So... Quake...

[GarfunkeL]

But enemies stagger when you hit them hard enough.

It just doesn't work effectively in practice.

In Doom you can be almost point blank with a Mancubus or Baron and completely shut down their attacks by interrupting their attack animation. Against Shamblers or Ogres that's suicidal.

Also not being able to interrupt the jump of Fiends with a good double shotgun blast like you could lost souls is pure fucking bullshit.

Pretty sure you can. I remember killing fiends mid-air.

 

[Average Manatee]

Grunts are the only true hitscan enemies in Quake. Also, false dichotomy is false, and taking cover in order to not get shot doesn't in itself equal popamole anyway.

Shamblers may have a maximum range but they are effectively hitscan since Quake is so compact and they'll hit instantly without being dodgable.

If something can only be fought by hiding behind cover and peaking out, its popamole. Technically you can just charge them with the super nail gun and hope they get stunned but its highly unreliable such that you basically should never attempt it.

Pretty sure you can. I remember killing fiends mid-air.

Well obviously you can kill anything with damage. I'm talking about stopping their movement mid-attack without killing them. As it is they have too much health to be 1-shot without the Quad damage. It's like 3-4 double shotgun blasts to take them down.

 

[dunno lah]

When I say circle-strafing, of course I meant that you use whatever movements necessary to kill, dodge and navigate through the level. This applies to every old FPS, whether you're moving in an "8", circle or just side to side, they're all used frequently if you're trying to kill everything in a level. Otherwise, just run n gun your way to the exit. If you look at videos, Quake involves more movement and skill than even Doom.

 

[Carrion]

Shamblers may have a maximum range but they are effectively hitscan since Quake is so compact and they'll hit instantly without being dodgable.

Their attack animation is actually pretty slow, giving you enough time to GTFO to avoid the lightning, and at close range they use their claws instead.

If something can only be fought by hiding behind cover and peaking out, its popamole. Technically you can just charge them with the super nail gun and hope they get stunned but its highly unreliable such that you basically should never attempt it.

I don't know where the notion comes from that the game either has to be all about circle-strafing or popamole, with nothing in between. Taking cover is pretty much the single most sensible course of action you can take in a firefight, and because of this reason it is present in some form in pretty much every single first-person shooter ever from the simplest arcade shooters to the most complex military simulators. The whole concept of popamole only comes into play when you introduce stuff like regenerating health, all-seeing third-person camera or chest-high walls that take up half of the level architecture.

Quake has different enemies that require different tactics, and the level design also prevents one single approach from being usable everywhere. Utilizing cover to take out a Shambler may be a good idea, but not if that Shambler is accompanied by a couple of Fiends who would be more than happy to rip your immobile ass to shreds right away. You might enter a big room that allows you to circle-strafe around the enemies, but another time you might find yourself on a narrow ledge with Ogres raining grenades on you from above, at which point you'll have to figure out something else. The level design actually allows for some pretty cool and unorthodox ways to move around in combat, as displayed by the speedrun video on the last page, and to me it's just a huge oversimplification to say that the game is "about circle-strafing" like it was the only thing the game has to offer.

 

[Lyric Suite]

^ Right on. Codexers taking their pet peeves for an absolute.

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't know where the notion comes from that the game either has to be all about circle-strafing or popamole, with nothing in between.

I never said it did. I said that Quake does this.

Other FPSs and particularly DOOM:

- Have stunlocking as an option. Quake really doesn't have this since its unreliable.
- Have reactive dodges as an option. Quake is so cramped, enemies so fast and your hitbox so big that you can't dodge reactively, only proactively.
- Have crowd control in the form of enemy infighting as an option. Again, Quake tries, but the scale of levels, small amount of enemies, and the way most encounters are designed pretty much prevent its use.

Quake has different enemies that require different tactics, and the level design also prevents one single approach from being usable everywhere. Utilizing cover to take out a Shambler may be a good idea, but not if that Shambler is accompanied by a couple of Fiends who would be more than happy to rip your immobile ass to shreds right away. You might enter a big room that allows you to circle-strafe around the enemies, but another time you might find yourself on a narrow ledge with Ogres raining grenades on you from above, at which point you'll have to figure out something else. The level design actually allows for some pretty cool and unorthodox ways to move around in combat, as displayed by the speedrun video on the last page, and to me it's just a huge oversimplification to say that the game is "about circle-strafing" like it was the only thing the game has to offer

No, the tactics really boil down to circling constantly or breaking line of sight. If you're in with a Shambler or something and can't take cover then the only option is to whip out the nailgun or lightning gun and pray you take it down before you take tons of damage.

