Skyrim Creation Kit

[TheCatsofSanktPetersburg]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid...crolls-V-Skyrim-Creation-Kit-Workshop-Preview

So is this better than Morrowinds?

Not a mod, but I'm very happy to see that The Elder Scrolls is finally popular. (something I would've never expected a year ago.)

 

[Skittles]

Auto-applied mods.

Griefing opportunities are dancing through my dreams.

 

[Zed]

For people who don't want to visit the Escapist:


The dialog editor looks pretty nice.

 

[racofer]

They have that kind of dialog editor and they can't make something remotely good within the main game?

 

[Serious_Business]

I've been intensely thinking about this, if I take a shit, am I creative? I mean a shit is an esthetic creation isn't it? It's certainly something I created

Oh yeah baby, give me some of that sharp wit

 

[felipepepe]

Finaly mods can start really fixing it.

 

[MMXI]

Ah, perfect. An image I can link to while explaining why dialogue sucks cock in RPGs.

 

[Jasede]

>hail
Hello.

>where is the smith?
What?

>directions
What?

>help
What?

>where smith
He's downtown, just past the west gate.

>where is the west gate?
What?

---

Name Job Bye
Name: Joel, Sir.

Name Job Bye
Job: I till the fields.

Name Job Fields Bye
Fields: 'tis hard work because of the headcrabs.

Name Job Fields Headcrabs Bye
Headcrabs: Best beware!

Name Job Fields Headcrabs Bye
Bye: Fare thee well!

--

A: Oh, brave adventurers, will you help me find my lost locket?

* Yes, naturally. And here are 100 gold pieces, you seem in need.
* Yes, gladly.
* Yes, for a price.
* Maybe, I need to think about it.
* Die, you n'wah!
* I killed your daughter, raped your cat and now I will eat your son in front of you!
* Goodbye

 

[TheCatsofSanktPetersburg]

 

[MMXI]

>hail
Hello.

>where is the smith?
What?

>directions
What?

>help
What?

>where smith
He's downtown, just past the west gate.

>where is the west gate?
What?

I'm not so sure this is as good as an example. I mean, it demonstrates the main problem I have with dialogue, but at the same time demonstrates another one which is the hiding of options.

 

[TheCatsofSanktPetersburg]

I kind of feel bad about the fact that the wizardry style of dialog was abandoned long ago. Dialog trees are fine and all, but it feels like developers have lowered their ambition. I don't see the goal of realistic dialog being tackled in the distant future, except maybe on an artistic level.

 

[Luzur]

why did it take so long?

 

[Ion Prothon II]

>hail
Hello.

>where is the smith?
What?

>directions
What?

>help
What?

>where smith
He's downtown, just past the west gate.

>where is the west gate?
What?

Don't know why, but somehow it reminded me of Daggerfall

 

[Akasen]

I kind of feel bad about the fact that the wizardry style of dialog was abandoned long ago. Dialog trees are fine and all, but it feels like developers have lowered their ambition. I don't see the goal of realistic dialog being tackled in the distant future, except maybe on an artistic level.

Wizardry style of dialog? Do explain this to me. I do not believe I am familiar with the phrase.

 

[Zed]

Putting the seemingly simplistic dialog example in that picture aside - that structure is great and gives a good overview when writing.

 

[MMXI]

I kind of feel bad about the fact that the wizardry style of dialog was abandoned long ago. Dialog trees are fine and all, but it feels like developers have lowered their ambition. I don't see the goal of realistic dialog being tackled in the distant future, except maybe on an artistic level.

Wizardry style of dialog? Do explain this to me. I do not believe I am familiar with the phrase.

 

[Surf Solar]

Ah, perfect. An image I can link to while explaining why dialogue sucks cock in RPGs.

I usually agree to a lot of stuff you say and like your oldschool approach, but what the hell is wrong with this picture? It is a good WYSIWYG dialog editor, one I'd wish I could use aswell for my stuff. It's kind amazing they have such tools and yet cannot do anything with it.

 

[Akasen]

Ah, now I understand. Now if you excuse me, I must further educate myself.

 

[MMXI]

I usually agree to a lot of stuff you say and like your oldschool approach, but what the hell is wrong with this picture? It is a good WYSIWYG dialog editor, one I'd wish I could use aswell for my stuff. It's kind amazing they have such tools and yet cannot do anything with it.

You've totally misunderstood me. I have no problem with that editor at all. In fact, it looks very good for its job. My complaint is with the whole concept of dialogue trees, and I feel that the image suitably captures some of the arguments I tend to make about them.

 

[Surf Solar]

I usually agree to a lot of stuff you say and like your oldschool approach, but what the hell is wrong with this picture? It is a good WYSIWYG dialog editor, one I'd wish I could use aswell for my stuff. It's kind amazing they have such tools and yet cannot do anything with it.

You've totally misunderstood me. I have no problem with that editor at all. In fact, it looks very good for its job. My complaint is with the whole concept of dialogue trees, and I feel that the image suitably captures some of the arguments I tend to make about them.

