Someone decent at statistics needed -- help debunk Lhynn's claim

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Good question, i remember having a cape of flight, an intelligent longsword +4 that allowed me to jump between shadows, a band of healing with 3 charges of heal, a kevlar full body armor , an M16. I think it was a ring, and it was 50% MR. When i get home ill look for my character sheet (or sheets, as i played him in like 3-4 campaigns, and countless oneshot stories).

I know it's common for DMs to take pity on fighters and give them artifacts so they feel like they're in the same league as the rest of the party, but this is the most ridiculous case of that I've ever seen.

According to the site Night Goat linked, solars are immune to weapons of less than +5 enchantment. If you were able to defeat a solar with that character at that level either the DM let you win on purpose or is woefully retarded.
Seriously

A solar has spells as a 15th-level priest with major access to all spheres. In addition to the powers common to aasimon, solars have the following spell-like powers: animate object (3 times per day), antipathy/sympathy (3 times per day), astral spell (once per day), commune, confusion (3 times per day), control weather, creeping doom (once per day), dispel evil, dispel magic, Drawmij’s instant summons, earthquake (3 times per day), finger of death (once per day), fire storm (once per day), heal, holy word (3 times per day), imprisonment (once per day), improved invisibility,infravision (240 feet, always active), mass charm (3 times per day), permanency (3 times per day), polymorph any object or self (once per day), power word (any variety, once per day), prismatic spray (once per day), restoration (once per day), resurrection (3 times per day), shape change (3 times per day), symbol (any variety, 3 times per day), vanish (3 times per day), vision (once per day), wind walk (7 times per day), and wish (once per day).

plus the summons they get, all the immunities. I mean, perhaps this happened in your compaign like you said, but if I play that Solar I'll roflstomp you.

 

[Lhynn]

Good question, i remember having a cape of flight, an intelligent longsword +4 that allowed me to jump between shadows, a band of healing with 3 charges of heal, a kevlar full body armor , an M16. I think it was a ring, and it was 50% MR. When i get home ill look for my character sheet (or sheets, as i played him in like 3-4 campaigns, and countless oneshot stories).

I know it's common for DMs to take pity on fighters and give them artifacts so they feel like they're in the same league as the rest of the party, but this is the most ridiculous case of that I've ever seen.

According to the site Night Goat linked, solars are immune to weapons of less than +5 enchantment. If you were able to defeat a solar with that character at that level either the DM let you win on purpose or is woefully retarded.
Seriously

Thats the intelligent weapon i used to kill a god. Even with all the help of the dice it should have been impossible to even hurt it, let alone kill it under normal circumstances. Both confrontations were not planned by the DM, i was suposed to run the fuck away, the firt time letting an NPC party die. The second time (against the solar) was basically pointless, as it was to stop a ritual that that would suposedly "destroy" the weapon, a holy avenger, and gems that allowed elemental control. For what purpose, i did not know at the time, as i never asked my employer such questions, and it came as a surprise that it involved my sword as well. I fought to protect it as i rather liked the weapon.
It all ended up being for naught, the sword and all the items ended up empowered by the ritual, while at the same time releasing the vampire lord that was magically tied to his castle, and also freeing a demon with the form of a crow that was more than likely controlling the vampire lord (our employer).
After all my little rebellion was for naught, it cheated the party out of the pay (tho it didnt matter as we felt guilty enough after realizing what we had done) and i got to keep the holy avenger, that was supposedly a twin of my black sword, but i never got it to work. The stones had to stay at the site to keep the ritual working.

A solar has spells as a 15th-level priest with major access to all spheres. In addition to the powers common to aasimon, solars have the following spell-like powers: animate object (3 times per day), antipathy/sympathy (3 times per day), astral spell (once per day), commune, confusion (3 times per day), control weather, creeping doom (once per day), dispel evil, dispel magic, Drawmij’s instant summons, earthquake (3 times per day), finger of death (once per day), fire storm (once per day), heal, holy word (3 times per day), imprisonment (once per day), improved invisibility,infravision (240 feet, always active), mass charm (3 times per day), permanency (3 times per day), polymorph any object or self (once per day), power word (any variety, once per day), prismatic spray (once per day), restoration (once per day), resurrection (3 times per day), shape change (3 times per day), symbol (any variety, 3 times per day), vanish (3 times per day), vision (once per day), wind walk (7 times per day), and wish (once per day).

plus the summons they get, all the immunities. I mean, perhaps this happened in your compaign like you said, but if I play that Solar I'll roflstomp you.

