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Atlus So I'm playing SMT: Nocturne

CrimHead

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Jesus Christ. People who played Nocturne when it first came out must be frothing at the mouth with anticipation-fueled rage. It seems like every game since Nocturne has a little caveat that keeps it from being as good, though were it not for that, the game would actually hold up very well.

Even if P3 and P4 have approximately the same fusion system as Nocturne, the problem is that 3 of the 4 party slots are locked by the companions, who can't switch persona. Way to fuck up something good.

:retarded:

Ugh, even so, I'll give p4 and Strange Journey a try, I guess.

Fake edit:

Ah, one thing I can say that frustrated me in Nocturne (and probably the only thing, actually), is the degree of apparent randomness involved in pretty much everything. For example, the game almost requires you to use some sort of guide to help build your character (At least on hard). You can't pick and choose skills. An example of this in the fusion system would obviously be the fact that you have to roll/re-roll fusions, which has already been mentioned. This peculiarity even carries over to the level design, what with dissapearing/teleporting floors. I recall this feature being most frustratingly prominent in the white temple, which had me pulling hairs. Seriously, fuck that place.

Oh well. I guess the game is trying to send a message, that being: figure it out, faggot. Very old school. I guess I appreciate and enjoy the lack of hand holding as much as it frustrates me.
 

Admiral jimbob

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:x :x :x ENJOY YOUR TRIAL AND ERROR GAMEPLAY WEEABOO

Also, Devil Survivor is good for party selection/heavy customization as well, without stupid randomness (which some see as a bad thing) except in the demon auction. It's a bit love it or hate it, but I'd give it a go. I got to near the end, trying to please everyone so I would have my choice of final-day routes, but as a result stretched myself too thin and was left to choose between the cop-out "run away" path everyone gets and the evil path. C&C!!
 

CrimHead

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Admiral jimbob said:
:X :X :X ENJOY YOUR TRIAL AND ERROR GAMEPLAY WEEABOO


:lol: Yeah, I'm suprised this thread hasn't gathered the attention of such enlightened individuals.

But really, traditionally, hasn't difficulty in games pretty much always equated to trial and error? You have to learn the enemies and mechanics somehow. Off the top of my head I can't think of a game in which difficulty != trial and error.

Admiral jimbob said:
Also, Devil Survivor is good for party selection/heavy customization as well, without stupid randomness (which some see as a bad thing) except in the demon auction. It's a bit love it or hate it, but I'd give it a go.


:thumbsup:
 

Yandere

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Devil Survivor is awesome, so i'll second that recomendation. It is (most of the time, at least) challenging but fair, the battles are varied, the bosses are intense and kind of puzzle like but can be solved in many diferent way, characters (other than poor retarded Yuzu) will not make you want to tear your eyes and ears each time they happen to talk, and the Visual Novel elements add a layer of C&C, both ilusory and real, that's pretty much win outside of one particular and completely stupid event.

Give it a try, indeed.
 

lightbane

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CrimHead said:
Ugh, even so, I'll give p4 and Strange Journey a try, I guess.

The main problem with Persona 3-4 games is that you'll have to suffer through annoying dating sim-like gameplay, where you most likelly willl have to waste your time with unbearable angsty teenagers 'cause for some reason by having multiple and successful social relationships equals to being able to summon powerful demons. And of course there are romances (but no rape nor sex scenes) :x
 

KalosKagathos

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Chateaubryan said:
It's a rather weak consolation for not being able to customize them the way you did in Nocturne. For the most part, they are built the same way : one or two buff/debuff, one elemental/physical spell family and sometimes a little touch of something else.
So? You can't try any fun gimmick builds with them, true, but their skill sets are solid, if generic. It's not like the game forces you to work with underpowered crap.
Crooked Bee said:
Strange Journey, of course.
A good game, but it might me too similar to Nocturne thematically to play them back to back.
CrimHead said:
On the bright side, the main character can change his Persona on the fly (which changes everything: stats, skills, resistances), right in the middle of combat. That pleased my inner munchkin to no end.
This peculiarity even carries over to the level design, what with dissapearing/teleporting floors. I recall this feature being most frustratingly prominent in the white temple, which had me pulling hairs. Seriously, fuck that place.
The game marks teleportation tiles with exclamation marks on the auto-map. You only have to memorize where they lead to, and explore them, one by one. You don't even need any graph paper to map the place out.
 