Also it's really fucking stupid to pretend that tactics shown in speedruns are in any way indicative of what you can do in real gameplay. That shit requires hundreds if not thousands of replays to get right once, no one does that when playing normally because its suicidal. You can find examples of people playing without cover in modern popamole shooters, doesn't mean that they aren't popamole.

 

[Space Insect]

I never had any problems with dodging enemy attacks in Quake. Most of the rooms are not as cramped as you make them sound and enemies are not these crazy fast things either.

 

[dunno lah]

He must've been playing on Nightmare Hard -fast. It's only there that monsters become like what Manatee says.

 

[skacky]

Grunts are the only true hitscan enemies in Quake. Also, false dichotomy is false, and taking cover in order to not get shot doesn't in itself equal popamole anyway.

And even then, not quite so. Their shots trail a bit after the player, so if you move real fast you can avoid the shots, though it almost never works on Nightmare since they shoot a lot faster.
Also triggering the Ogre's chainsaw attack to avoid them firing grenades or doing the Shambler dance is incredibly easy to do. Provided you don't play on Nightmare, again, where doing that is a lot harder though still doable.

 

[Lyric Suite]

What kind of scrub plays Quake on anything but nightmare?

 

[Durandal]

No, the tactics really boil down to circling constantly or breaking line of sight. If you're in with a Shambler or something and can't take cover then the only option is to whip out the nailgun or lightning gun and pray you take it down before you take tons of damage.

Baiting Shamblers (and Ogres) into performing their melee attacks while avoiding them by backstepping is one of the basic strategies for survival in Quake. Adding more enemies into the mix is where you have to get creative.

 

[Average Manatee]

What kind of scrub plays Quake on anything but nightmare?

I assumed everyone was talking about nightmare. The lesser difficulties are all literally designed for people playing without a mouse, considering you couldn't even get proper mouselook unless you entered console commands. Is Fast Monsters a thing in Quake? I thought Nightmare was just Hard + faster monsters.

On lesser difficulties you do get a sense of health bloat because the enemies are pretty much helpless to do anything but watch as you spam them with lead. Health Bloat should not be viewed as an absolute Health divided by DPS thing, its the feeling you get when you are wasting time with an enemy that isn't really dangerous.

 

[DraQ]

If something can only be fought by hiding behind cover and peaking out, its popamole.

You have it wrong way around.
If something effectively cannot fight you if you hide behind something and take potshots at it THEN it's popamole
(technically this something should be sitting behind cover as well, but let's not be pedantic).

Technically you can just charge them with the super nail gun and hope they get stunned but its highly unreliable such that you basically should never attempt it.

Works for me. You just need to keep moving IIRC.

Well obviously you can kill anything with damage. I'm talking about stopping their movement mid-attack without killing them. As it is they have too much health to be 1-shot without the Quad damage. It's like 3-4 double shotgun blasts to take them down.

Actually, it's not a bad thing that a game where you fight scythe-armed demonic monstrosities doesn't give you an effective tool to off them when they are right in your face.
Supershotgun in Doom 2 (vs pinkies) and in Q2 (vs mostly everything) killed much of the tension (though lack of it wouldn't help Q2 much, since enemies were wimps anyway).

 

[Average Manatee]

If something can only be fought by hiding behind cover and peaking out, its popamole.

You have it wrong way around.
If something effectively cannot fight you if you hide behind something and take potshots at it THEN it's popamole
(technically this something should be sitting behind cover as well, but let's not be pedantic).

Virtually everything in games can't effectively fight you if you hide behind something and take potshots. Every enemy in Doom with the small exception of revenants? Check. Every enemy in Quake minus Vores (which are basically revenants 2.0)? Check.

It's popamole not when its possible to hide behind cover, because its almost always possible. It's popamole when it is always or most often the only strategy available.

 

[DraQ]

If something can only be fought by hiding behind cover and peaking out, its popamole.

You have it wrong way around.
If something effectively cannot fight you if you hide behind something and take potshots at it THEN it's popamole
(technically this something should be sitting behind cover as well, but let's not be pedantic).

Virtually everything in games can't effectively fight you if you hide behind something and take potshots. Every enemy in Doom with the small exception of revenants? Check. Every enemy in Quake minus Vores (which are basically revenants 2.0)? Check.

It's popamole not when its possible to hide behind cover, because its almost always possible. It's popamole when it is always or most often the only strategy available.

So what you're saying is that the game must be easier than popamole to not be popamole?

 

[Average Manatee]

So what you're saying is that the game must be easier than popamole to not be popamole?

Popamole is the natural consequence of a game where staying out of cover is made impossible through "difficulty", but its obviously about game design rather than something that can be considered so simplistically.

