So, Arx Fatalis...

[PorkyThePaladin]

For what it's worth (and I should probably start a separate thread on this, maybe will later), I think there is a definite over-emphasis on stats in the old-school RPG community. Modern RPGs might mostly suck and have less stats, but that is not necessarily a causal relationship. My 2 cents are that stats emerged back in the PnP days when they were a way to enforce different roles between different human players AND between different playthroughs for a given player. This was a good thing back then because you had a very limited playground (people's imagination basically and some paper) so strict roles defined by stats brought variety and flavor to these games, which would otherwise be boring if everyone could do everything.

But with video games, there is a potential to create very complex worlds with complex systems where you no longer need stats (or at least stats to the same degree) to enforce these roles. If the systems in these games (combat, magic, stealth, diplomacy) are complex enough to require the player to master them over time that can serve as a valid mechanism to separate roles on their own without explicit stats.

So I do agree with Ash that games like UU/Arx did a lot to move gaming toward that potential by creating more interactive and logical worlds, something that heavily stat-based often admired here did not do at all.

 

[V_K]

If n instances of the forward rune have the same effect as a single instance, then you may have multiple distinct forms (syntax), but still only one actual spell being produced (semantics). The Wikipedia description reads like including multiple occurrences of the same rune would not affect the spell

You're reading it wrong, it most certainly would. If you cast a "forward+damage" spell, you'd damage an enemy directly in front of you; if you cast "forward+forward+damage", it would damage the tile two spaces from you. "Forward+damage+forward+heal" damages the target in front and heals the one after them etc. It actually gets pretty fun and firework-y when you cast something like "missile+[effect1]+surround+missile+[effect2]+forward+missile+[effect3]".

 

[Serus]

Well, some (very few) blobbers don't even have grid movement anyway, so I guess so. Still haven't encountered a blobber with high levels of world interactivity (like picking up and throwing objects around in any direction) nor z axis gameplay though, and you don't control your party like you control your singular unit here, you merely issue them commands in a simplified manner. That's what is inherent to blobbers specifically. Grid-based movement was a traditional thing that while still common is not used in them all. We kinda skipped onto exclusively discussing blobbers when it was traditional dungeon crawlers (with grid movement in particular) more what I had in mind, even though the distinction is near negligible as most blobbers feature grid movement.

Grid movement has its own advantages over free movment in a crpg, it is a trade-off. Grid based crawlers for exemple allow for level design that actually can be mapped by the player. In fact i can't think of a non-grid based crawler that doesn't have an automap (UU1+2, Arx, Wizardry 8, Daggerfall's dungeons) - and it is required in those games because mapping non-grid based and fully 3D environments is a pain in the ass at best, virtually impossible at worst. The abstraction of a grid based movement also allows some design that is impossible in free movment ones. Have you ever seen a spinning trap in a non grid based movement crawler ? If there is one then ok but i didn't.
Other thing you skipped very conveniently an is a very obvious one - by having only one character (which admittedly helps "immersion" and might also help other elements of gameplay) sacrifices a lot of potential complexity that you are supposedly so fond off. Complexity in character creation, in combat and potentially even in other aspects of gameplay that are present in blobbers but not in games like UUs or Arx. So no you can't "control your party like you control your single character" - mr obvious, thank you for reminding us but neither you can't have multiple characters if you have only one (no i am mr obvious :D), lol. You see ? It goes both ways.
I could go on, but frankly i'm, not the best person to name all the advantages and disadvantages of grid vs free movement or party vs one character in crpg. We had threads in the past dealing with those issues - look for them.
So no, single character, free movement, fully 3D, dungeon crawlers are not better or more "advanced" (lol - what does it even mean ?) than blobber ones, these are all just different "rulesets" used to make games, just like perspective or setting is. They all add limitations and possibilities for developers. There is no objective "better" in this case. Same way 2D fight games aren't inherently worse than 3D ones or 2D platformers aren't worse than 3D ones, etc..., etc... even if the latter appeared as a genre later than the former.
In before "you are a dinosaur" - personally i like the idea of a blobber with free movement most (like Wiz 8 did), not classical grid movement but not because i think grid movement is "worse" or doesn't have its own advantages but because this is a preference of mine. And so are your preferences - just that, subjective likes and dislikes. And this is really all i have to say on this. I am starting to believe that if you are not trolling then you are one of the people who seriously thinks: "real time is better than turn based and turn based was only invented because of technical limitations" kind of guy.

