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Skills affected by several attributes

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm not a big fan of skill point reward systems that allow you to spend them manually, as that generally means that what the character does can be unrelated to which skills are raised.

Not for long and who cares? Spending points is fun, which is why it's near universal, and learn by using systems are almost entirely banal shit boring only literal autists like DraQ enjoy.
 

DraQ

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I'm not a big fan of skill point reward systems that allow you to spend them manually, as that generally means that what the character does can be unrelated to which skills are raised.

Not for long and who cares? Spending points is fun, which is why it's near universal, and learn by using systems are almost entirely banal shit boring only literal autists like DraQ enjoy.
bethestard.png
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm not a big fan of skill point reward systems that allow you to spend them manually, as that generally means that what the character does can be unrelated to which skills are raised.

Not for long and who cares? Spending points is fun, which is why it's near universal, and learn by using systems are almost entirely banal shit boring only literal autists like DraQ enjoy.
bethestard.png

This is atypically retarded even for you. Did you forget which system Bethesda prefers? :lol:
 

DraQ

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I'm not a big fan of skill point reward systems that allow you to spend them manually, as that generally means that what the character does can be unrelated to which skills are raised.

Not for long and who cares? Spending points is fun, which is why it's near universal, and learn by using systems are almost entirely banal shit boring only literal autists like DraQ enjoy.
bethestard.png

This is atypically retarded even for you. Did you forget which system Bethesda prefers? :lol:
I simply find your tag ironic.
Then again, so is your nickname.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
A good learn-by-doing system is ideal. cf. Jagged Alliance.

IIRC some of the old text based multiplayer RPGs (this was before MMO was a term but after MUD had fallen into disuse) had good learn by doing systems. I’m thinking of Gemstone Dragonrealms. You improved your skills by using them, but it didn’t happen immediately. There was a learning system where you’d build up sort of a backlog of incoming experience that would add to your skills gradually over time. The size of the backlog was limited by your wisdom, and the speed you processed it was limited by your intelligence.

So if you spent half an hour fighting goblins, you’d have backlogs in your weapon, shield, armor, parry, and dodge skills. If you maxed out your backlog, your skills might increase by a full point or two over the next hour depending on your stats. The game might still be playable if anyone wants to see how it works, but I wouldn’t recommend unless they’ve changed things dramatically versus twenty years ago.
 

Mastermind

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A good learn-by-doing system is ideal. cf. Jagged Alliance.

Yes, learn by use works great in strategy games where you don't necessarily want to micromanage the living shit out of every actor's build. In RPGs (and especially single character ones) it leads overwhelmingly to degenerate gameplay
 

Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm not a big fan of skill point reward systems that allow you to spend them manually, as that generally means that what the character does can be unrelated to which skills are raised.

Not for long and who cares? Spending points is fun, which is why it's near universal, and learn by using systems are almost entirely banal shit boring only literal autists like DraQ enjoy.
bethestard.png

This is atypically retarded even for you. Did you forget which system Bethesda prefers? :lol:
I simply find your tag ironic.
Then again, so is your nickname.

Bethesda games are good in spite of their shit learn by doing systems.

Unlike you tho, even Toddler seems to be a learning animal since Skyrim and Fallout 3/4 are both vast improvements to Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion in the character system department, mostly by minimizing it in the former and not having it at all in the latter.
 
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Zombra

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Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I’m thinking of Gemstone Dragonrealms.
That sounds great. It seems that delayed gratification is a solid means to make LBD systems workable. We all know the example of jumping up and down in Morrowind for hours and watching our Acrobatics skill skyrocket; "farming" skills is very tempting under most LBD systems. Take away the immediate gratification of instant skill gains and you won't see that kind of behavior. Like Dragonrealms, Jagged Alliance also uses delayed gratification to great effect: in JA1 and JADG you didn't even get any skill gains until a mission ended. Then if you shot a lot, your Marksmanship might go up ... or it might not. You hoped your skills would go up, but you were never working for the DING and the lightning bolt shooting out of your crotch on stat increase. Make it subtle. :obviously:
 

Latelistener

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I have played enough of such "balanced later" games. The result is usually terminally dull cavalcade of nerfs and arbitrary restrictions.
I have little understanding how you can possibly balance a game without making it. Some stuff needs to be tweaked dozens and hundreds times. Something that sounds good on paper may not work in the end. PnP creators spend years or even decades on these things, printing new editions with fixes and stuff.

I have listed one.
Keeping systems orthogonal and not listen retards who came here before? Sounds simple enough, but I think we have a lot of those who thought that they are smarter than people who designed games in 90s.

And then we get things like Wasteland 2.

For that reason they are also best built of possibly basic building blocks interacting with each other.
Can you give an example?

