So who should get the Fallout PC Licence now?

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I know that Troika tried to buy the rights a few years ago. But if they really would be interested now, they would have told us. They would have talked to the ex-developers and not a little company from Germany. I think Troika is occupied with other projects (Vampire 2) and I don't think they want to make a risky game like Fallout 3 now. Arcanum didn't sell well, ToEE was a major flop for them and Fallout 3 is not easy money. They need a blockbuster to survive and that's why they will concentrate their efforts on Vampire.

You know, this thread gets me thinking on CRPGs and their future. In many ways, I see what has happened and what will happen to FO as emblematic of CRPG gaming in general. Anywho, here goes a quick line of BS of what this thread got me thinking (sorry, I like to BS every once in a while). These are 3 rough futures I see for the CRPG genre:


/Super.BS.Mode ON

The Bright Side:

Maybe FOBOS will so ruin the Fallout name that all but the most devout group of CRPG gamers (who still remember the first two titles in the series) will hold any respect whatsoever for the license. The general gaming populace will think of it as little more than a poor Ikari Warriors in 3D. Sales will be near nonexistant; review sites will unmercifully thrash it and all will be right with the world. This may depreciate its value suffiently to allow Troika or Obsidian (or someother developer who will do something close to decent with it) to purchase the rights (perhaps after a nice, well deserved collapse of Intercrap)...if they still want to. If someone does, this (and perhaps other titles may contribute to this - such as the sci fi RPG alluded by Troika, or another from Obsidian) may spark a new golden age in CRPG gaming. A considerable chunk of the mass market will leave behind computer gaming (since so many titles will be coming out that demand more cerebral power than most of them combined) and instead opt to move onto console counterparts thereby allowing companies who wish to cater to the CRPG niche to do so in a less competitive market. People will cease to play adventure games in RPG clothing and games will be cool, immersive, deep and open once again (and no longer shackled by absurd demands for over increasingly restrictive storytelling - the focus will come to the depth of gameplay and character development).

Shit Happens:

The general gaming populace, being comprised predominantly of morons, will gleefully absorb FOBOS as it requires them to use as few as possible brain cells (key to most gamers). Intercrap will then refuse to let go of the license and continue to make crap with it - allowing for greater profits to be greadily funneled into the expectant pocketbooks of high level Intercrap execs. Other companies will take note and take on similar strategies. Soon the gaming landscape will be made up of guantlet clones called Wizardry and galaga clones called Star Control. The CRPG dies a quick and thankless death - remembered by a few and ressurected never.

Probable Outcome:

FOBOS will have mediocre but not abyssimal sales (since dwindling attention spans have made these kinds of crap games, seemingly, increasingly profitable). Intercrap will linger somewhat longer and continue to hold on to the license until it could be forcefully wrested from their deathly grip in a few years. By the time this is possible, however, few will care. The name will pass on to near total obscurity like that of games like Sundog, Wasteland and so on. Hardcore CRPGs will stumble towards near extinction since the mass market will dominate developer conciousness (especially as increasingly large corporations continue to edge themselves into the picture). Generally, RPGs will continue to merge with another failing genre - the adventure title. Bioware like titles will seem amazingly free and open in comparison to these future titles (which will mirror earlier attempts to mix these genres - like Veil of Darkness, Shannara, PST, etc). All is not lost, however, since one or two titles will come out every now again as freeware third party remakes, open source projects or poorly funded projects from smaller developers (with a few exceptions from a few key companies who may attempt to cater to our niche). Hope will remain since these titles will serve to keep the CRPG on the edge of the gaming conciousness. Still, CRPG gamers will have to put up with increasingly lower levels of quality and depth overall until the developing of true CRPGs is made considerably easier, faster and less costly by emergent technologies. Then, we may experience somewhat of a CRPG return in whatever form computer gaming takes in the not so near future.

