and the fact that the 6 endings don't have anything to do with the chooices and path your charracter follows, they are neutral to the rest of the storyline. Besides that I realy enjoyed the MQ, I would give it a 9.2

 

[WouldBeCreator]

I will just make one 'argument to popularity'. Daggerfall is much sought-after - check its ebay price at any given time. This is the type of lasting popularity which is completely unlike the hype-fuelled sales figures of crap upon their release. Halo will not be sought after like Daggerfall, in 10 years.

I'm not sure that argument is right. A few points for why it might not be:

(1) Price is determined by demand, but also also by supply. To the extent that Daggerfall shipped relatively fewer copies than other games (for example, far fewer than Halo did) and to the extent many people may have just tossed their CDs if they got sick of the game, a high price may be more indicative of small supply than it is of high demand. (Indeed, note that the first ebay seller refers to the game as "rare.")

(2) The demand may reflect fans of Morrowind and Oblivion who want to go back and play the earlier games. For example, this vendor -- -- priminently identifies Daggerfall as "Excellent 1st Person RPG - prequel to Morrowind." The same identifier is used by this seller -- -- "Bethesda's award winning Rpg set in the world of Tamriel and prequel to Morrowind."

Therefore, to the extent you guys slam Morrowind / Oblivion fans as shmucks who just get their parents to pay for whatever they want, your argument from popularity may fail, since the popularity in this case may be within a population you despise.

(3) Other games of comparable vintage that had greater supplies are nevertheless pricier. For example, Final Fantasy 7 seems to sell in the $65-$80 range. But surely FF7 ought not to be well-regarded as an RPG?

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Actually, its enough if something is rare to be expensive.
Nevermind how shitty it is, if its rare enough it will achieve a relativly high prise.
I'm not saying Daggefall is shitty but the ebay thing is not really a good argument.

 

[Xi]

I'm going to go with the Nostaligc debate. It was way ahead of its time. In 1996 there was simply nothing else like it.(Barely anything in modern times too!) So, when most of us played it back then we got that sense of Awe that nothing else could offer. Hence that nostalgic feeling that can't ever be recreated for the most part.

The game accomplished a lot for its time too. I hate to sound like the TES forum, but I think TES has always been about imagination. You have to dream about the illusion it offers, in your head, or you will quickly see how limiting it truely is. The only real depth the game offered was through its main quest(I'll admit I never actually beat it though!), everything else had that random generated feeling. This worked for a while but ultimately got frustrating.

Bethesda only needs to expand on Daggerfall to create the ultimate RPG experience in my eyes. It's a shame that they have changed there philosophies and target audience sense its release.

With Daggerfall their aim was to create the "Ultimate PnP video gaming experience." This has changed to "Live another life in another world" sense Morrowind's conception. This is why the games are so fundamentally different even though they attempt to offer something very similar.

 

[Section8]

With Daggerfall their aim was to create the "Ultimate PnP video gaming experience." This has changed to "Live another life in another world" sense Morrowind's conception. This is why the games are so fundamentally different even though they attempt to offer something very similar.

I could deal with "Life another life in another world", and looking back, Morrowind did a reasonable job of this. And when I say reasonable, I mean clearly better than Oblivion, but not particularly special.

Morrowind created a fairly plausible (if horribly dull and boring) world, in which the player had freedom to do all sorts of dull and boring things.

Oblivion made a couple of the main aspects a bit more interesting (combat, stealth) but completely fucked the sense of a plausible world, so you're a long way from the ideal of "living another life".

Hey! Anyone remember the "Gauntlet" style missions in space combat sims, where you'd start out against a single weak enemy, and the mission would keep spawning steadily stronger enemies? Oblivion is like that, except... you get increasingly tougher too, so there's never any sense of accomplishment or challenge. Oops.

God, someone sweep this hobbled chimaera of a design-by-committee monstrosity under the rug already. I'm having Derek Smart flashbacks.*

* But at least Derek Smart was just one guy fighting an uphill battle against an overly ambitious design, as opposed to a multimillion dollar AAA project that fucking well should have done better.

 

[Xi]

I could deal with "Life another life in another world", and looking back, Morrowind did a reasonable job of this. And when I say reasonable, I mean clearly better than Oblivion, but not particularly special.

I still prefer the "Ultimate PnP Video Gaming Experience." These philosophical design changes are what seems to have driven the series in a different direction.

