Some questions from a storyfag who doesn't agree with other storyfags

[Raghar]

Emergent Narrative

He's improving. So it's best not to brush off his apparent insanity as a troll attempt so quickly.

He became literate, so obviously he improved from barely literate to literate. Too bad he ran away before he become educated.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't believe this sentient chatbot will give up on us so easily.

Related: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/No,_We_Need_a_Neural_Network.aspx

 

[kris]

Remember back when we used to read and write really long posts, then dissect them bit by bit?
I think that was in 2004-6.

Now you just need to say popamole a lot. Try it if you like, you will fit right in. I suggest also cursing a lot and mentioning you love piracy.

(Bad indigestion, sorry.)

I was there and I was one of them. I think the larger problem now is not only new posters with a short attention span, it is moreso that those interesting discussions have already been had. Either Mr Retinue has not participated in discussions like that or he have some sort of problem.

As for what I want? I want a discussion with storyfags. I could elaborate but I already elaborated. I'm a storyfag who has a problem with the vocal storyfags holding back and thus creating a community where the voices of the storyfag are either unheard or less so heard that people end up thinking different wordings of storyfag with the same definition sounds like they possess different meanings. The consequence being less storyfag threads that actually matter. Again, take Rarrr... said a bunch of words to clear up his/her thoughts. Good! Then what does she do? She deprives the reader of knowing what's lacking about the psychology of modern games.

Maybe it was obvious. Maybe it was simplistic. But 90% of the other fags are outspoken with gameplay, graphics, etc. etc. Vocal storyfags don't. It's as if they are afraid that what I am accused of now would happen to them. Yet they have the right to say they love games for their stories so much that they can act forgiving of the other aspects of the game? How?! )

See. You could just have posted the bolded part. The rest just hid that. This was your point and if anything you should just have started that discussion directly and concisely. Now it got diluted and confused. We have had discussion about these things though, plenty of times and on several subject areas.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Seriously Kris, Retinue's logorrhea is a bit more than merely confused and diluted. 2004 oldfag or not, if you can make sense out of that :

I'm a storyfag who has a problem with the vocal storyfags holding back and thus creating a community where the voices of the storyfag are either unheard or less so heard that people end up thinking different wordings of storyfag with the same definition sounds like they possess different meanings

you're damn good.

The only "discussion" this kind of nonsense can bring is a gigantic WTF ?

or he have some sort of problem.

I think that's more likely.

 

[EG]

I identify myself as a storyfag.
I believe I am of a repressed people.
Due to this repression, the community has little awareness of the plight of my people.
This community either does not know how to define my people or they apply incorrect definitions to them.

He might even be right about the definition -- look at the difference between Draq's and my own.

 

[laclongquan]

Look, we are the Codex. Being confused or mad or insane or attentionwhore is not necessary the bad points to us, certainly not enough to drive us away from your post. Witness the love-hate relationship we have with Andhaira, Prosper, and you-know-who-I-mean.

Being boring is a capital offense though.

Posting several wall of text with boring contents is one such thing.

Fix it or we will ignore you.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What do you mean by "boring"? Being boring, in my opinion, is to be uninteresting. Since being uninteresting is an undesirable quality, even more so in this globalized world we live in, I try to be interesting (in other words, the opposite of boring), but I'm afraid it does not work, since people do not see me as an interesting person to communicate with.

 

[EG]

What do you mean by "boring"? Being boring, in my opinion, is to be uninteresting. Since being uninteresting is an undesirable quality, even more so in this globalized world we live in, I try to be interesting (in other words, the opposite of boring), but I'm afraid it does not work, since people do not see me as an interesting person to communicate with.

[Serious] With you, Clockwork, we do not need to parse your rambling and irrelevant sentences into something coherent, over and over again, before being able to initiate pleasurable conversation.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I try to be interesting (in other words, the opposite of boring), but I'm afraid it does not work, since people do not see me as an interesting person to communicate with.

That's because try as you might, you ain't no storyfag.


EDIT :
Yes ! I finally realize the reason I chose to quote this particular piece of drivel :

I'm a storyfag who has a problem with the vocal storyfags holding back and thus creating a community where the voices of the storyfag are either unheard or less so heard that people end up thinking different wordings of storyfag

It's because it reminded me of this legendary post :

Does anyone know if there are any Arcanum mods where a wizard turns into a car? I'm looking for an Arcanum mod where a wizard turns into a car. If anyone knows of any Arcanum mods where a wizard turns into a car, please let me know, because I'm looking for an Arcanum mod where a wizard turns into a car.