Sure, if the solar had time to prepare. But it was all unexpected, i surprised it, i put in enough damage for it to actually take me seriously enough to use his arrows of slaying, but i was aware of what he could do so i didnt let him use it. He wasted his first round, his second round he wanted to take my head, i parried with my secondary weapon while praying for it not to cut my head off. By the third round the creature fell before it could ever heal up.
We used very different, deadly rules for combat with weapons. i posted a link for NG some posts back but that wasnt quite it. we used a similar version thats on spanish. I thought they were the same until i read a bit more indepth, they are extremely similar tho, from the chances to learn, to the costs, to the idea of weapon having different abilities at different mastery levels, to finally the ability to block with weapons.

http://www.oocities.org/area51/6577/maestria.htm

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

heal, windwalk, polymorph any object or self (! trololo) , wish, shapechange, vanish, holy word and so on and so forth and your level 7 fighter killed a solar aasimon within 3 combat rounds. Splendid. Riveting tale ol' chap.
I know it sounds crazy but a solar can indeed just teleport away and shoot his slaying arrows from a safe distance. No matter, in a campaign where low-level fighters are slaying Gods ( I take it that God also forgot his plenty abilities) I guess it's perfectly normal to kill some random solars along the way.

 

[TigerKnee]

When did this become "D&D with Cleve Blakemore"?

 

[Lhynn]

heal, windwalk, polymorph any object or self (! trololo) , wish, shapechange, vanish, holy word and so on and so forth and your level 7 fighter killed a solar aasimon within 3 combat rounds. Splendid. Riveting tale ol' chap.
I know it sounds crazy but a solar can indeed just teleport away and shoot his slaying arrows from a safe distance. No matter, in a campaign where low-level fighters are slaying Gods ( I take it that God also forgot his plenty abilities) I guess it's perfectly normal to kill some random solars along the way.

Hm, he wasnt counting on me getting in so many heavy hits i guess. As i said, it caught him unprepared, the fallen solar there was just to intimidate us. On a straight up fight with some preparation, then sure, all he needed was to get off a single attack round with his bow from a distance and the entire party was wiped. But there he was, literally an angel, what threat could a lone human possibly pose?

As for the god episode, it was more like me getting tru his defenses after passing 7 death saving throws, then hitting his heart with both my swords on natural 20s. He had just been released and his weak spot was in a "vulnerable" state. you only had to to navigate a storm of purple rays of death akin to finger of death spell, then get tru a defensive wall formed by thousands of small floating spheres surrounding him in every direction, and hit a target the size of a thumb, with a weapon actually capable of harming it.

Im not saying i could kill those creatures any day of the week with that character, im saying an incredible amount of luck was with me on those particular episodes, and they make for good stories. As the DM was honestly doing his best to either make us flee or outright kill us.

 

[Beowulf]

Man, If I were you, I wouldn't be afraid standing in a puddle during thunderstorm, preaching about the advantages of atheists way of life. You should seriously consider buying lottery ticket.

 

[Kane]

The odds of a natural 18 with 3d6 are (1/6)^3 = 1/216 = 0,4629%.

I was assuming a single 18 sided die (my memory regarding the dice roll rules in D&D is pretty hazy). If you throw 3 dices independently from each other 1/6^3 is correct (which you don't b/c there are multiple combinations of dice rolls with the same value).

 

[Kz3r0]

My relevant contribution:

 

[Delterius]

> it happened 8+ years ago dude

You being 12 does explain some things.

> Guy rolls all 18s from home help me debunk it

 

[Lhynn]

> it happened 8+ years ago dude

You being 12 does explain some things.

> Guy rolls all 18s from home help me debunk it

i was 21 at the time. But details are iffy at best. Which leads me to the question, why the fuck would i lie?

 

[Snorkack]

The odds of a natural 18 with 3d6 are (1/6)^3 = 1/216 = 0,4629%.

I was assuming a single 18 sided die (my memory regarding the dice roll rules in D&D is pretty hazy). If you throw 3 dices independently from each other 1/6^3 is correct (which you don't b/c there are multiple combinations of dice rolls with the same value).

Yes, I actually took that into account already. But as darkpatriot already pointed out I was working under the wrong premise anyways and dun goof'd.

 

[Excidium II]

> it happened 8+ years ago dude

You being 12 does explain some things.

> Guy rolls all 18s from home help me debunk it

i was 21 at the time. But details are iffy at best. Which leads me to the question, why the fuck would i lie?

To impress the girls

 

[Daemongar]

As the DM was honestly doing his best to either make us flee or outright kill us.