Daggerfall was just a huge game. Even after years of playing it, I still run into new things or have some odd experience with it. It's a rewarding experience if you play it long enough. There's a sense of accomplishment unlike most other games and the crazy part is that there's still a lot more you can do. Too many things to do(even though most of it is similar - random generation). I liked Morrowind too, but mostly for its alien atmosphere. It was a nice departure from modern fantasy for a change. Cyrodiil just seems like more of the same.

God, someone sweep this hobbled chimaera of a design-by-committee monstrosity under the rug already. I'm having Derek Smart flashbacks.*

I think Daggerfall is both similar to BattleCruiser Millenium and the X series. Both of these types of games are only rewarding and worth while if you are willing to sink enough time into them. The real fun only starts after you have spent hours developing your legions of ships/trade routes/piracy/whatever. In the beginning it's merely the frustrating struggle to survive(Similar to Daggerfall depending on your character build). So after you have accomplished enough suddenly the games open up and you realize your place.

These are games that you can play longer then MMORPGs. Seriously. I think someone had logged 43Days of solid play time into X3:Reunion last time I had checked. If Derek Smart wanted to do something good for his series he would redesign the control schemes to be more accesible to the casual gamer.(BCM series) I suppose the hardcore crowd loves it(and these are games for the hardcore only) but it would really make them more accessible in a good way. Daggerfall, luckily, was not plagued with bad control schemes.

It was the sheer size of the universes that you were in that creates the beautiful illusion of reality that most other games never will. There is far more then the surface will lead you to believe but you can only know this by spending enough time and exploring. Invest the time and you will fall in love with them.

(Something like that)

 

[Section8]

I think Daggerfall is both similar to BattleCruiser Millenium and the X series. Both of these types of games are only rewarding and worth while if you are willing to sink enough time into them.

It also depends on what you want to get out of them. I admit that I persisted through the fairly dull X:Tension 2.1 for a long time in the hopes of getting myself a TL, but it occured to me that it was ultimately just an achievement, and from what I'd read about the functions of a TL, it wasn't really going breathe much new life into the game. So I reinstalled Freespace 2 instead, and played that.

The problem with the "rewards" the games offer, is that they're only compelling if you really want them to be. They're like high scores, 100% completion tracking and such like. The reward they offer is bragging rights.

To quote you a bit out of order:

These are games that you can play longer then MMORPGs.

I can't really agree with that. The most important difference is that firstly those "bragging right" rewards are put into a social context and the second important difference is that those same social elements represent a constant source of potential unpredictability, something a single player game wil find very difficult to maintain over time.

Another point of note is that just about every MMOG has a live team constantly adding content to the game.

Basically, the sort of game models we're talkign about here are offline MMOGs, and I can't see how a lack of social interaction extends the play time of a game, unless the entire subscriber base are complete fuckups.

The real fun only starts after you have spent hours developing your legions of ships/trade routes/piracy/whatever. In the beginning it's merely the frustrating struggle to survive(Similar to Daggerfall depending on your character build). So after you have accomplished enough suddenly the games open up and you realize your place.

It all depends on if your place in the world is interesting. Industrialism in X:Tension didn't really excite me, but from the profits I fitted myself out with the best fighter I could buy, and went hunting Xenon ships. That was amusing for a while, but not enough to keep me interested.

My desire to have a place in an imaginary world is pretty closely related to how much I enjoy the bread and butter gameplay that place affords me.

It was the sheer size of the universes that you were in that creates the beautiful illusion of reality that most other games never will. There is far more then the surface will lead you to believe but you can only know this by spending enough time and exploring. Invest the time and you will fall in love with them.

Well, again, escapism only really works for me if I enjoy it more than what I'm escaping from.

You could have a game that creates a beautiful illusion of reality to the degree of The Matrix, but unless it offers more potential for amusement than my day to day life in the real world, what's the point of plugging in?

 

[Roqua]

For me, it was the character generator. I have yet to see another with so much option and customability to it. I liked the game because I wanted to see how well the character I created did. Simple as that.

 

[Mefi]

The character development system is superb. And for me that goes a hell of a long way to making a good RPG. A retarded development system (*cough* Obliviion) ruins any other good points a game may have.

There are 10 million things wrong with Daggerfall. But it still floats my boat. There are better RPGs but not too many.

 

[Keldryn]

Wow, interesting. This has become a bit of a 'I hate Daggerfall' self-help catharsis session.

I'm a bit surprised at how few people here seem to be able to enjoy the game for what it is - its only VD and a couple of others. The other, non-retard contributions to this thread are exemplified by Section8 and Zomg's point of view, namely 'it's worth lies mainly in what it could have been'.