Chateaubryan

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KalosKagathos said:
So? You can't try any fun gimmick builds with them, true, but their skill sets are solid, if generic. It's not like the game forces you to work with underpowered crap.

I'm not saying that their builds weren't solid. If the developers wanted to prevent the player from powerbuilding boss-tailored parties, "locking" the companions slots was a good decision. However, fusions and party-building - working on synergies and so - was what made Nocturne fun. Personae lost a good half of their fun factor that way, at least for me.
 

CrimHead

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lightbane said:
but no rape nor sex scenes

The ultimate betrayal.

KalosKagathos said:
The game marks teleportation tiles with exclamation marks on the auto-map. You only have to memorize where they lead to, and explore them, one by one. You don't even need any graph paper to map the place out.

Oh, I know. It's just that retreading the same ground repeatedly+ the game's extremely high encounter rates tends to make for some frustration. The White temple and the final floors on the Tower of Kagutsuchi are fuckin' brutal in this respect.

But besides that the game was pretty much perfect, and has, what I think, are the best boss battles of any game I've ever played.

Also, p. sweet music


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqah6JOT ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO6LWQhv ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09t3EFCsq_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFWrjPwfwYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUPMUrCNtKA
 
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CrimHead said:
Ah, one thing I can say that frustrated me in Nocturne (and probably the only thing, actually), is the degree of apparent randomness involved in pretty much everything. For example, the game almost requires you to use some sort of guide to help build your character (At least on hard). You can't pick and choose skills.

I think you are really selling short the versatility of the system. The great thing is that the press turn system doesn't require your character to be able to do anything. Passing turns, as long as you don't need to pass two characters in a row, is effectively free (at least against bosses, where you aren't getting criticals or exploiting weaknesses). Yes, building a character is absolutely maddening to power gamers, but in the end any build works with a decent demon set. Hell, using only items as the MC and skipping the turn at all other times probably isn't too much more difficult then playing regularly.

I'm not saying that their builds weren't solid. If the developers wanted to prevent the player from powerbuilding boss-tailored parties, "locking" the companions slots was a good decision. However, fusions and party-building - working on synergies and so - was what made Nocturne fun. Personae lost a good half of their fun factor that way, at least for me.

I agree. Persona 3/4 combat felt too much like a JRPG grind simulator where 3/4ths of the party power depended explicitly on how high leveled they were. Switching away from the press turn system was another big problem, since you couldn't skip characters whose skill sets were weaker for the task at hand in favour of the ones who would actually help. Persona 3 of course was especially was bad without party control. You got to make 1 move then went back to watching for 30s praying your team didn't fuck up too badly.

Persona 4 almost had a good idea with being able to choose what skills party members would learn as they leveled, but I can't think of more than one instance in which choosing was anything more then 'do I want dia or diarama?', which is of course a non-choice. If those choices were expanded so that the characters had skill choices every other level rather than simply skill upgrades every 10 levels the system would have been pretty good.
 

CrimHead

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I think you are really selling short the versatility of the system. The great thing is that the press turn system doesn't require your character to be able to do anything. Passing turns, as long as you don't need to pass two characters in a row, is effectively free (at least against bosses, where you aren't getting criticals or exploiting weaknesses). Yes, building a character is absolutely maddening to power gamers, but in the end any build works with a decent demon set. Hell, using only items as the MC and skipping the turn at all other times probably isn't too much more difficult then playing regularly.

Still think they could've done something better concerning the obfuscation of magatama skills, but I agree completely with your views on the press turn system. It's one of the most satisfying combat systems I've ever encountered in a game, rpg or not. During boss fights, skipping turns to set up buffs/debuffs before attacking is something I did extremely regularly. Another thing I enjoyed thoroughly was the weakness/resistance system. Even though a lot of games have them, it plays an infinitely larger role here, and it's something you pretty much always have to take into consideration, lest you meet a timely death. Take my first encounter with Vile Girimehkala. I remember finding out it repelled physical attacks the hard way pretty damn fast (read: my own focus+divine shot insta-killing me)
 

Crooked Bee

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Overweight Manatee said:
too much like a JRPG grind simulator where 3/4ths of the party power depended explicitly on how high leveled they were.

