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NWN So how do you really feel about Neverwinter Nights 1?

Which NWN campaigns did you like?

  • Neverwinter Nights

    Votes: 18 20.0%
  • Shadows of Undrentide

    Votes: 47 52.2%
  • Hordes of the Underdark

    Votes: 65 72.2%
  • Kingmaker (and/or other premium modules)

    Votes: 26 28.9%

  • Total voters
    90

d1nolore

Savant
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
662
Roguey sawyer is wrong. Stacking rules worked towards creating a more fun experience in nwn1. I actually missed them in nwn 2.
A fun experience that makes it nigh-impossible to create enjoyable combat because the gap between a moderately competent character and a character that's stacked into the stratosphere is extremely large.

Online servers fixed stacking with scripting. But in what campaign did you get so many magical items boosting the same stats that it unbalanced the game? I never experienced this and characters had ability score caps anyway at 40-something, only increased in HotU because of epic levels I believe. Also the way NWN/d&d works getting a +10 strength doesn't mean your invincible at all, you can easily get hit with finger of death, step on an electric trap, or get crit by a minotaur with a greataxe. Intact that bonus doesn't really do much in the grand scheme of things.

Even with stacking its up to the content creator on what items they put out there. If they want to add +6 dex, con, and strength to every item..well just play something that's not retarded. I don't see the issue here
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
A fun experience that makes it nigh-impossible to create enjoyable combat because the gap between a moderately competent character and a character that's stacked into the stratosphere is extremely large.
You just described 3.5 in a nutshell, and why it works on a PC environment. Also the stacking didnt actually hurt balance in the game, more like it evened out characters because average ones still had this big bonus, reducing the relative difference between two characters.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
A fun experience that makes it nigh-impossible to create enjoyable combat because the gap between a moderately competent character and a character that's stacked into the stratosphere is extremely large.
This is rank bullshit. That is like saying that a level 12 wizard would be miserable in a party with a level 15 wizard because of the disparity in 2 spell levels worth of power. Which is already an exaggeration because stats in 3.5 isn't that far different and to get an extra 2 points in a stat is far more effort than it is worth after the basic level of stat increase methods.

As a caster player who specialises in multi-threat characters, being a spell level or two lower than a pure caster is the standard mode of operation for me, and yet not only do I contribute to the game, I can easily dominate if I so choose (which I don't because I prefer to be low key). The most devastating spells that can take out entire TYPES of creatures are of spell level 2 or 3 in 3.5. In combat, with those spells, it doesn't matter if I am level 5 and the other wizard in the party is level 20. I can and WILL end fights before they can get going by taking out key enemies. All I need to do is make the ranged touch attack.

HOW you play a character in 3.5 is far more important than whether you have a min-maxed character or not. Dramaqueens sneering at min-maxers are nothing but rank incompetent shits trying to look down on others from their ivory towers.
 

d1nolore

Savant
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
662
Yeah Min/maxing isn't even that effective in nwn, the only real dump stat is charisma. Otherwise all others will hurt you. For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Even stacking spell effects are limited by often short durations. You're a monster melee cleric for about 6 rounds or until someone starts hitting you with dispell, then you start to fade. Once you've shot your spell load you're pretty fucked.

So there's a shit ton of room for smart tactics, rather than just linear mechanics.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)
 

d1nolore

Savant
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
662
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.

Fighter bonus feats will net you chances at stuff like Iron Will/Epic Will and so on, yes, but you'll probably want to burn a bunch of feats on stuff like Knockdown/IKD, Imp. Crit, WF/WS and EWF/EWS, and if you go Weapon Master you'll need to burn feats for the prerequisites for that. Going dual-wield? Either drop a level in Ranger or burn feats for TWF/ITWF and Ambi. Being a martial means you burn feats in order to not be a complete crashing bore to play. Meanwhile wizards and sorcs (and to a lesser extent clerics and druids) get to be fun and use feats for fun shit at the same time, because 3.x fucking loves casters and hates martials.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.
There aren't that make Will boosting feats. Iron Will and maybe two of the 1st level only feats are it.

It is better to take a level in Bard and then levels in Dragon Disciple if you want to ace Will saves. That would give you a respectable Will save in the teens.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.