And the reason for this is clear. Its the only 'huge world' RPG out there. Nothing else does what it does, or even tries. And I'd say its popular because it achieves it principal aims in that regard. Not without some big, fat flaws, sure. But to say its worth lies only in possibilities, is to disregard the evidence.

I do appreciate what Daggerfall tries to do. I realize that no other games try to pull off a world of this scale. I just don't think that Daggerfall really succeeds in doing so. That doesn't make my criticisms of the game "retarded." I don't hate Daggerfall. It does succeed on a few fronts. However, I still think it is fundamentally flawed in its execution, and "good intentions" and "trying hard" aren't going to make me think it is a well-designed game.

The fact that Daggerfall has such a huge world... hundreds of dungeons, thousands of towns, tens of thousands of NPCs... means as much to me as modern marketing on the back of RPG games. "Over 200 magic spells! More than 60 unique monsters! Customize your character with more than 150 different weapons!" Big numbers aren't that impressive in and of themselves. And it is Daggerfall's immense scope that makes it feel so repetitive and soulless, in my opinion. It doesn't feel lovingly hand-crafted by designers who have an emotional investment in the game. Most of the game feels like the impersonal result of computer algorithms for randomly generating content -- which of course, most of the game is. It's ambitious, it's different, and it is awesome in scope. But that doesn't make it good, in my opinion. And that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate what they tried to do. I just don't think they pulled it off convincingly.

 

[Twinfalls]

I just don't think that Daggerfall really succeeds in doing so. That doesn't make my criticisms of the game "retarded."

It's not a confilcting viewpoint which I labeled retarded, it was certain types of posts, namely those of the ilk of the OP's, and this one:

Morrowind was better than Daggerfall.

And I hate everything TES.

The fact that Daggerfall has such a huge world... hundreds of dungeons, thousands of towns, tens of thousands of NPCs... means as much to me as modern marketing on the back of RPG games. "Over 200 magic spells! More than 60 unique monsters! Customize your character with more than 150 different weapons!"

That is a seriously mistaken characterisation. Daggerfall's 'big world' was not designed purely with marketing or commerce in mind. It was part and parcel of what the creators wanted to make. And it remains to this day the only game which even tries this, let alone whether or not it 'succeeded' (to me it did).

One needs only to read interviews with Ted Peterson to realise that quite plainly, its makers were nothing like the cynical bunch of goons who've taken over Bethesda since that time.

Big numbers aren't that impressive in and of themselves. And it is Daggerfall's immense scope that makes it feel so repetitive and soulless, in my opinion. It doesn't feel lovingly hand-crafted by designers who have an emotional investment in the game.

I don't think you've really played it enough. There is plenty of emotional investment by the designers which is plainly apparent. Check out the backstory, lore, the number of individual quests, the variety in architecture across the provinces.

 

[Limorkil]

I think Daggerfall is superb, particularly for 10 years ago. It had its faults, notably the too-huge dungeons coupled with the very poor automap. I keep a 6 year old PC around because it has Windows 98 and Daggerfall installed. To be honest, Daggerfall does not hold my attention for as long as other games - a problem with allowing the player to go wherever they want and in any order.

The main problem I see is that people's perceptions of video games have changed over the last 10 years. Now you can expect somewhat realistic graphics, voice acting etc. To some extent, games leave very little to the imagination. This sort of goes hand in hand with the laziness and complacency of people. Basically, many people today expect to be spoon fed story, plot lines and direction rather than having to "think about it". Even many of the wonderful people who frequent RPG Codex are like this. Apparently, a good RPG has to involve multiple choices and solutions, but served in a way that does not tax the imagination or intellect too hard.

I am not saying Daggerfall delivered. It is not perfect by any means. But I do like the concept of giving the player a vague push but then letting him do whatever he likes. If I have to point to one single thing about Daggerfall that I think was brilliant it would be the main story. Not only are there six different endings based on which faction you choose (sounds better than it works in game - the idea was good), but it is the sort of "murder mystery" storyline that goes well with an open ended game. Contrast it with Morrowind and, particularly, Oblivion, where the more in-your-face plots do not sit logically with the "join all the guilds and do all the side quests" play style that is meant to be the core of the game.

Ever since Daggerfall came out there have been people that totally loved it and people that totally hated it. So a post asking what is so special about Daggerfall is nothing new. I can see why people hate it, in the same way that I can see why some people prefer movies to books.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

I can see why people hate it, in the same way that I can see why some people prefer movies to books.