/Super.BS.Mode OFF

Anywho, sorry for boring you guys to death. I know this has all been said before but, for some reason or another, I had to put it out there. It feels good to vent. :wink:

Try having some sense of discussion, shithead. That means no straw men, no half-ass "information" on your part about your self-delusional romp on the Interplay forums, and certainly no more of your ignorant bullshit about the history of the Fallout series.

You know, it is funny that you claim to not have seen me on the Interplay forums, but even the most out of the loop person could divulge to a retard such as yourself that Interplay used a completely different forum system them, so the search function would hardly be of help. Dear god, boy, you certainly are slow. In addition, might I also recommend to you that you learn the language tool of the abbreviation?

And Seasons Greetings to you too Rosh!

Another pointless reply by merit of non-sequitur red herring. Well, I guess I did forget to include that, as it does seem to be one of your "fortés" in "discussion" or "debate", as the meanings of all would have to be grossly butchered to begin approximating what you're up to. If you want to wish season's greetings, then do so in a general forum topic. If you don't want to bother keeping to the topic, do us a favor. Don't bother replying and don't bother making any more astoundingly uninformed topics/repeat topics, either.

LOL...Rosh, the majority of your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic...at least I have tried to make some occassional contributions to the actual question *I* intially posed as well as defend myself. Please go back through the thread if you don't believe me.

Furthermore I have just as much right to post my crap on these boards as you do, even if my crap isn't quite as impressive a you think yours is. It is my right to post an opinion/question here if I wish...deal with it. It is not your right to hurl invective and abuse - however as there is no real moderation here I have to deal with it...fair enough.

I offered you "Seasons Greetings" in the hope we could bury the hatchet and get off to a reasonable new year. It seems to me that you will only be happy if the hatchet comes buried in my skull.

As this will just get wildly off topic if we continue - I have created a new thread for you to continue running me down if you so wish in general discussion.

Regards,

Funny, since people are getting amusement from my size 13 being applied to your clueless ass repeatedly as I spank you out of the discussion. Apparently, I cover your points so well that all you can do is make ad hominem whining, which I might have to say constitutes most of your posts.

Bullshit, kid. I have had E-4's try to blow smoke up my ass before. It didn't work for any of them, so I really doubt that you have any chance to obfuscate that point for me or any others. Most of your involvement here comes from posting some incredibly stupid and/or ignorant shit, have it debunked, and then you'll usually whine at being called an idiot or post something completely irrelevent like the above. If you wish to talk about on-topic, you're in no condition, kid.

It is a pity that possessing even the merest shred of a clue is required for most places. But that is okay, you're just posting to see the words appear upon the screen, as you've done little to contribute to the conversation and you absolutely suck at debate.

Hey, if we have to deal with your clueless bullshit and idiocy, then you can accept my abuse and like it, kid.

Good, and you can take another for that obvious lie. Or you are just incredibly inept at communication. In the manner presented, only sarcasm is the obvious meaning. Again, kid, stop your whining like a clueless little netnewbie who got his hands smacked for talking complete nonsense.

No, it gets wildly off topic because you drop the topic in order to whine. I've already covered your debate points, while you just have some whining to counter that. Frankly, I nor others are impressed, although you are setting a new record for someone being this terminally clueless.

Congratulations on trolling.

Oh, one more thing.

Shithead.

TOEE bombed? I thought it did just ok.

No,I didn't miss your point...and I know many agree with you on that point....
My point isn't per se the opposite,my point is that _I_ don't see Troika as the saviour alone...(and that I don't fear it'll be a disaster automatically just because someone haven't been part of the FO series before.....)
It's just like the stand I took on the 3D debate...3D is only a technology,just like Troika is only a producer...none of them need to spell disaster or success....
Yes,they've been speculations,but so is every other thing concerning a possible best for FO3,unless someone tells every producer in the world to make FO3 and we'd get to compare the end products there's no actual way of saying "they are the ones".
Stating that Troika is the best option is no more right or wrong than my wishes...

I know that,Troika however hasn't got that many of the original dev's....(three when they first started and some aren't around anymore IIRC...)

