So, anyone playing League of Legends?

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I have plenty of doubt. Look at how long I (unrightfully) doubted Shyvana. I also claimed (rightfully) that Alistar was a great champion when everybody hated him.

But Twitch has been proven time and against to be complete crap in almost all situations. The fact that Ulminati even uses the argument "but he's crazy when fed!" makes me think we're back to level 1 LoL-arguments.

Also, Berekän:

Den som kun ta'r spøg for spøg
Og alvor kun alvorligt
Han og hun har faktisk fattet
Begge dele dårligt

Twitch is - under the right circumstances - very, very good.

In thise case, the right circumstances are teammates who are willing to help you set up a few early ganks. Twitches level 2 ganking kit at level 2-3 is among the best in LoL. It features a very strong slow, a nuke in expunge that will finish off a LOT of players with 3-400hp worth of damage after they flash to their tower and the ultimate gapcloser (stealth) for initiation. Furthermore, since the prevalent opinion seems to be "lol, twitch sux!" he is an unusual pick that will simultaneously catch a lot of players off-guard and cause people to underestimate him.

Twitch is crazy when fed. Many jungers are crazy with fed.
BUT WITH COMPETENT TEAMMATES TWITCH IS ONE OF THE CHAMPIONS YOU WILL MOST CONSISTENTLY GET CRAZY FED WITH.

As an additional bonus, the enemy team will often sink huge amount of sums into pink wards you can harvest with an oracles. Many of these wards will be planted outside their lanes, meaning you can kill them at no risk to yourself. This in turn means that even when you're not ganking, you have a passive presence in all lanes as people drain their wallets to ward more often and using more expensive wards than to protect against a shyv, udyr or lee. Furthermore, twitch has the same effect as a Sorakabot-Eve in that he forces the enemy team to play extremely defensive even when he isn't there.

If lanes become too defensive to gank, a twitch with wriggles is infinitely sustainable in jungle without blue/red (can go to his team) and has clear times comparable to trundle/kitty stance udyr. In a teamfight, he is able to position (almost) prefectly without havign to worry about being pinged by the enemy team before CC is already flying and his first 7 shots thanks to his ult will have the longest autoattack range in the game and hit multiple targets. (Spreading that infinity edge love).

I know you distrust any build that isn't used in a competitive tournament, but seriously, give the guy a chance. Check out phoenix0000ff on jewtube, he does jungle twitch videos against good players. While he hasn't got a ranked ELO himself, he does play normal draft picks and about 75% of his opponents in the last 3-4 videos (I looked them up) have ELOs in the 1500-1700 range. About 3 weeks ago he carried some rioters on livestream. Considering that phoenixblue is rocking players with a higher GRUNKER level than yours on a regular basis, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the rat if I were you.

In fact, going off on a tangent for a bit, I think a common mistake that many, many people do is pretend they're 2k+ ELO players when trying to determine what is viable and right for them to do. Realize what bracket your account is playing in, predict how good your opposition is going to be (probably about as good as you) and play accordingly. That's why I always got Mejai on Morgana when we played together. (I could rely on my opponents making enough mistakes that I could fill it). Stealth WILL catch the people you play against off-guard. If you practice a bit, you WILL get horribly fed more often than not. And you WILL be able to sit back and say "8 mins, 5 kills. GG, game won by twitch". (Granted, the game won't be over by then. But if you can give all 3 lanes 1-2 kills, you certainly have the advantage and it's very much your game to lose at that point).


Also, Berekan reads Spanish, not Danish.

Nice strawman, but I have my own builds for my champs. I don't even follow guides. It would mean ruination for me mid in our ranked games if I just blindly copied builds from teams that have those builds because they correspond to a playstyle and an overall strategy that our team couldn't copy even if they tried.

My mains in ranked are Galio, Morgana, Annie, Cassiopeia, Ziggs and Brand, and we're testing Veigar at the minute as a counterpick. Only one of these is used consistently by tournament teams, the others are niche or used less often.

We use Galio because most people aren't that used to playing against him, and I do well with him against my consistant bane LeBlanc (I'm so shit at playing against him). Playing Galio also means we can "trick" people into picking Kassadin.

We play Morgana to enforce a "neutral" lane - that is, don't lose it, just win it in farm and gank a bunch.

We play Brand and Annie for our team-fight comps (though we're moving away from this strategy).

We play Cassiopeia and Ziggs for lane dominance.

Veigar we're testing because we frequently seem to go into late-game, amongst other things.

Neither of these strategies except the Cassiopeia one is very popular on high ELOs, though Galio is used sometimes as a counterpick and Morgana is sometimes used too.

The opponents we played back then are complete scrubs compared to a decent ranked team on EUNE. So were we. Mejai's is win-more anyway, the game's we won with you having Mejai's we would have won without Mejai's too.

Alas, Piet Hein doesn't translate well, and it was the most fitting quote for the situation. Indeed with the above you seemed to have miss the point of the quote. You have fun with your Twitch, seriously. I'm not saying OMG SCRUB DON'T PLAY TWITCH. I'm making a case that he's a bad pick if you want to win in a "serious" game (i.e. ranked). This goes to an extreme degree for solo queue (because your team mates probably won't fit their playstyle to him) but it also goes for 5v5 on any decent ELO because people there will know how to play against him.