Thanks for formulating my main grudge against the "uninspired" type of JRPGs. *Updated my jrpgsareshithereiswhy.txt*

EDIT.
(That's why I'm glad they introduced a mechanism against too much grinding in 4 Heroes of Light, where you can only beat bosses by an optimal combination of skills/classes, not by becoming higher-level which ultimately not only doesn't matter much -- the game in fact *punishes* you for over-grinding it.)
 
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KalosKagathos said:
CrimHead said:
On the bright side, the main character can change his Persona on the fly (which changes everything: stats, skills, resistances), right in the middle of combat. That pleased my inner munchkin to no end.

Also serves as in-game justification for the why %PCNAME is the MC, iirc.

As an amusing side effect, having your party members down can help with some fights, as the braindead AI won't fuck up by hitting the enemy with spells he's strong against.

mitsuruai.jpg
 

CrimHead

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Are the Digital Devil Saga games any good? They haven't gotten much mention ITT. I liked the combat system in Nocturne alot, and would love to play another game with it. Not to mention that cool art. Anyone know the artist's same?
 
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"Digital Devil Saga artist"
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Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga Art / Pics / Pictures ...
Artwork gallery featuring official character designs by Kazuma Kaneko.

anyway...DDS 1 is...kind of alright. For a game made of dungeons, the dungeons aren't very creative or very hard, except for the occasional miniboss / boss. It was mostly back-and-forth switch throwing, really. Then again, I just killed the black guy, I think I'm halfway through the game.

I like the transformation in mid-combat mechanic - the human forms are more fragile but don't have elemental weaknesses, plus they have guns (which some demons are weak against). There's also combination attacks.

The devouring mechanic means just using a Devour-type move on a dying enemy to get more EXP, nothing worth talking about.
 

Chateaubryan

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For a SMT without fusion, DDS 1 is okay. It has Nocturne's press turn system and each characters are fully customizable : you don't lose skill when leveling up, even if you must assign a skill to each slot.

If you're not too demanding, the story is entertaining.
 

CrimHead

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:thumbsup:

shin_megaten_nocturne_conceptart_JtT0i.jpg


shin_megaten_nocturne_conceptart_D9uK7.jpg


shin_megaten_nocturne_conceptart_zZqOO.jpg


Super cool shit. Some of it even looks like it could be in planescape :D
 

KalosKagathos

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The lead SMT artist is called Kazuma Kaneko.

DDS games are good. Probably even more anime than Persona, but worth it because of the combat. No fusion at all; instead they expand on the Magatama system. All characters have fixed resistances, learn new skills through Mantras, which are sold for outrageous prices and have to be bought for each character individually. Learned skills are never forgotten, but only 8 can be set at the same time. To balance out this minor act of dumbing down, the party size is down to 3, so you have much less room for mistake. Persona-like fusion spells are in. Characters can switch between demon and human forms. In the human form they're immune to Expel attacks and have no weaknesses, can't use any skills, attack with guns that can be loaded with status effect ammo.

The end result is that random encounters are easier and bosses are harder than in Nocturne.
 
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To elaborate, the Magatama system consists of classes that give you 4-5 powers. Accumulate a certain quantity of EXP while using them and you'll learn the abilities forever (until you master a class you have to be equipped with it to use its spells).

Every character can use every class, but as prices go up as you unlock more powerful classes, you'll want to specialize so you don't end with a party full of people who can cast only basic shit - money does matter in the game, you won't have enough to buy all the classes you want.

edit:

lightbane said:
- An incredibly anoxious kid-like character.