Fighter bonus feats will net you chances at stuff like Iron Will/Epic Will and so on, yes, but you'll probably want to burn a bunch of feats on stuff like Knockdown/IKD, Imp. Crit, WF/WS and EWF/EWS, and if you go Weapon Master you'll need to burn feats for the prerequisites for that. Going dual-wield? Either drop a level in Ranger or burn feats for TWF/ITWF and Ambi. Being a martial means you burn feats in order to not be a complete crashing bore to play. Meanwhile wizards and sorcs (and to a lesser extent clerics and druids) get to be fun and use feats for fun shit at the same time, because 3.x fucking loves casters and hates martials.
Not really. As a caster, you have to keep resting all the time, and the 10 second rest thing in NWN is a bloody pain in the ass. A martial type would just keep going and going and going like the Energiser Bunny.

A borderline broken build in NWN is Fighter 4/Bard 1/Red Dragon Disciple 10 and then Fighter all the way. This way, you can utilise the Fighter bonus feats to gain Epic feats when you hit level 21, you get strong Will save bonuses from Bard and RDD, and you have enough pre-Epic feats to muck around with TWF/ITWF and still get all the fun stuff like Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Knockdown/Greater Knockdown, etc. I used that build to breeze through all campaigns, including HotU, and the fire immunity of the RDD is gold for that last battle vs Mephi.
 

PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.
There aren't that make Will boosting feats. Iron Will and maybe two of the 1st level only feats are it.

It is better to take a level in Bard and then levels in Dragon Disciple if you want to ace Will saves. That would give you a respectable Will save in the teens.

I'd rather go Sorc because of True Strike, trying to remember if True Strike suffers from armor-related spell failure or not
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
For example dumping wisdom as a fighter is all fun until you keep failing your will saves. Dumping intell means you can forget about tumble, search, heal, whatever. Everything has a penalty. Its actually very well balanced.

Honestly, your Will saving throws are probably going to be poor to abysmal whether you dump Wis or not unless you picked up some levels of something that has it as its primary saving throw. (Slippery Mind is generally a useless feat for this reason.)

Yeah Wisdom would be the second dump stat I guess. But as a fighter you can afford to take many save boosting feats thus why dump wisdom.
There aren't that make Will boosting feats. Iron Will and maybe two of the 1st level only feats are it.

It is better to take a level in Bard and then levels in Dragon Disciple if you want to ace Will saves. That would give you a respectable Will save in the teens.

I'd rather go Sorc because of True Strike, trying to remember if True Strike suffers from armor-related spell failure or not
Bard is better for skill points, hp, bonus Ref save, Use Magic Device and Tumble. As a Fighter type, you aren't going to be too bothered with to-hit bonuses even with TWF. The RDD strength bonus more than makes up for any loss of True Strike, and 1 level of caster by the time you get RDD isn't going to be significant in any way.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
I liked all the campaigns, HotU was clearly the better, but I also liked the premium modules (Pirates of the Sword Coast, Wyvern Crown etc) and many non-premium modules too (e.g. Darkness over Daggerford).

NWN was what got me into RPGs in the first place and I'll always like it for that. It wouldn't make my top 10 RPGs but I liked the D20 system, I liked the large amount of content, and I think it is unfairly maligned around here.

It definitely does not need an enhanced edition though.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
I liked all the campaigns, HotU was clearly the better, but I also liked the premium modules (Pirates of the Sword Coast, Wyvern Crown etc) and many non-premium modules too (e.g. Darkness over Daggerford).

NWN was what got me into RPGs in the first place and I'll always like it for that. It wouldn't make my top 10 RPGs but I liked the D20 system, I liked the large amount of content, and I think it is unfairly maligned around here.

It definitely does not need an enhanced edition though.
3.x is unfairly maligned because the loudest twats tend to be the dramaqueens. They want to rule with their blind, crippled, Dex 1, drooling, blender fucking imbeciles and are frustrated by those people who believe, quite legitimately, that adventuring is an inherently VERY dangerous profession and only the best of the best would survive for long. Hence, the dramaqueens come up with the cries of powergaming and min-maxing and all that, not realising that even in real life, their quite accurate alter egos would never be within coo-ee of even entering the Olympics, let alone winning it.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Actually he right. Its just that nwn does away with a lot of the things that make casters amazing. While providing good enough items that martial classes can keep up.
In pure combat terms, martial classes are quite viable. DnD is a team game, something that many people seem to forget in their quest to either make the most powerful character possible or make the most infantile and crippled character possible. It is a far better use of resources for the casters to buff the martial classes, debuff the enemy and control the flow of combat than for them to deal with the threats directly (e.g., via direct damage). This is especially noticeable in 3.5 where the hp bloat was tremendous.