He is easy to counter, utter crap in team fights, his ganks are not that threatening and if he doesn't get fed he's completely useless. Playing Twitch is a complete gamble on your opponent's lack of skills. If he doesn't do very well, your team is fucked. And this is point, isn't it?:

Other junglers with as good level 2 ganks, as good a presence in the jungle and faster clear-times will be an asset to the team even when they get a bad early game. Twitch on the other hand becomes a colossal ball and chain.

Your point was the same as Ulm's, that me and Juul are just tools that blindly follow whatever flavour of the month advice comes from the pros. I've stated both in response to you and Ulm how that is complete bullshit. If you want to argue without the strawmen, sure, let's go. If not, well then what's the point?

I don't build it on her anymore. See, I'm adjusting my build to the opposition I face. I don't face 2k+ players, so my strategies revolve around the 1400-1700 crowd I usually play with and against. I was going to adress the rest of your post, but seeing as you only bothered to cut out and selectively respond to the non-twitch part of mine, I decided not to bother.

[edit]

I see Grunker edited his post after I made mine. But meh. His mind is made up and at this point it seems nothing short of someone featured streaming a twitch game on solomid is likely to change it.

In other news, our NA ranked 5-man premade broke 1450 elo yesterday with a jungle twitch leading in KDA.

As do I, what's your point?

Because fuck you if I'm going to continue this discussion in a reasonable manner when you and Berekän seem more interested in telling us WHY we don't like Twitch (you're just tools of the pros!). Scratch the idiotic strawmen and my interest in this discussion might return. Before that though, I'm fine with just yelling each other if that's what you want

Also, in case you didn't notice, this:

Is a short but concise respond to your points about Twitch.

This is why I usually add an [edit] tag when I make edits in my posts. Pointing out things that were added in after someone wrote their response is pretty dickish. I love refreshing a page after I make a post to see the post I responded to grow in length.

This is a response to the edit you just made in yours.

Summary: Adjust your build/champ picks to the ELO you're in.

Summary: You used to be a noob, playing against noobs

Summary: And so I made sure I used a build that would work really well against noobs.

You tell me. I made a point you claim you already follow, but your counterargument seemed to boil down to "You are a noob."


1400 ELO players make mistakes. Twitch is good at punishing mistakes. You are a 1400 ELO player. Twitch works good against your opposition

Let's see:

1) There are champions as good as punishing mistakes as Twitch.

2) There are games where 1400 ELO players will not make these mistakes.

3) In these games, Twitch becomes useless in an almost Eve-aspiring manner, while the other champions can still carry their weight.

4) The conclusion is pretty damn easy.

Shyv can not turn invisible to bypass wards (or force the enemy to spend twice the amount of gold on more + more expensive wards since they'd have to ward both approach and the lane itself. Once shyvana is in position in a gank, she does roughly the same damage as twitch, unless the enemy jukes around minions (twitch is ranged and less vulnerable to bad pathfinding) or flashes away (where twitch can still expunge). Although twitches early damage (lv 2-4ish, especially level 2) is vastly higher than shyvs due to attack speed steroid and expunge

Their stickiness is comparable (svyvs movespeed boost is the same as twitch'es slow), except twitch'es slow will also allow his lanemate to catch up with the target. finally, Twitch can more reliably show up between the enemy and their tower, forcing them to move past him, whereas shyvana will often find herself catching up to enemies.

So compared to shyvana in the laning phase, twitch has better initiation/gapclosing (especially before top/mid have had their first bluepill), better stickiness and higher damage output. This equates a better ganking kit, a higher chance of getting kills during ganks and therefore a bigger likelyhood of getting fed.

Am I getting my point across?

[edit]

Sure, I've had games where I didn't get horribly fed. I bought a wriggles and farmed. (several enemy junglers make excellent targets for farming too, especially early on). For comparsion, in games where I get fed I have boots+2x dorans + IE at the 18-19 minute mark. In games where I farm instead I have boots + wriggles + 1x dorans + IE at the 24-25 minute mark.

It appends your post after you post without checking if something happened while you type. that's why I (usually) use the "post reply" button in a new window and refresh the thread before hitting reply.

Also, Ezreal IS trash.

Bratislav apparently fails to comprehend we're talking about JUNGLING, not laning twitch. Better luck next time.

[edit]

Should probably respond to grunkers post as well.

1) My initial post on this subject was marvelling over the fact that nearly NOONE seems to be as good as punishing mistakes as twitch, since he is so absurdly good at getting into position if played smartly

2) Yes there are, but those are few. And the only way not to make mistakes vs twitch is to play extremely conservatively. This in itself gives competent lanemates an advantage. See sorakabot eve and how riot eventually nerfed her into oblivion because of the pressure she put on enemy lanes to stick to their tower.

3) Twitch with wriggles farms just fine. A gankless game delays my IE by 4-5 minutes. Even after the laning phase, a permanently MIA twitch means squishies can't go solo to pick up farm unless they want to risk melting. It's a variant of the CUZ OMG GLOBAL MAP PRESENCE argument some people use for Shen.

4) Yes, yes it is.

Level 6 twitch. 26/4/0. Armpen reds. Flat armor yellows. Attack speed or scaling MR blues. Lifesteal quints. Boots 1 + wriggles lantern + 1-2 hp pots. Smite. He can solo dragon no prob.

Ok.