Ah. I take it you don't like the "Hyperlink Minigame" like Wyrmlord once coined it and prefer a "Tell me about" one? I like both of them, what do you think is so bad with the aforementionend dialog types?

 

[MMXI]

Ah. I take it you don't like the "Hyperlink Minigame" like Wyrmlord once coined it and prefer a "Tell me about" one? I like both of them, what do you think is so bad with the aforementionend dialog types?

Well, having to manually create a unique tree structure for each conversation tends to limit the complexity of the RPG mechanics involved in dialogue. This is why we see skill checks scattered throughout dialogue trees. Some lines don't have any, some are hidden if requirements aren't met, and others show up regardless but branch based on statistics. The player generally has no clue as to what's happening behind the scenes. They might see [Charm], [Intimidate], [Science] and [Medicine] prompts, but these pop up in conversations at largely unpredictable times. Each snippet of dialogue and each individual dialogue option tends to have no direct link with the RPG mechanics. They tend not to fit into any hierarchy or category that can be governed by large scale mechanics.

And the structure itself poses a problem. The linear nature of dialogue trees restricts the active use of abilities and even spells during conversations. It becomes difficult to develop conversations into battles between characters. Using an NPC's faction, race, home town, language, religion and general knowledge as well as your own character's, alongside your reputation with them, is incredibly tricky to do across hundreds or thousands of NPCs with unique branching conversation trees. Instead, a system like Daggerfall's or even Wizardry 8's, but with 10x more development behind it, would allow for such things to be much more easily integrated.

Dialogue trees are akin to a combat "system" where a developer creates a unique flowchart for each battle in the game, restricting what the player can do at each junction. They might be able to come up with an awesome cinematic sequence with such a "system", but they've fallen for the trap of not building a CRPG around what computers are good at doing. Not only would this "system" eliminate tactics in combat, it would also place a worthless constraint on the developers and modders.

 

[Surf Solar]

Ok - I understood and I can even agree with you on this.
Yet - I (as you could've guessed) prefer such a system, I am partially storyfag by heart so I welcome well done editors to do these (doing really elaborate and naturally flowing dialogues without repeated sentences, which seems to be an issue we both can agree with) is very hard to do in not so well done editors. I personally believe there can be a good mixture between the system you prefer and that I prefer. Dialogues that don't feel weird when characters are in a loop of "tell me more" - "I actually wanted to know something else" - "tell me more" "I ac...." etc.

Funny enough, I recently played a bit of Fallout 3 (yeah, don't ask why) and some of these dialogues were very well done from a technical point of view - I was quite surprised myself because I tried to analyze how they did these in this game compared to their other elder scrolls games. Never minding the writing that is horrible, the actual dialogue files are sorted in a nice, flowing manner, which is cool. That's why I am quite baffled why they do such nice tools like we talked about earlier (for the Skyrim editor) but yet have sucha steep decline in writing from FO3 to Skyrim.

 

[MMXI]

I personally believe there can be a good mixture between the system you prefer and that I prefer. Dialogues that don't feel weird when characters are in a loop of "tell me more" - "I actually wanted to know something else" - "tell me more" "I ac...." etc.

Which is why I believe conversations should be narrated instead. "You ask the barkeep for the location of the temple, but he simply shrugs and turns away to serve a customer." Another reason is that descriptive text is easier to insert stuff into. "You ask the barkeep for the location of the temple, but he simply shrugs and turns away to serve the <insert random race here> next to you".

Funny enough, I recently played a bit of Fallout 3 (yeah, don't ask why) and some of these dialogues were very well done from a technical point of view - I was quite surprised myself because I tried to analyze how they did these in this game compared to their other elder scrolls games. Never minding the writing that is horrible, the actual dialogue files are sorted in a nice, flowing manner, which is cool. That's why I am quite baffled why they do such nice tools like we talked about earlier (for the Skyrim editor) but yet have sucha steep decline in writing from FO3 to Skyrim.

Incompetent writers. Which again is another reason why I dislike the concept of dialogue trees. Not all RPGs can have quality writers. We've seen many RPGs that suffer from having shitty writing. Functional writing that fits into a proper dialogue system is much easier for decent RPG designers to create.

 

[Surf Solar]

I personally believe there can be a good mixture between the system you prefer and that I prefer. Dialogues that don't feel weird when characters are in a loop of "tell me more" - "I actually wanted to know something else" - "tell me more" "I ac...." etc.

Which is why I believe conversations should be narrated instead. "You ask the barkeep for the location of the temple, but he simply shrugs and turns away to serve a customer." Another reason is that descriptive text is easier to insert stuff into. "You ask the barkeep for the location of the temple, but he simply shrugs and turns away to serve the <insert random race here> next to you".

I can only say again that I think both of the things you mentionend can be merged just fine - once again I want to mention the Age of Decadence Dialogues which go in a similar vein as you mention.

I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[Black]

Can't wait for furries to fix the game