Those whom the gods would destroy, they first give artifact swords and magic resistance to.

However, I ran some numbers. His system appears to be:
* Roll 4 dice, keep 3
* All 1's are re-rolled
* Seven total rolls for a character, keep 6 highest.

To help in my experiment, I created a quick java program that would roll a number between 2-6 randomly four times, and feed that into an array, sort the array, and drop the lowest number roll[0], I had it do this 70,000 times. We now had 70,000 rolls of 4d6 - lowest with no ones. Next, this was looped to read in numbers seven at a time, drop the lowest, to create an array of 60,000 numbers. It would be like 10,000 characters - the lowest score for each would be dropped.

The results were written to a txt file, opened in excel, and examined. The results were:

So we can see that 18's are now about 2x more common than they were with a normal 4d6 system. The average score is 14, which is a lot better than a normal 4d6 average of 12.25. So, the odds of him rolling his character is a lot better, but this still doesn't explain the natural 100, or a Solar standing around with his thumb up his ass for 3 rounds.

 

[LeStryfe79]

My best by far was 18/96, 17, 18, 16, 16, 17 using 4d6 drop the lowest. Played a Paladin. Campaign lasted only 2 games. I don't remember the kit I used but his name was Cid Cedric.

 

[Lhynn]

So we can see that 18's are now about 2x more common than they were with a normal 4d6 system. The average score is 14, which is a lot better than a normal 4d6 average of 12.25. So, the odds of him rolling his character is a lot better, but this still doesn't explain the natural 100, or a Solar standing around with his thumb up his ass for 3 rounds.

The solar attacked me, he thought he could make quick work of me with the vorpal sword, after all i was just a dude, with no armor (didnt think id need it, as i wasnt planning to fight) and a sword. The roll of 100 is easy, i just rolled 100 and my DM just wanted to murder me.

As for magical items, last i heard There was no level requirement for gear in DnD and you did keep what you killed. It isnt as if i was flowing with magical shit. the band that went around my forearm was a gift from a high level cleric, the sword which i got from an old battlefield a few stories into the campaign, the ring (at least i think it was a ring) was found at the abandoned castle were we ended up fighting the god, the cape of flight (which was a gift from a powerful mage from a technologically advanced city) and i seem to remember also having a +2 sword that i used offhand and a masterwork sword that i kept from my days of training and that i actually never got rid of and has been a staple of the character since it was first created, it has a name and everything. In his setting weak magical items didnt seem to exist, it was either powerful and rare or nothing, which isnt a bad approach tbh, weak magic items cheapen magic.

 

[King Crispy]

Is all D&D gameplay in South America this utterly retarded and broken?

 

[Lhynn]

Nope, it was his particular brand of DMing. Wouldnt call it retarded, but it was deliciously broken. One of the most fun campaigns ive played.
What i wonder is why you care so much, each table has their own homebrew, style and flavour, and his was very well done. As ive said before, he built an internally consistent world, maybe filled with pop culture crap, but internally consistent nontheless. his charactertization of the npcs was superb, you truly felt you were interacting with them. His ability to make very tense and demanding encounters was good, but the difficulty of most encounters was unfair, He killed every party member at least once, and most npcs were assholes.

Still, the guy i rolled lhynn with and the guy i played the campaign am telling you about are two different people. Both acquaintances. The guy i rolled lhynn with was a cool DM, he was mostly into straight up dungeon crawling.

 

[Azrael the cat]

There is an easier explanation, Llynn. Your DM decided to prioritise rewarding a player for role-playing in a story-heavy campaign over maintaining the consistency of the world.

Like most DMs, he does what the DM guides all suggest, and pretends that you won because of your amazing rolls/tactics, and that he 'totally wasn't expecting that to happen'. Hit points, saving throw targets and rolls get fudged, and the NPC mysteriously declines to use his abilities in any sensible fashion* because if the players know that the DM is fudging the encounter, then the game is ruined. Some DMs are utterly against doing this. Others do it all the fucking time. In a campaign, almost all DMs will do it (even if they don't want to) unless your group has a good system in place for handling PC deaths - if the result of a PC death is that a player has to sit out for multiple sessions, then real life social etiquette will trump gaming verisimilitude.