Remember that up to 2nd Ed, your max possible hp was 10d10+con bonus+3/level after level 10. 3.x took away that cap while at the same time did not increase the damage cap of direct damage spells. On top of that, they made the Heal spell 10/level up to 150 max. A single Heal spell would negate damage from an average of 4 fireballs or 2 delayed blast fireballs. Direct damage simply became too weak vs the hp bloat to work well at levels above 10 or so.

Martial classes, on the other hand, got quite a boost in the 3.x system with respect to the damage and to-hit bonuses they get. On top of that, they get more attacks per round than in previous editions and then you add in size increases affecting melee damage and the casters having multiple ways to increase size, martial classes are basically most efficient at removing hp. Swinging a sword is far more efficient than casting 4 fireballs and if the enemy casts a Heal spell, well, you just keep swinging. Or use the bloody 8d6 base damage great club the wizard just enchanted.

Of course, the casters have other ways of instantly incapacitating enemies than removing hp, and that is where the battle caster really shine. However, no matter how many spell slots you have, you will never have enough (especially if you are also doing the buffing and utility casting on the side), so your great effectiveness at disabling enemies is limited to a few at a time, and you really want to choose the battle(s) you use them in carefully.

That said, the most dangerous level 1 wizard in 3.x is one wielding a scythe and loaded to the gills with Sleep spells.
 

Nerevar

N'wah
Patron
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Jul 10, 2017
Messages
1,128
Location
Balmora
Make the Codex Great Again! Pathfinder: Wrath
My favourite builds are gish types that either a Pal/Sorc/RDD or the slightly less cheesy Fighter/WM/Wizard.

Melee is very competitive on NWN1 with the dev critting also Rogues are very tough with the crippling sneak attacks one round of those can destroy a fighters damage/ab.

I will always have fond memories for NWN 1 because of the variety of character builds and crazy adventures I have on this game the modules are just great. NWN2 not so much the characters never really got very powerful just looking at "Battle of the builds" the most powerful characters people made and they are not very impressive.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Remember that up to 2nd Ed, your max possible hp was 10d10+con bonus+3/level after level 10. 3.x took away that cap while at the same time did not increase the damage cap of direct damage spells. On top of that, they made the Heal spell 10/level up to 150 max. A single Heal spell would negate damage from an average of 4 fireballs or 2 delayed blast fireballs. Direct damage simply became too weak vs the hp bloat to work well at levels above 10 or so.

Direct damage spells didnt quite work unless you were a dedicated blaster. But thats not where the game is at as a caster anyway. Casters had plenty of spells that were save or suck, or just plain suck. They didnt need martial classes


Martial classes, on the other hand, got quite a boost in the 3.x system with respect to the damage and to-hit bonuses they get.
Actually not really, martial classes used to have every attack at max. This impacted heavily on both their chance to hit and ultimately their damage. You could dish out impressive amounts of damage by mid/late game, but monsters at those levels laughed at martials anyway. Great defenses and hp scores there.


On top of that, they get more attacks per round than in previous editions
Not really, also they butchered dual wielding.

and then you add in size increases affecting melee damage and the casters having multiple ways to increase size
You do realize that in 2nd edition enlarge gave a much, much bigger damage boost.

martial classes are basically most efficient at removing hp.
Which is by far the least effective way to kill anything in 3.X
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,138
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
39 Druid /1 Monk was pretty awesome. Bear form -> Elemental form -> Iron Golem (loads of immunities, including negative energy, death) Shapechange spell pre-epic, Dragon Shape at Epic.
Due to high caster level didn't have to worry about dispelling too much (except from dedicated wizzies) and Spell Resistance spell made him mostly immune to magic (except Breaches... but he was really effective at knocking wizzies down). Large size after changing + heavy strenght even allowed him to shrug off most Bigby's. BAB kinda sucked... but due to huge size after changing, spamming Improved Knockdown on medium sized opponents gave him +8 AB (+12 AB vs small sized opponents).
And I really liked creating a "death zone", stacking 7 different aoe immobilization spells triggering a save every round. And Storm of Vengeance was just sick.

Of course, that build only shines in low and medium magic worlds (preferably up to +5 magic items). When your every armor piece can be enchanted to +7 or more and you rock +10 weapons (like HotU), shapechanging kinda sucks. Then again, in such cases, the balance tends to fall apart anyway.

I also really enjoyed playing a Fighter 4 / RDD 10 / Bard rest. 4 base attacks, good strenght, improved invisibility, haste, keen edge and Bard Song + Curse Song to buff AB and friendly skills, debuff enemy AC by 5, destroy enemy skills (like discipline). Issues with Arcane Spell failure... but can use Still Spell.
Only a little bit weaker in melee then a Fighter focused character, but a lot more versatile and party friendly.
 