Coarse attributes controlling fine-grained skills is good when you can force player to commit to a rough build without knowing exactly how they will want to fine sculpt it in the end.
Ironically, that's exactly what I have in mind. Skills themselves will have a broader range (10-15 in total), but the sculpting will come from perks (talents, abilities, whatever). I haven't put much thought it yet, but keeping it separate from skills and attributes may be very hard. The idea is that the more you invest into a skill - the more powerful abilities you can get.

Then your system is poorly suited to what you think you can do. Also, most modern and classic cRPGs are irredeemably shit. Even good ones are often floated by 1-2 elements, often created by accident and usually undermined by all the awful ones.
I still would like to hear what is "complex".

And now also what CRPGs are not "shit".

That's good, but if player can decide their final build just as they distribute their initial attribute points, then the extra gameplay provided by having to refine your build as the game progresses goes out of the window.
I sort of explained it above. Player can decide what kind of character he want from the start, but not in details. Of course I don't like the idea of keeping some leveling mechanics away from player. so there is nothing wrong if some experienced and utterly autistic person will plan everything ahead.

So what you say is that you wouldn't mind having attributes and things they control randomly (say, intelligence determining carry weight), because it's just a game?
Not to that extent. For example, 1 strength in Arcanum gives +2 to hit points, 1 constitution gives +2 to fatigue points, and willpower gives +1 to both.

Being logical will make 1 constitution give +2 hp and +2 to fp, 1 will give +1 to fp and 1 strength give +1 to hp. And removing willpower from any ties to magic skills will result in mages dumping it in favor of constitution and we'll have tank mages doing devastating damage.

This is a side effect that will require extra work to implement, extra work to test and likely end up reducing gameplay variety - are you sure you want it? What is it that offends you so in not having it?
Mostly characters with 1 point in intelligence being able to master any scientific and technological skill without any penalties. The above example is also relevant.
 
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Mastermind

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm curious if there is a RPG system (CRPG or tabletop, doesn't matter) where skills affected by more than one attribute. Basically, like it was in Fallout (Base Lockpick = 20% + (.5 x PE) + (.5 x AG)) but something more complex. For example, Guns skill dependent on Dexterity, Perception and Strength. The more points you have in those attributes, the less the cost of dependent skills or the more effective they are.

I noticed that in most games skills are usually rely solely on one attribute. Maybe you could point me in the right direction or explain why no one (or not many) has tried that.

Most rpgs have attributes for the sake of having attributes, because that's how PnP (and especially dungeons and dragons) did it.

As I said, I'm not the brightest guy in the room

Don't worry, neither is DraQ.
 

Kyl Von Kull

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I’m thinking of Gemstone Dragonrealms.
That sounds great. It seems that delayed gratification is a solid means to make LBD systems workable. We all know the example of jumping up and down in Morrowind for hours and watching our Acrobatics skill skyrocket; "farming" skills is very tempting under most LBD systems. Take away the immediate gratification of instant skill gains and you won't see that kind of behavior. Like Dragonrealms, Jagged Alliance also uses delayed gratification to great effect: in JA1 and JADG you didn't even get any skill gains until a mission ended. Then if you shot a lot, your Marksmanship might go up ... or it might not. You hoped your skills would go up, but you were never working for the DING and the lightning bolt shooting out of your crotch on stat increase. Make it subtle. :obviously:

The other thing that prevented farming is that there's a cap on how much experience you can sit on at any given moment. Eventually your skill gets "befuddled" at which point you're not gaining any experience for it until a little time passes and you work your way through some of the backlog. The whole system rewards you for steady, regular, semi-constant use, which is how it should be with learn by doing.
 

Wysardry

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I have little understanding how you can possibly balance a game without making it.
You can create a prototype with only enough features to test the parts you need to. You can also run text only simulations of various character builds, playtest a bare bones PnP version or use a spreadsheet program to list all possible combinations of skills and attributes to see if there are any obvious problem areas.
 

Latelistener

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I have little understanding how you can possibly balance a game without making it.
You can create a prototype with only enough features to test the parts you need to. You can also run text only simulations of various character builds, playtest a bare bones PnP version or use a spreadsheet program to list all possible combinations of skills and attributes to see if there are any obvious problem areas.
We were talking about the skill point (XP) distribution throughout a game, on which I replied that it's too early to tell and it's something that can be balanced later.
 
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Wysardry

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I know. A simplified prototype would still allow you to test that before you made the entire game.
 

ItsChon

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Women. Attributes that might effect this skill include the amount of points you have in your wallet stat, as well as points put into charisma and endurance.
 

Norfleet

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A good learn-by-doing system is ideal. cf. Jagged Alliance.
Well, it certainly provided an accurate simulation of the military life as I would PT new recruits until they dropped into the dirt from exhaustion over and over, anyway.
 

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