Not sure what he meant,but reading forums I'd guess that initial sales would've been bigger if the patch had not been required....
It's still new enough to not affect the price and hence it might not hurt the income,but making sure the game's playable when released would also make sure people won't wait for a patch.(which had it not been released might very well have hurt the sales....)

You know, I don't think Troika is the only company that could do an RPG, but I think they're probably the best bet. FO2 was Feargus' baby, and we get Frank Horrigan as a bad guy, one we have to fight.

Yeah,but FO2 was also hurried out,so had they been given more time I'd _think_ it'd also have been more of a game.....
IIRC it was only 8 months between the two...and that's not enough time even if you do know the engine and what to do.....(just take Unreal Tournament 2004 as an example,and it's "only" an FPS,it still seems to need more than those months to be released....and AFAIK it's more or less what UT2K3 was supposed to be,so most features should already be documented.....)
Publishers do unfortunately have a lot to say in what the end product will be,just like stuff had to be cut out of ToEE due to WoTC and Atari....

True, FO2 was rushed like a mother fucker, but I'm still unsure of Feargus' RPG "capabilities". after all, what was that quote that SP had from both Cain and Urquhart? Despite the fact that each might be taken out of context, it shows where the repective minds were then and where they might be now.

I too have doubts of Feargus' work, as it was often hard to tell where the Titus puppeteer's hand ended and where Feargus began.

Let's not forget MISTAR SLAM DUNK!

Or "Everything Fallout fans have been waiting for since Fallout 2" in regards to the unimaginative setting of Torn.

"Hey, check out these people at Reflexive! Let's give them a contract to develop a CRPG despite the fact that all they've done so far is some action games (some of which suck hard) and the closest thing they have to CRPG experience is a crappy Diablo knock-off and what is undoubtedly the shittiest Star Trek game ever. But they're my friends, give them a chance! It will use the SPESHUL system, which the Fallout fans would surely like. It will be real time with pause since that is what the Baldur's Gate people would like, so we are sure to get sales from them by using that kind of combat."

Then there's the hilarious TB is dead parroting that I hope for his sake it wasn't his own words as well.

Did I miss anything from Vol. 1, shall we skip the rest and go for Vol. 12?

@Major:
Don't remember exactly what SP's .sig was either....but I do remember "fighting" him about it...
Reason was that the quote from Feargus was something about cool looking miniguns with 3D and since I can't find one single contradiction between graphical goodies and a deep game I brought it up....(TC quote was something about exploring the world....which again doesn't contradict the possibility to add nice graphics....)

@Both Major and Rosh:
Yes,Feargus did spew out some things...but as a head of a studio under the directance of the owner/publisher you'd most likely be forced to go PR....
Not saying he'd do a good or bad job with RPG's myself,chances are however that we'd get to see a bit more of the real Feargus in the future.(barring of course that he wants his own studio to do well....but I'm referring to a possible future where they've made a name for themselves and might have a bit of cash....otherwise he'll still be stuck in the publishers hands....)
Besides...anyone who gets MCA to join the company can't be an awful person,can he?

He doesn't have to be an awful person to make sub-par (or even just mediocre) games. He just has to lack creativity, which is the real fear, I think.

I know,it was a joke...with some truth to it....since MCA is (by me and loads of people from what I've seen) very respected and I personally don't think he'd join a company that due to leadership would never release a proper RPG and give him some personal freedom creating it.(not at start of course since they'd need to make a name,but in a not too distant future...)
Also,if he's a good boss he'll know when to step in....all the bosses I've had (never making games of course since I'm not part of the industry) that I respect and count as good has been more or less invisible during normal production....always there when you need them,but never interfearing or coming at you with a "this is how to do" when they have zero knowledge about the product or work involved....(spent most of my working days within the Telecom industry making phone exchanges for Ericsson in case someone wonders)

I've never encountered a good (or even usefull) boss... Always too caught up in useless trivia (usually paperwork, that someone, somewhere else in the organization pretends is meaningful, but is ultimately ignored). This tends to prevent them from doing any meaningful work.