Who? I don't remember any kid, or even a kid-like character.
 

lightbane

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Well, DDS games are more like "traditional" jrpgs, meaning:

- A plot that constantly jumps from GRIMDARK to inane/silly and back (it has some minor connections with Nocturne and Shin Megami Tensei 2 though, plus it isn't as bad as Persona 3/4).
- An incredibly abnoxious kid-like character (Sera, fuck that bitch)
- Somewhat easier battles (unlike Nocturne, you don't lose the game until all of your party members die).
- Only one ending and no choices and consequences (actually, there are, if you pick the correct ones you'll get a special character for DDS2's final dungeon, but the plot doesn't change, plus these choices are pretty obvious of what to do anyways).
-Ball-busting hard "secret" bosses, more in DDS2 (if you want a suprise and/or you think you have enough will to do it, try completing the 1st game on Normal and then try again on Hard, you'll unlock a special superboss that will be very familiar to you... Then he'll proceed to crush your party to pieces in a single turn, try to not spoiler yourself with Youtube if you can though).

DDS2 is better though, especially if you port a saved game from the 1st game, then you can start the game from Hard mode, which is more or less like Nocturne's Hard mode (including enemies that can wipe out your party instantly and can be found pretty often, also there's a secret superboss too).

EDIT:


Clockwork Knight said:
lightbane said:
- An incredibly anoxious kid-like character.

Who? I don't remember any kid, or even a kid-like character.

Meet Sera, maybe I'm confusing it with another character but if my memory serves me well you eventually will want to strangle that girl to death.

718766-sera_large.jpg
 

CrimHead

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lightbane said:
Well, DDS games are more like "traditional" jrpgs, meaning:

- A plot that constantly jumps from GRIMDARK to inane/silly and back (it has some minor connections with Nocturne and Shin Megami Tensei 2 though, plus it isn't as bad as Persona 3/4).
- An incredibly abnoxious kid-like character (Sera, fuck that bitch)
- Somewhat easier battles (unlike Nocturne, you don't lose the game until all of your party members die).
- Only one ending and no choices and consequences (actually, there are, if you pick the correct ones you'll get a special character for DDS2's final dungeon, but the plot doesn't change, plus these choices are pretty obvious of what to do anyways).
-Ball-busting hard "secret" bosses, more in DDS2 (if you want a suprise and/or you think you have enough will to do it, try completing the 1st game on Normal and then try again on Hard, you'll unlock a special superboss that will be very familiar to you... Then he'll proceed to crush your party to pieces in a single turn, try to not spoiler yourself with Youtube if you can though).

Well if it holds true to Nocturne's formula, you'll spend the majority of the game in combat anyway, so I'm not as concerned about the plot in DDS. I actually went into Nocturne expecting nothing but a dungeon crawl, albeit a good one. Given that, I came out, as you might expect, pretty blown away by the maturity of the storytelling, but of course that was never was why I picked it up in the first place (I heard it was damn unforgiving, strategic, saw it had some cool art, and it appeared overall just very different). So I think If I get around to playing it, I'll be pretty lenient with DDS in that respect.

Sounds intriguing, though. Harder boss battles than Nocturne? Think I'll check it out.
 
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lightbane said:
Meet Sera, maybe I'm confusing it with another character but if my memory serves me well you eventually will want to strangle that girl to death.

Ah, I was thinking it could be her. She starts more catatonic than childlike, really. Later she starts singing and becomes just autistic, but she doesn't bother me too much as she's the only person that displays emotions other than barely-contained-rage, does-not-understand-love, and cool-guy-indifference. The game is more or less like watching a Naruto episode where everyone is Sasuke.
 
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Just started playing Nocturne and am currently at the Ginza Underpass. The main problem I have with the combat is that I'm lacking MP after a few fights and subsequent heals; right now the main aspect of difficulty comes from MP management as opposed to tactics making the game more a war of attrition than anything else. When I get to town should I buy as many chakra drops and other MP refillers as possible? Does this change?
 

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It does, though it won't be until some time after the Ginza underpass, if you just got there the next rest stop isn't too far off.

I played a great deal of the game after learning the ability "Mana Refill," and I encountered a demon somewhere that also knew the skill and eventually fused him and a few others to make Parvati(*). Either that demon or its partner has another skill with a funny name, "Makatora," it costs 10 MP to use, and it will restore 10 MP to the target; You can use it on yourself indefinitely if you are crazy/dumb enough to do that.

If you can find/create a demon with those two abilities, and keep them around (the abilities that is), you'll pretty much be set for MP healing supplies for most of the game; and it's a real boon when exploring Amala too, which will save you quite a bit of money too to use on important things like magatama.

(*)
gsdx_20120825183432.jpg
 

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