Fuck, it still kills me.

 

[Sergiu64]

Well I lasted about 2 pages in. Feels like trying to have a "conversation" with a bipolar person in a manic phase. And by conversation I mean them talking incoherently at you real fast and jumping topics without any logical connection between them.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

At least something doog came out of Retinue's incomprehensible bullshit about jrpgs. I felt like searching for pics to forget that wall of text.

http://deificwolf.deviantart.com/art/LiA-78-Fiona-s-Failed-Forest-264470396

http://deificwolf.deviantart.com/art/Indiscriminate-Recruitment-213414842

http://deificwolf.deviantart.com/art/Frog-in-Need-Frog-Indeed-263163917

fake edit: that should be "something good", but I refuse to correct it

 

[JarlFrank]

I disagree here. I think you could make an RPG without skill development as long as it would feature meaningful character creation options.

Most games do just fine without XPs and level ups. The defining feature of RPGs is their adaptability, masturbation through incrementation is just something tacked on.

I'd love to see sensible skill improvement system, but static stats wouldn't be half bad.

Also, gameplay can, and should be changed to facilitate immersion, so being an all-out immersionfag isn't that bad.

I have a lot of immersionfag within me, too, and a strong propagator of realistic combat systems with locational damage and wounds mostly replacing/being added to simple HP system.
(And if I ever told you the plans for my perfect RPG ideas, even the hardest immersionfags would call me crazy for actually wanting to go to so much effort for little details as I would.)

But I do believe that character development is an integral part of RPG gameplay - but, of course, that is not necessarily tied to gaining XP and levelling up (though I do like that system, but would change/adapt it to offer a more reasonable range of progression). Just as important - and often overlooked - are item progression, progression in more than just numbers, and progression through alternative means than XP.

I could elaborate in detail but it would derail the thread too much, so I'll just explain in short.
Usually, you are flooded with loot, and especially if magic items are common and you constantly get weapons that are +1 to your old ones, it soon feels insignificant. Getting upgrades in equipment more rarely and having the differences be more significant (and I deliberately say differences, not upgrades or some other word that would suggest strictly linear progression of item quality) makes it much more important and character-defining. Example: armours in the Gothic series.
Progression in more than just numbers is just as important. Going from 5 to 50 in swordsmanship skill and therfore gaining 40% more to hit chance and 70 more damage points is not half as satisfying as learning a new special move that can cripple an enemy. Getting +++damage to your magic spells isn't half as exciting as being able to cast a new type of spell. Etc etc.
Progression through alternate means would be things like reading books, going to trainers, or being shown a special move as a quest reward.

All these points would improve the "progression" part of RPGs quite significantly, while not changing the principle of becoming more powerful over the course of the game. It would also immensely contribute to the boners of immersionfags, because these measures would not only provide a more fun, but also a more realistic (or believable, if you prefer that term) gameplay experience that feels more natural and less gamey.

So yeah, the problem is not that RPGs have progression. It's RPGs having numbers going up by raising another number (XP) instead of actually connecting the levelling up process to the setting and to the rest of the game.

 

[deus101]

I'm guessing he takes Ritalin and needs to create as much stimuli as he can.

His word count on this thread is greater then both my Papers combined.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah the frightening thing is that his posts are larger than the essays I have to write for uni.

 

[Teepo]

Not a bad thread... Not a bad thread... Its missing something though... It needs a little umph... a little incomprehensible wham.

More desiring to make?

 

[NewFag]

Not a bad thread... Not a bad thread... Its missing something though... It needs a little umph... a little incomprehensible wham.

More desiring to make?

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

 

[Tel Prydain]

The worst thing is that games that do put story first aren’t really RPGs anymore, merely action/adventure games. An RPG is about your own character’s story and progression – if all you’re doing is rolling out a preset narrative, you’re doing it wrong.

 

[DraQ]

hey DraQ good to see you back, missed you for a while since the forum got upgraded (or just missed the threads you post in).

But I do believe that character development is an integral part of RPG gameplay - but, of course, that is not necessarily tied to gaining XP and levelling up (though I do like that system, but would change/adapt it to offer a more reasonable range of progression). Just as important - and often overlooked - are item progression, progression in more than just numbers, and progression through alternative means than XP.