There is really nothing more assinine than claiming that people don't like one game over another because they're not sophisticated. In some rare, rare situations you might be able to make out a case. But the notion that enjoyment of a open-ended dungeon-crawler is predicated on one's sophistication and imagination is totally ridiculous, and the suggestion that Daggerfall is like a "book" and other games like a "movie" even more so. My beef with Daggerfall is simply that the act of playing wasn't very much fun. The dungeons were tedious, the combat was tedious, the quests were stereotyped, the writing was weak, the majority of the content was uninteresting, etc. I suppose you're right that if I could've imagined I was playing a fun game while I was playing Daggerfall, maybe I wouldn't enjoyed myself more; the same, of course, would be true for Oblivion.

The sooner people get off their high horses about how their game tastes equate with intelligence or sophistication, the better. In some rare cases, you can make an argument that enjoying a game involves some special mental capacity. (For example, I think enjoying Civilization requires a type of brain that I don't have, in the same way that enjoying accounting requires a type of brain that I don't have. Likewise, enjoying Planescape: Torment requires a degree of patience and an enjoyment in reading fantasy, bot of which I did have when I played the game.) But by and large, the most talented / best-educated / smartest people I know who play games play three things: (1) Madden football; (2) shooters; and (3) old-school NES style games (and their SNES/GBA/DS successors). Only one or two play RPGs at all. So I find the argument that people don't like Game X because they're too stupid, or enjoy Game Y because they're so sophisticated, pretty idiotic.

 

[sheek]

Daggerfall is for losers.

 

[Jason]

sheek is for lovers.

 

[elander_]

I have a similar experience with Ultima 7. When i played it looked a lot like the solitude of playing Oblivion. Even the one word retarded dialog sentences are there. The funny thing is i loved Ultima 4 when i played it on my Amiga about 10+ years ago. About a year ago i installed Ultima 7 with the emulator and tried to play it. The dialog part and quest solving is well done but it felt beaten by games like Gothic and Baldurs Gate. Quests are more elaborated than many Daggerfall quests but these were made for role-playing most of all. You can pick a certain background, advantage / disadvantage even if you answer the chargen questionary a certain way this will impact slightly on the gameplay in the future and how the templated quests will work. Reputation, factions, world events everything had influence on templated quests available on guilds. Ultima 7 is more like Gothic while Daggerfall is more like Fallout with an enfasis on delivering a game for role-players and Daggerfall was also a great game for dungeon crawlers who enjoyed games like NetHack, Dungeon Master, Eye of The Beholder, etc.

The only problem with Daggerfall was that it felt short and there were no sub-plots in the game besides those in the main quests that was very interesting but horrible to role-players and non-dungeon-crawlers. There are quests in Daggerfall way better than Ultima 7 tutorial quest and that adapt themselfs slightly to the circunstances to help role-playing. For example the quest where you have to investigate a crime where someone disguised as yourself has commited a murder. Unfortunately there were only a couple of quests as elaborated as these. Besides that Daggerfall was much more free to play than any other TES games. Don't like a quest ? Refuse it and ask for another. You are not given enough info to know if you want the quest? Acept and leave it if you don't enjoy it. There are allways more quests to try.

However without gameplay Daggerfall wasn't so great. The game is very fun to play as a pure thief or dungeon crawler adventurer. However it's cassic game balance. You can only kill one / two monsters at a time before resting. Leveling up is slow. Raising in rank in guilds requires one game month per rank. When you start you fight with an iron sword or your bare hands and for a long time there will be enemies in dungeons you can't possibly beat and make you run lost like a bunny. It's not a game for pussies.

I think the same thing you people say about Fallout applies to Daggerfall too. Keep the original gameplay and add more creative content. Add more gameplay if you must but evolve over the old. Add better graphics, improve generation algorithms like they did with Oblivion terrain but apply it for towns and dungeons, add more elaborated templated quests, more character reactions, add more world events, add more unique characters, but leave everything else the same. That is don't dumb down chargen like they did with modern TES games, add more skills and more purpose for it not less, add more guilds to the world not less, etc Then you have true evolution of what Daggerfall promised.

True that a lot of people hated Daggerfall, the same way a lot of people hated Fallout. The point is Daggerfall was a very focused game not a streamlined shit made to please everyone without any gameplay. If you don't like it then don't bother yourself with it. It is a game for hardcore role-players and dungeon crawlers.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

I really don't see the analogy between Fallout and Daggerfall, but that's probably because I'm a "pussy" who only likes "streamlined shit." Your computer role-playing game tastes, on the other hand, are impeccable, largely because of your virile masculinity.