Hmmm....

Well my job was not really to be creative with games. I've been happy with the small things that I have gotten to design - and most of them turned out well. Ultimately, I got into the business to make games and whether through management or a little design here and there, I have gotten to do that. Of course, I've made both good and bad decisions during that time - like anyone else would have done in my position.

I'm biased of course, but I believe I was and still am a good boss. I have had to learn a lot about managing people by making mistakes and by reading a lot. Interplay was never rife with "educated" managers and so I also learned from mine and other people's mistakes.

I will say one thing about all of this and that there is something you guys miss when you think about what was going on at Interplay. You may have been unhappy with some of the Black Isle games, but they all made money. What other games at Interplay were making money? Not many. So you are this guy that is responsible for 50 to 60 people and you have to make decisions about what games to make. You'd love to go off and take a chance, but what about those 50 or 60 people who have to support a company of 300 since no one else seems to have a clue? Do you quit? Do you go for the "slam-dunk"? There is no net, so how much will you risk?

That probably came off more like a whine and probably a little defensive, but that’s how I looked at the situation.

I really do like managing the development of RPGs - all kinds of RPGs, because I play all kinds of RPGs. I enjoyed ToEE until it started getting lame and I also really liked Diablo 2 – for the ten hours it took to finish. And even more strangely - I've played almost every builder game out there - dunno why, but I enjoy them.

Lastly, there was a quote of mine on here somewhere that I thought fantasy was better than other genres. I think my comment had something to do with the fact that Fallout didn't sell as well as BG because it wasn't fantasy and it was turn-based instead of real-time. That was my interpretation of why one product sold more than another, not my saying that one product was better than another. I think Trade Empires was one of the most interesting games that has come out in the last 5 years, but I doubt any of you have played it. If someone asked me why it didn't sell - I would say that it wasn't marketed effectively, it didn't have a visible "hook", the screenshots were not awe inspiring and the builder genre (other than Sim-City) is not known for its million unit sellers. Those are just facts - or my interpretation of the facts, they are not me saying that games like Trade Empires shouldn't be made or are not as good as games like Sim-City.

So, I didn't really answer the question that started this thread, but again I'm biased. I would love to make another Fallout, but to be honest I wouldn't know where to go with it. Not being at Interplay it makes the decision harder - weirdly enough. At Interplay I had to make decisions to maximize whatever we did for the reasons I mentioned above. So I would have pushed for Fallout 3 to be real-time and mutli-player. Again, I had to make decisions based upon a certain environment. Now, I don't have those same constraints, so I don't know what I would do. I do think that Josh was on the right track and that they unfortunately would have made a great game. Unfortunately, because it will most likely never come out in that form.

If Troika does get the license, I think they should think a lot about what the Fallout 3 team had done and look at the technology that was created. Maybe not to use it, but to see what ideas that had come up. One of the criticisms that I do have of ToEE was that there were some things in the IE games that made playing the games easier - things having to do with the interface and party control (I’m not talking about game mechanics or anything having to do with turn based vs. real-time vs pause n play real-time). They should have seen what the IE games did in certain situations like party formation control and "copied" those things. ToEE would have been a better game for it.

As I usually say, that was a lot longer than I expected.

-Feargus

Feargus, it has been quite obvious for some time that IPLY was on the S.S. Tank for some time. If you expect us to believe that it is such a sudden revelation, you are mistaken.

Also, if you keep to believing that knocking out cheap games is the way to go, then I hope you do well as BioWare's hemorrhoid, as I really can't see any other way such a folly would continue. You don't hear much about some of TSR's games that used the same engine as Gold Box, but they are there. How much do you want to bet that IWD and IWD2 will be just as faceless in ten years or so?