 

[Serus]

For what it's worth (and I should probably start a separate thread on this, maybe will later), I think there is a definite over-emphasis on stats in the old-school RPG community. Modern RPGs might mostly suck and have less stats, but that is not necessarily a causal relationship. My 2 cents are that stats emerged back in the PnP days when they were a way to enforce different roles between different human players AND between different playthroughs for a given player. This was a good thing back then because you had a very limited playground (people's imagination basically and some paper) so strict roles defined by stats brought variety and flavor to these games, which would otherwise be boring if everyone could do everything.

But with video games, there is a potential to create very complex worlds with complex systems where you no longer need stats (or at least stats to the same degree) to enforce these roles. If the systems in these games (combat, magic, stealth, diplomacy) are complex enough to require the player to master them over time that can serve as a valid mechanism to separate roles on their own without explicit stats.

So I do agree with Ash that games like UU/Arx did a lot to move gaming toward that potential by creating more interactive and logical worlds, something that heavily stat-based often admired here did not do at all.

You raise an interesting issue (but you are of curse completely wrong ) but so far away from the subject of this thread i'll just have to pass not to derail it even more than i already am guilty of doing. In addtion this also was discussed on Codex before. As everything else... several times probably.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I know this place has a strong autist base, but are all you people really complaining about how hard the rune drawing system is in Arx? It's just drawing out basic geometric shapes, like lines, circles, angles, and you don't even have to get it exact, just close enough for the game to recognize it.

Actually some of them didn't work properly even if you got the pin perfect replica of the template. I've read somewhere that this may have to do something with different resolutions and suggested to play it on lower res.
Anyhow, saying that this mechanic is good for 'teh iemrshunz' is no way different than saying the same about Wee controller. Do you really like to wave your hands frantically to really feel that you're playing tennis simulator or something? Imo rpgs are good because they are abstract and can be played leisurely. I don't despise action games that challenges hand-eye coordination, but they for me don't seem more immersive just because of that. This argument was used a lot by bethestards during the Fallout franchise acquisition meltdown.

 

[Old One]

I finished this (with Arx Libertatis) a few days ago, and I found it very enjoyable. I like the odd, claustrophobic setting and the creative magic system. I didn't have much trouble with the runes; they all worked fine. At worst I had to repeat a couple of them three or four times to get them to register.

I also thought the stealth system was quite good - a bit like Thief, but much harsher about light exposure. I could never get pickpocketing to work though, unless I used the invisibility spell or a potion. In that case it was foolproof, which made it too easy.

Otherwise, very good.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

I finished this (with Arx Libertatis) a few days ago, and I found it very enjoyable. I like the odd, claustrophobic setting and the creative magic system. I didn't have much trouble with the runes; they all worked fine. At worst I had to repeat a couple of them three or four times to get them to register.

I also thought the stealth system was quite good - a bit like Thief, but much harsher about light exposure. I could never get pickpocketing to work though, unless I used the invisibility spell or a potion. In that case it was foolproof, which made it too easy.

Otherwise, very good.

Yeah, really nice game. I played through Ultima Underworld after Arx, and although UU has the better gameplay and better puzzle/level design, Arx has the better atmosphere/setting, magic and graphics.

 

[Ivan]

go w magic with this as first time right?

 

[Old One]

go w magic with this as first time right?