 

[elander_]

I really don't see the analogy between Fallout and Daggerfall, but that's probably because I'm a "pussy" who only likes "streamlined shit." Your computer role-playing game tastes, on the other hand, are impeccable, largely because of your virile masculinity.

Oh god have i hit a Ultima 7 player nerve? I may not enjoy your pet game or consider it a rpg but i respect the fun others have with their games. I never wrote "pussies" in the context that people who enjoy streamlined games are pussies and i never wrote that all streamlined games are shit either and you are a dumbfuck.

You guys like to speak the hard truth don't you? The hard truth to me is that Ultima 7 is barely a crpg when compared to Fallout or Daggerfall. Gothic is more of a crpg than Ultima 7. I guess that some people like their role-playing a bit more tempered and im not realy in the mood or have time to discuss that part even with inteligent arguments if you have any.

Fallout has a lot to do with Daggerfall and is also very different. The similarities have to do with role-playing. Both games were made for role-players but they toke completely different paths to achieve that.

PS: I have to say that if you want to experience Daggerfall properly these days you may not have patience for the classic game balance that is traditionaly very hard or the dungeon survival gameplay or the very slow char progression. It's better that you use cheats to jump to the special dungeon locations or to get daedric weapons from the start.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/elder ... fall/hints

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Oh god have i hit a Ultima 7 player nerve? I may not enjoy your pet game or consider it a rpg but i respect the fun others have with their games. I never wrote "pussies" in the context that people who enjoy streamlined games are pussies and i never wrote that all streamlined games are shit either and you are a dumbfuck.

Oooh! The level of discourse gets even higher. You must've had an "enfasis" on rhetoric in your education. No loss that you won't share any "inteligent" arguments, since your take-downs are so awesome.

As it happens, I don't particularly like Ultima VII. As I've said elsewhere, I found the inventory management absurd, the weird way it did isometric graphics unnerving, and the dialogue tedious (both in its system and in its writing). I could care less what you think about Ultima VII, and, truth is, I could care less what you think about anything. But your Daggerfall : Fallout comparison is the dumbest thing I've read on a forum often plagued by idiots, so it was worth calling out.

Daggerfall is a sprawling first-person action-based hack n' slash RPG with most of its content randomly, haphazardly generated, with no meaningful character interaction, a crappy story, and a hackneyed setting. Sold as akin to a FPS, it was hocked by people at a LAN gaming spot I occasionally played at in pre-Internet days as "like Quake with magic," which, will idiotic, sheds a little light on how "focused" it was at the RPG crowd.

Fallout is a small, carefully hand-crafted third person turn-based RPG. The dialogue is sharp, the characters are memorable. Quests are designed to be solved in multiple ways. Combat is optional.

Although there is a fair amount of crossover among fans of the games, to say that Fallout is more like Daggerfall than it is like Ultima VII is silly. Ultima VII shares Fallout's core values (a variety of gameplay, a focus on characters and story, etc.). Daggerfall shares more in common with Diablo, frankly, since they share a common root in Nethack.

As for the contention that Daggerfall permits roleplaying, I suppose that's true if what you want to roleplay is a guy who likes to join clubs and kill rats in people's basements. You've got a lot of choice of clubs and basements, though, so it takes all kinds.

My recollection is that I got about halfway through Daggerfall. I ultimately quit when I jumped down a hole, saved over my game, and subsequently discovered I had no way out (lacking levitation). (Which does establish I'm an idiot, I suppose.)

 

[sheek]

The only thing that needed to be said in this thread is that 'dungeon crawls' have always been the worst aspect of RPGs. They were crap in PnP and crap in video games. The reason they exist is because of laziness... lazy PnP designers and lazy software companies. They appealed to people with nothing else to do with their lives (outcast teenagers, unemployed people etc) except waste time. Daggerfall comes 100% from that dungeon crawl 'RPG' tradtion while Fallout aspires to the best of traditional roleplaying (character-world interaction, multiple ways to solve problems etc).

I don't think Fallout is the best game ever but compared to Daggerfall it's in a completely different league.

 

[Zomg]

Dungeon crawling is a descendant of the P&P ur-pleasure... drawing corridors on graph paper. We've lost our way, going with these free look and free move abominations like Arena; only the discrete step length crawler recalls the holy graph.