Depending on whether the campaign was story-heavy or a dungeon crawl, I'd consider letting a player kill a solar for story purposes as DM, but I'd have to make clear that it is very much the tabletop gaming equivalent of a jrpg cutscene. HP aren't a measure of how many wounds a NPC has, they're an abstraction of injury, fatigue, luck and everything else that goes into determining how long you can hold out until getting stabbed somewhere that matters (i.e. it isn't the accumulation of 32 paper-cuts that kills you, it's the 1 stab that nicks an artery). There's nothing wrong, in principle, with letting a player kill an NPC that he couldn't possibly defeat in rule-based combat, by treating it as a part of general world interaction (i.e. the DM is simply imposing that the Solar was looking in the other direction, was so focussed on the task at hand that his AC is effectively that of a sleeping infant, and that the blade severing his spinal cord is a matter of story instead of going to the dice).

What I wouldn't do, though, is pretend to the players that something so obviously inconsistent with the combat rules as a player killing a solar, is simply the outcome of the dice. That's the kind of bad DM-ing that completely destroys the player's trust that the combat system isn't being fudged or, far worse, leads to inane stories on rpg forums about 'that one time where I killed an undead beholder with my L7 fighter'.



*(like the Solar insta-teleporting to safety, using his restoration spell to instantly heal everything, then nuking the players' location from orbit, before getting his underling's underling's underling's underling (so, probably a L12-ish cleric) to check on the players' ashes. Then casting wish so he can sip pina coladas from a hammock surrounded by babes. Or, you know, just casting wish to deal with the pesky low-level player, then using restoration to heal, and a combination of wind-walk, charm and create food/drink so he can sip pina coladas from a hammock surrounded by babes. Or perhaps for lulz he might just use his L15-cleric spells instead of his spell-like abilities, before....you get the picture.)

 

[King Crispy]

I don't even understand why "Lhynn" was allowed to exist and participate in multiple campaigns. How can the DM of the next one verify any of the feats and successes that led to such an obesely powerful character, especially at such a low level? I would have taken one look at his character sheet and done a 20th-level No Country For Old Men look-over-my-DM-screen and asked, "You're kidding, right?"

We're just polar opposites, you and I, Lhynn. You can, even as a player, apparently easily let slide these types of gross manipulations and mockeries of the rules, whereas I'm the kind of person who craves and admires structure and fair gameplay.

Edit: Then again, I've only ever played D&D in a group environment once in my life, and it was, shall we say... unsatisfactory?

 

[Lhynn]

There is an easier explanation, Llynn. Your DM decided to prioritise rewarding a player for role-playing in a story-heavy campaign over maintaining the consistency of the world.

Like most DMs, he does what the DM guides all suggest, and pretends that you won because of your amazing rolls/tactics, and that he 'totally wasn't expecting that to happen'. Hit points, saving throw targets and rolls get fudged, and the NPC mysteriously declines to use his abilities in any sensible fashion* because if the players know that the DM is fudging the encounter, then the game is ruined. Some DMs are utterly against doing this. Others do it all the fucking time. In a campaign, almost all DMs will do it (even if they don't want to) unless your group has a good system in place for handling PC deaths - if the result of a PC death is that a player has to sit out for multiple sessions, then real life social etiquette will trump gaming verisimilitude.

I would agree, but all my STs were open, this is second edition we are talking about.

Depending on whether the campaign was story-heavy or a dungeon crawl, I'd consider letting a player kill a solar for story purposes as DM, but I'd have to make clear that it is very much the tabletop gaming equivalent of a jrpg cutscene. HP aren't a measure of how many wounds a NPC has, they're an abstraction of injury, fatigue, luck and everything else that goes into determining how long you can hold out until getting stabbed somewhere that matters (i.e. it isn't the accumulation of 32 paper-cuts that kills you, it's the 1 stab that nicks an artery). There's nothing wrong, in principle, with letting a player kill an NPC that he couldn't possibly defeat in rule-based combat, by treating it as a part of general world interaction (i.e. the DM is simply imposing that the Solar was looking in the other direction, was so focussed on the task at hand that his AC is effectively that of a sleeping infant, and that the blade severing his spinal cord is a matter of story instead of going to the dice).

Sure, but then what would be the point of me coming here and telling you about it? i hate DMs that do things like that. I should have clearly died both times, i didnt because of sheer dumb luck because i was stupid enough to try.

What I wouldn't do, though, is pretend to the players that something so obviously inconsistent with the combat rules as a player killing a solar, is simply the outcome of the dice. That's the kind of bad DM-ing that completely destroys the player's trust that the combat system isn't being fudged or, far worse, leads to inane stories on rpg forums about 'that one time where I killed an undead beholder with my L7 fighter'.

Who gives a shit? its fun to share those experiences.