If you play CoD like DOOM you'll get fucked hard, but boiling this down to difficulty is a red herring.

 

[DraQ]

So what you're saying is that the game must be easier than popamole to not be popamole?

Popamole is the natural consequence of a game where staying out of cover is made impossible through "difficulty", but its obviously about game design rather than something that can be considered so simplistically.

If you play CoD like DOOM you'll get fucked hard, but boiling this down to difficulty is a red herring.

Popamole is a kind of mechanical, AI or other game design loophole that indicates bad design and create bad gameplay by giving player a tool that is simple to use, not limited and that enemies cannot counter. In case of popamole this tool is cover, which enemies cannot counter because they lack ability to flank (AI) means to flush you out and ability to take you out as you simply sit there popping up and down (either bad AI and long reaction times, or your ability to blindfire effectively without exposing yourself).

If a game can be won at least as easily easily by popamoling as by using the next most applicable tactics it is a popamole. If the game offers you the same and just as easy popamole tactics and a selection of other tactics of comparable difficulty it's easier than straight popamole because it's merely a popamole with extra options.

And sometimes, a popamole game may have non-popamole game inside desperately wanting to get out - for example DX:HR without sticky cover.

 

[Carrion]

The whole argument (if it can even be called that) about popamole seems pretty dumb in the context of Quake, which has a very low number of hitscan enemies, where the majority of enemies use melee attacks, and where enemies actually have ways of flushing you out of cover, like throwing grenades at you or just simply rushing straight towards your position to murder you at close range. I also don't see where the problem is if one particular enemy type (the strongest one in the base game, no less) requires a different approach from all the others... especially when you can still reliably take it out in the open with a bit of timing and practice.

 

[DraQ]

The whole argument (if it can even be called that) about popamole seems pretty dumb in the context of Quake, which has a very low number of hitscan enemies, where the majority of enemies use melee attacks, and where enemies actually have ways of flushing you out of cover, like throwing grenades at you or just simply rushing straight towards your position to murder you at close range.

Well, Q2 would yield much better to such accusations.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Not really, since as you pointed out many times, you can just dance around the enemies at will. No need for popamole tactics. In fact, the best tactic in Q2 is to get at point blank range and blast everything with the super shotgun. Barring a few exceptions, this works on everything, including the big tank guys.

 

[Orobis]

I miss quake 2. Used to play it a lot online back in the day on Mplayer. CTF, rails only matches, Rocket arena, loved using the grappling hook. Was damn fun times. Anyone remember Mplayer or use to play on it?

 

[DraQ]

Not really, since as you pointed out many times, you can just dance around the enemies at will. No need for popamole tactics. In fact, the best tactic in Q2 is to get at point blank range and blast everything with the super shotgun. Barring a few exceptions, this works on everything, including the big tank guys.

If a game can be won at least as easily easily by popamoling as by using the next most applicable tactics it is a popamole. If the game offers you the same and just as easy popamole tactics and a selection of other tactics of comparable difficulty it's easier than straight popamole because it's merely a popamole with extra options.

 

[Average Manatee]

That's stupid, you can popamole in almost any game. You can popamole in Doom in 90% of situations (custom WADs usually have to explicitly lock players in rooms or block off exits with enemies to prevent it and make the game harder). That doesn't make Doom a popamole game.

The measure of a popamole game isn't whether its possible to popamole, it's whether its either impossible or hugely disadvantaged to do anything but popamole.

 

[DraQ]

That's stupid, you can popamole in almost any game. You can popamole in Doom in 90% of situations

Can you? An awful lot of the time rooms are convex polygons and entryways are shaped in some way that prevents camping just outside - a short corridor with door to the room on the end, an elevator into the room, etc.
Often there is just no suitable cover or too little of it to protect you from all the enemies at the same time.

On top of it the enemies are often behind some obstacle that prevents drawing them out somewhere more favourable.

Compare with Q2 where cover is plentiful, combat is very hitscan dominant (50% of weapons are hitscan and this includes ALL the workhorse weapons, most enemies have hitscan attacks, most of the remaining ones spam), and enemies are few, slow, dumb and have crap reflexes.

 

[Average Manatee]

If anything I'd say it was the way most people played Doom on release. Bear in mind that we're talking about a default control scheme with tank control arrow keys, walk mode on by default, and being unable to aim while strafing. Actions like "open door, immediately back up and take cover behind the right side to clear out the left side of the room" are natural usages of cover.

The only game I can think of that really avoids any kind of popamole without simply removing cover as an option (either by open map design or spawning in enemies around you) is Unreal due to how incredibly fast and aggressive the Skaarj are. There's probably a few other examples but that's all I can recall at the moment.