Probably, yes. Magic is powerful in the long run, and fun. The casting mechanics are the most unique part of the game. Melee combat is...interesting. I didn't love it, but it's got a relatively slow-pace I enjoyed because it's a bit more thoughtful than simply hacking away until your target is dead. I never really tried missile weapons. A pure stealth character seems like it would be hard to play - more hard than fun, I would think.

Magic also adds the challenge of finding all the runes you use to cast spells. They're scattered around the environment and you have to discover them one at a time.

 

[Ivan]

sounds great. thanks man.

 

[Ivan]

Had my first great moment: as a pure mage, I lured the Goblins back to the first area with the portcullis, intending to trap them in the room, but I guess they got caught UNDER it and died. :D

any tips? should i be pumping vitality AT ALL? or just focus on my mage skills

 

[coldcrow]

Don't overthink it and enjoy the ride. A few points in vitality won't hurt later on. Heavier armor and weapons have STR requirements.

 

[anvi]

I didn't really like this game. I played it for maybe a week and got probably somewhere past half way but not near the end. I only wanted to play it because I heard about the "spell drawing" system, which kinda worked, but in reality was pretty crappy and was a pain to use. They should have let me store more spells so I didn't have to do the same shape drawing a billion times an hour. I also wish there were more spells in general, and maybe a hotbar for some spells and some of them had to be drawn. Also besides the combat, I didn't like anything else really either, the environments were boring etc. Not a terrible game but I didn't like it.

 

[Ivan]

Question: if I see a blue wall am I to assume that there must be something to it? even if I see no pressue plate, lever, or switch around?

Would have liked a Quest log, ran into an imprisoned Troll but fuck if I know who he mentions has the key.

enjoying the game once I found Magic Missle. nothing poses a threat for now. right now I've returned the Idol to the Troll King.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Ivan
you will find pickaxe somewhere later, or buy it. P useful tool (also to dig gems).
Magic is p. much mandatory in this game considering enemies later in the game. You will know which one... They either die from fireballs or not die in melee.

 

[coldcrow]

You CAN beat them in melee, but you have to get gud at it.

 

[Ivan]

blue walls: im not talking about the ones where the PC says CANT BREAK IT W BARE HANDS. some walls are just blue without any text prompt.

there was one earlier, the one with the pressure plate, but I found one w no prompt and no plates around.

 

[Old One]

blue walls: im not talking about the ones where the PC says CANT BREAK IT W BARE HANDS. some walls are just blue without any text prompt.

As far as I remember, all the blue walls do something, but it's not always possible for you to activate them at the time you find them. Sometimes you have to approach them from the other side, or wait for some event to happen for them to open. If you find one and you can't open it, you don't need to waste a lot of time trying to figure out how it works. Odds are you'll find out eventually.

This is not to say you should not try to open them. Sometimes there is a hidden switch or some other way of getting through...

 

[Ash]

This game should have earned awards for its sound design and gameplay. Possibly the most underrated Immersive Sim.

 

[Metro]

First time I played was basically a pure melee build. It's certainly possible.

 

[deama]

Would have liked a Quest log, ran into an imprisoned Troll but fuck if I know who he mentions has the key.

There is a quest log. When you open your book thing, one of the tabs at the top of it is the quest log section.

I don't remember an imprisoned troll, you on about a goblin instead maybe?

 

[Old One]

There's an imprisoned troll too. You won't find him if you've already resolved the miners' strike.

 

[deama]

There's an imprisoned troll too. You won't find him if you've already resolved the miners' strike.

Damn, I don't remember that part, I must've just ignored him then.

Oh, now I remember! Yeah, I mostly just ignored him...

 

[Sneaky Seal]

Thanks for bringing this game up.

I remember how being able to kill a pig, take its meat and bake it by simply puting it into fire blew my 10-year old mind.

Will probably go pick it up on Steam (and try to beat the first quest of making it run on my PC).

 

[Sykar]

Is Arx Fatalis actually legally free to DL these days? There are some sites offering a free DL but I have seen it also on GoG and Steam for 5 bucks.