That is what bars me from having much respect for you. In an indutry that was founded upon an artistic expression in a parallel that matches authoring or painting, you care most about making a quick buck instead of what has been proven to work before (you know, hard work shows), and all for the sake of slightly prolonging the inevitable based upon a smoke and mirrors approach rather than a game that would have longevity. The word for today, kiddies, is longevity. Can you say "longevity", kids? Very good.

Now insert the missing word into the following sentence:

"Making sub-par games and selling them at full price does nothing for market respect, company ______, title ______, my own fucking job's ______, much less the others who I've led on this Quixotic folly, not to mention either teaching some of the devs who work for me suicidal business practices or what not to do in the industry."

Sound painfully familiar?

Releasing games at full price when the price it costs doesn't suit the quality of the product...well, that's just asinine, really. That's on the verge of snake oil salesman, pig in a poke, pick your cliché. If you don't get a good initial title, or flub up one sequel, then there's little chance for the interest in another sequel, right? Then you have to work on another title. I think you're familiar with this torn-up topic, right?

That is BAD business. You don't just put all your eggs into believing the consumer is going to buy all when the games are full price and then hope the hype the company paid for is going to float the boat. I really wonder if you've been aware how that practice has failed nearly everyone foolish enough to try it. The customers become very aware of the quality of the product, because in the only instance that the game industry does follow a trait of conventional merchandising, is that there is a BRAND NAME attached to it. "Hey, there's that one game...oh, wait, made by Interplay. Didn't you buy that really crappy game from them tjhat one time and neither the pawn shop or the EB would give you credit for? Let's get that game (insert reputable name), made by (competent company)."

Sound painfully familiar?

So, if you get a license, does that mean you'll compromise the integrity of it in favor of doing a quick "SLAM DUNK!" for cash? I really can't respect anyone who parrots Herve Caen's brand of business suicide.

You might be good with people, but you need to really learn how the game industry, particularly what makes and keeps a company in high profile and also what results in games reaching sequels that reach the number 7.

Or, for that matter, and more apropos, 3.

Re: Hmmm....

Of course! It's from the guys who made the great Imperialism!

True - but as Feargus said, all the BIS games *made* money. It isn't his fault if BIS' parent company is a lost cause. It is quite common for companies to have divisions that perform well and others poorly.

The production of IWD2 was of remarkably high quality for the development time involved, and the original game was one of the best party-based dungeon hacks ever. If you think they were a bad as "Hillsfar", "Al Quadim" or "Spelljammer" then you're having a laugh. Those titles were truly awful attempts to cash in on the licence. The IWD games had a consistent storyline, good strategic combat and nice graphics. Sure the second suffered a bit for the rushed production but overall they were pretty good and...what a surprise...made money (even if IWD2 wasn't quite the SLAM DUNK Feargus predicted),

Having worked in the Arts industry for some time I can tell you that while holding on to your artisic integrity is great, in the end if you want to eat sometimes you have to make compromises. This is especially true if you work for an organisation that controls the purse strings. Now I'm not saying this means that "Lionheart" was a good idea but if "artistic" games (FO, PST) aren't paying the bills then one viable strategy is to pump out a sequel or licenced game and hope that there is a big enough cash injection to give you time to work on that "artistic, revolutionary" game you planned. Alas with BIS being controlled by IPLY this was impossible.

Interesting that you want "artistic" games but think that they should have endless sequels, because if you think that Wizardry 7 and Might & Magic 7 deviated substantially from their predeccesors then you are somewhat mistaken (can't comment on Ultima 7 as I never played it). They were good games that cashed in on the previous games and helped keep their companies afloat for a few more years...but then where are Sir-Tech, 3DO and Origin now? Producing multiple sequels is no guarentee of longevity in this industry.

All of the games published by BIS during Feargus' reign were (with the exception of Lionheart, which didn't come out till after his departure anyhow), at the very least, good solid efforts - and most were brilliant. All were profitable. That's not "smoke and mirrors" - that's a track record. Yes some projects were cancelled during this period, including one announced one, but this happens to every company (yes -even Blizzard!).

Don't blame Feargus for the mismanagement of Interplay as a whole.