Well, yeah, but item progression is hardly an RPG exclusive feature.

Of course, skill progression based mostly on situational perks conferring unique abilities, rather than (just) on incrementation would be an excellent thing to have, especially as it would integrate better with (heh) storyfag perspective.

I think it's not about realistic sword fights though. It IS about what and who the Witcher is for a storyfag.

Witcher, for a storyfag, is detailed on the pages of novels and stories written by Sapkowski.

Realistic, or at least fast and brutal swordfights ended with precision strikes are important part of this image and one ordinary HP whittling doesn't quite confer.

You say locational damage - In FCR especially, side and back leave you more vulnerable.

That's merely directional damage. Locational damage would include stuff like attacking openings in enemy armour/guard and rapid strikes at vital spots.

Locational armor - There's still a buy and sell system and an item system

Irrelevant to the fact that protection conferred by armour is global rather than locational.

Vital spots - This is replaced by stun killing as well as the special effects by the enemies. It is also made moot because the Witcher in FCR might as well hit the vital spots of the common human and the vital spots of the creatures according to their lore are the types of metals.

If HPs were involved, then not really. Stun killing was very, very nice thing about Witcher combat, but sometimes you had to fight enemies the hard way and it didn't work so well anymore.

Different attacks and parries are found in the Witcher's style.

Not really, because the attack are simply executed in pre-set sequence and have no functional differences, same with parries.

A fun fact about FCR - I ended up not using it for purely storyfag reason - the team behind the mod changed the effect of Blizzard potion and it didn't match established lore so well anymore.

Anyway, to cut things short - what's your point?

An idea may require pages upon pages of text to expound on all of its implications, quirks, ramifications and so on, but if the core concept cannot be summarised in 1-2 short sentences (like "speed of light is constant regardless of the observer", or "mass curve space itself", or "matter is made of tiny discrete bits"), it's probably not worth sharing and not worth reading/hearing.

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO I TOO THINK CHARACTER PROGRESSION IS IMPORTANT IN RPGS IT IS WHY I WAS TURNED OFF FROM ULTIMA SAVAGE EMPIRE THERE WAS LITTLE OR NO PROGRESSION IN POWER

IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT OPEN WORLD WITH MOSTLY ITEM PROGRESSION THE ORIGINAL LEGEND OF ZELDA IS PROBABLY THE BEST EXAMPLE

BRO I ALSO AGREE THAT OP DOESNT HAVE A FUCKING POINT

 

[DraQ]

*bump*

I have spent a while deciphering relevant post on Retinue's blog.

While not exactly clear it was helpful in clearing up some issues I will now adress, namely Retinue's misconception surrounding emergent narrative - while the concept of regressive narrative is still muddled (and it would be best to avoid it entirely by using actual antonym of emergent which would probably be 'preset' in this context), the emergence of narrative doesn't pertain to it's expandability (although it might be its apparent outward result), but to entirely different manner of creating it.

Base model for preset narrative is effectively a written or spoken story. A story may include choices - in form of questions asked by storyteller or a CYOA book. Each of those branching points, however, while technically a form of rudimentary mechanics, is a unique, one-shot event with it's own unique place in the story. In effect each branch is linear, preset experience, and individual branching points are also preset, so while the story told may vary, each variant is explicitly crafted preset experience, and possible stories form a graph, with discrete arcs and vertices.

Base model for emergent narrative is world. There is no story and there is no storyteller. A world doesn't try to tell any particular story, but chains of events occur within the world and we perceive them as stories. Those chains of events aren't explicitly preset at any level, they simply occur based on interplay of low level mechanics. And this is the ideal of emergent narrative - you don't glue on more and more preset branches, there are no discrete branches. You simply mess around with aimless simulation and it responds. It doesn't try to tell stories, it generates the events from lower level events and those from even lower level events, confident that you will try to make sense out of it and will succeed as humans are better storytellers than computers.

Second, there is something there I interpret as criticism of gamey elements like grinding - what do you know, if it's criticism, I fully agree. I have always wanted more immersive and natural feeling experience of gameworld, and if you manage supplant such gamey filler with something that makes sense in the context of the gameworld, all the better.

Third, I think Retinue should see a shrink, but that's more based on the rest of the blog.