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Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Remember that up to 2nd Ed, your max possible hp was 10d10+con bonus+3/level after level 10. 3.x took away that cap while at the same time did not increase the damage cap of direct damage spells. On top of that, they made the Heal spell 10/level up to 150 max. A single Heal spell would negate damage from an average of 4 fireballs or 2 delayed blast fireballs. Direct damage simply became too weak vs the hp bloat to work well at levels above 10 or so.

Direct damage spells didnt quite work unless you were a dedicated blaster. But thats not where the game is at as a caster anyway. Casters had plenty of spells that were save or suck, or just plain suck. They didnt need martial classes


Martial classes, on the other hand, got quite a boost in the 3.x system with respect to the damage and to-hit bonuses they get.
Actually not really, martial classes used to have every attack at max. This impacted heavily on both their chance to hit and ultimately their damage. You could dish out impressive amounts of damage by mid/late game, but monsters at those levels laughed at martials anyway. Great defenses and hp scores there.


On top of that, they get more attacks per round than in previous editions
Not really, also they butchered dual wielding.

and then you add in size increases affecting melee damage and the casters having multiple ways to increase size
You do realize that in 2nd edition enlarge gave a much, much bigger damage boost.

martial classes are basically most efficient at removing hp.
Which is by far the least effective way to kill anything in 3.X
DD spells worked up to 2nd Ed. They stopped working in 3.x because of the hp bloat. Which is what I said.

Every attack at max doesn't mean much if your max number of attacks was 2 (more if you are a pure fighter with the dots in the right weapons). In 3.5, you can get meaningful attacks with all 4 attacks at higher levels, and any martial class gets them.

Dual wielding in 3.x was butchered, that is undeniable. I always change the rules of TWF to make using 3 feats on it worth 3 feats and not just bring you back to (sub)par.

Enlarge doesn't mean the Enlarge spell. Enlarging things also includes virtual enlargement like Greater Mighty Wallop, which increases the damage of your blunt weapon by 1 size per 4 levels (hence the 8d6 base damage great club). Enlargement of different things stack, so if you enlarge your weapon and then enlarged the person, you have something truly serious on your hands.

Removing hp might be least effective but most consistent. It is also pretty simple to make. I have a martial build that can do about 50 damage per blow, which mean he triggers the massive damage save every single successful attack (and with that kind of a strength bonus, you can bet he is landing most of the time). That is just using a bog standard dwarven waraxe. I shudder to think what he can do with a warmace with the wizard dropping a Greater Mighty Wallop on it.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
DD spells worked up to 2nd Ed. They stopped working in 3.x because of the hp bloat. Which is what I said.
As i said, damage spells dont matter.

In 3.5, you can get meaningful attacks with all 4 attacks at higher levels, and any martial class gets them.
It doesnt matter, theres a ton of hp bloat in 3.5, the relative damage went down. as i said, most ineffective way to kill anyone is to reduce their hp to 0.

Removing hp might be least effective but most consistent. It is also pretty simple to make. I have a martial build that can do about 50 damage per blow, which mean he triggers the massive damage save every single successful attack (and with that kind of a strength bonus, you can bet he is landing most of the time). That is just using a bog standard dwarven waraxe. I shudder to think what he can do with a warmace with the wizard dropping a Greater Mighty Wallop on it.
Stat damage is more reliable, so is reaching impossible to save DCs. And you have the defenses magic affords you as well.
I had a character that could do anywhere from 500 to 1000 damage per round, it meant shit.
Then i had a wizard of the same level that didnt do damage, he dominated, didnt need a stupid warrior ruining everything.

You are forgetting a lot of things. First in 2nd edition martial classes had the best saving throws. Second the small pool of hp coupled with the largely static AC meant that anything died in one round even if you didnt minmax your character, and that every attack actually landed, and that casters autofailed concentration on taking any damage from any source. Third, martials were the only ones getting a big bonus from constitution. Fourth, you could add dex to AC. Fifth, exceptional STR bonus was also both rare and big, and exclusive to martials.

Yeah in 3rd edition fighters can manage bigger numbers, but in the big picture bigger numbers mean fuck all.
 
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PorkBarrellGuy

Guest
A terrible engine that houses a staggering amount of content that is appreciated for its chatrooms and CYOA paths.
Is the Aurora engine actually shit? In the little bit I've worked with it, it doesn't seem too bad, though the most I've done is a test module or two toying with dialogue and creating items/critters and such.
 

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