*(like the Solar insta-teleporting to safety, using his restoration spell to instantly heal everything, then nuking the players' location from orbit, before getting his underling's underling's underling's underling (so, probably a L12-ish cleric) to check on the players' ashes. Then casting wish so he can sip pina coladas from a hammock surrounded by babes. Or, you know, just casting wish to deal with the pesky low-level player, then using restoration to heal, and a combination of wind-walk, charm and create food/drink so he can sip pina coladas from a hammock surrounded by babes. Or perhaps for lulz he might just use his L15-cleric spells instead of his spell-like abilities, before....you get the picture.)

Sure, he could also have gone into hidding for a couple years after the first round, then attacked me on my sleep when i lowered my guard, or better yet, just sent assassins after me for the rest of my natural life, resting comfortable knowing that him being an eternal spirit he would see me die one way or the other. We are talking about a divine creature running away from an ant here. He wasnt even facing a team legendary heroes, just some quick tempered human mercenary with a stick. Im not even sure solars can die, i think they just need time to reform, like a couple decades.

Want challenge? i can make kobolds challenging to a level 9 party, its not a hard thing to do with preparation.

I don't even understand why "Lhynn" was allowed to exist and participate in multiple campaigns. How can the DM of the next one verify any of the feats and successes that led to such an obesely powerful character, especially at such a low level? I would have taken one look at his character sheet and done a 20th-level No Country For Old Men look-over-my-DM-screen and asked, "You're kidding, right?"

We're just polar opposites, you and I, Lhynn. You can even as a player apparently easily let slide these types of gross manipulations and mockeries of the rules, whereas I'm the kind of person who craves and admires structure and fair gameplay.

Lhynn started both campaigns at lvl 1, without magical items of any kind. He was just a cool character i wanted to roleplay, after playing a mage for like 7 years i was ready to change it up a bit, and the DMs were kind enough to accommodate. On the part of his high stats, some people are smart enough to realize that if a campaign allows casters, no matter how high the fighters attributes are (within racial boundaries), it wont make much of a difference.

And how isnt thee structure and fair gameplay in any of the campaigns ive played? how can you even be sure there wasnt? is it so hard to accept that when you are rolling dice shit happens for good or bad? arent entire forums populated with threads of such deeds? are you fucking stupid?

 

[King Crispy]

are you fucking stupid?

You don't even want to go there, man. Beyond now being officially known as Codex' most ravenous munchkin, for reasons blindingly apparent ITT, you've also been caught basically lying and exhibiting behavior I wouldn't exactly consider to be anything but "fucking stupid":

- You make wild claims about "lucky" dice rolls that, even though they've been figured not to be as astronomically rare as originally calculated, are still so highly unlikely as to be dismissed as sheer fabrications

- You and your DM(s) have swung so wildly off-course when it comes to any semblance of D&D rules, their scope, their spirit, and their intent that I think it's better for you just to consider all those rp experiences you had to be some weird lucid dreams instead

- You're actually still defending all this shit.

 

[Lhynn]

are you fucking stupid?

You don't even want to go there, man. Beyond now being officially known as Codex' most ravenous munchkin, for reasons blindingly apparent ITT, you've also been caught basically lying and exhibiting behavior I wouldn't exactly consider to be anything but "fucking stupid":

What? are you retarded?

- You make wild claims about "lucky" dice rolls that, even though they've been figured not to be as astronomically rare as originally calculated, are still so highly unlikely as to be dismissed as sheer fabrications

Nevermind, got my answer, lestryfe got fairly close rolls to my own.

- You and your DM(s) have swung so wildly off-course when it comes to any semblance of D&D rules

Are you fucking retarded? homebrewing is common at any table with friends.

their scope

What does this even mean?

their spirit,

what is their spirit?

and their intent that I think it's better for you just to consider all those rp experiences you had to be some weird lucid dreams instead

Holy shit, you just wrote the single most retarded line in the entire thread. Retardo this shit for posterity.

- You're actually still defending all this shit.

Why wouldnt i? I had fun with my friends.

Crispy i honestly pity you, i see now why you have never found a woman, and why pretty much the entirety of the board laughs at you as often as it does, why you struggle so much for acceptance that will never fucking come. You are a joke mate. Done with the thread, if anyone wants details on my escapades (and i honestly dont see why anyone would give a shit, but i had a blast reliving the past) throw a PM or talk to me on the shitbox.

 

[King Crispy]

This is the part where Lhynn loses control.

Spoiler

Butthurt detected.

 

[Lhynn]

I didnt lose control, but i did go hiver on you. congrats on the troll.

 

[Delterius]

I get off numbers too but this fucking thread doesn't deserve this much effort.