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Editorial Sinister Design on 6 Ways to Improve Turn-based RPG Combat

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Crooked Bee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Crooked Bee Nyadmin Patron

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    Tags: Sinister Design

    Craig Stern of Sinister Design, the developer behind Telepath RPG and the upcoming Telepath Tactics, shares his thoughts on some ways to improve turn-based RPG combat systems, meant to complement his older article on the same subject. Among the proposed ways are:

    (2) Movement-focused special abilities. Movement tends to get short-changed when it comes time for special abilities in RPGs. Most RPGs give their characters damage-dealing attacks, some buffs, some de-buffs, maybe a few summoning spells, and then call it a day. It’s strange that we don’t see more movement abilities, particularly so given that war games—themselves the progenitors of role-playing games—originated with chess. Chess not only distinguishes pieces almost entirely through their unique movement patterns, it also throws in special movement abilities for good measure. Pawns, for instance, get an optional bonus space when first moving forward from their starting spaces. There is also castling. It’s a little odd to see so few turn-based RPGs employ special movement abilities, given their long and distinguished heritage.

    It isn’t necessary to introduce a huge number of disparate movement patterns à la chess; just one or two special movement abilities can do the trick. Recent Fire Emblem games, for instance, give larger (particularly mounted) characters the ability to rescue smaller characters and drop them elsewhere. Games in the Disgaea series let human characters pick up and throw allies and enemies, or even stack characters in a tower to set up elaborate throw chains. The rules in these latter examples themselves are simple and easy to grasp, but their tactical implications are far-reaching, opening up many new possibilities over the course of a single battle.

    (6) Character-centric consequences. I touched on something related to this in the last article under the rubric of providing multiple battlefield objectives. That was about giving battlefield events plot consequences. Here, however, I want to suggest to you that we should be doing everything we can to make our decisions on the battlefield have character development consequences.

    Party RPGs with perma-death necessarily have a touch of that, provided that character deaths play a role in dialog and cut scenes going forward. (This happens in Fire Emblem games and in Telepath RPG: Servants of God.) But that’s just scratching the surface of what is possible.

    I’m going to talk about a game that isn’t an RPG for just a second: Crusader Kings 2. Crusader Kings 2 is a recently-released strategy game that does exactly what I was talking about back in 2010: it models characters in an emergent way, then lets the game’s story grow organically out of their interactions. This sort of emergent personality modeling completely sidesteps the supposed incompatibility of narrative and gameplay, and sports the potential to make combat interesting on a level that few (if any) games have attempted to date.

    Now, I’m not suggesting that RPGs should go whole hog and ditch their hand-crafted narratives in favor of an approach like this; rather, just consider for a moment the possibilities opened up by a hybrid approach. Suppose that characters in your party had certain personality attributes, and that those attributes would impact their performance on the battlefield. Maybe one character is “jealous,” so her accuracy drops if another character of the same gender gets between her and her love interest. Maybe another character is “greedy,” and gets angry if another character finishes off an enemy he wounded. Maybe a character who gets close to death one time too many gets a “traumatized” attribute and starts having flashbacks in cut scenes outside of combat. Maybe a character subject to a missed attack that would have otherwise been fatal will become convinced that (the) God(s) protected her, changing her dialog out of combat and making her less careful in combat. I’m just rattling off examples; the possibilities here are absolutely limitless.

    Fire Emblem and its imitators have a very narrow implementation of character-centric consequences in so-called support systems, where characters that spend a lot of time near one another in battle can develop closer relationships and give each other bonuses in combat by fighting together. A different (also very narrow) implementation of this can be found in the “level up by doing” systems of the Elder Scrolls games and X-Com, where having characters perform specific actions makes them better at those actions over time.

    Those sorts of implementations are elegant, but limited both in scope and in approach. A more robust, simulational implementation–a combat system which models character personalities and motivations, then impacts them dynamically over the course of a battle based on events as they occur–has enormous potential to lead to extremely interesting emergent situations in combat, both tactically and narratively.

    That makes it 2 out of 6. For the full list, you should consult the original article.
  2. laclongquan Liturgist

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    The two are not entirely pointed toward TB combat...

    Elevation/Terrain: his point is good, and it's applied already in Silent Storm series. Though I can see another way to use it. Apply each location of terrain a permanent spell-like effect, like Slow, for example.

    Movement-focused actions/skills: depend on how you develop them. Could be game breaking, actually.

    Item drops: a very dangerous trap. Random drops change the game into a reload-fest to get the best loot from each target. I wouldnt touch that. Leave it as fixed drop for each target, or a whole battle's loot in one go and apply random chance in that.

    Zone of Danger: Agree with his point. Could do well, make more use of movement skills.

    Death countdown and revival: smell like a streamlined decision to me. Non-perma death is good enough, no need to tack this on.

    Character centric decision: intriguing. Could be good.
  3. sgc_meltdown Magister

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    Jagged Alliance 2 has most of the features listed here :M

    And games were supposed to build on those but instead we got awesome button, auto-revive after battle and being able to romance everyone after a short chat.

    And then he goes on to point out that Crusader Kings 2 has a great character interaction/relationship system.

    Once again my friends more proof that strategy/tactical games have the best C&C and playing of roles

    I also agree that item drops are silly. Intelligently randomising item locations(i.e. tied to critter level range, area types), yes. Wanting random drops because they also change up the game feels like a messy afterthought of a feature to me. Besides mobility has enough advantages.
    Fatty and mondblut Brofist this.
  4. laclongquan Liturgist

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    Nono, randomize drops is a bad idea unless you let all drops in battle appear in the final act of that battle.

    Because if you let randomizing each redshirt's drop, TB combat will quite easily fall into reload-fest to get most valuable/interesting drops from each one. It will drag on. TB gamers have that tendency.

    But if all loots only appear when it's over and randomizing is applied there, then even with reload-fest it's not as tedious as the above.
  5. sgc_meltdown Magister

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    yeah, it's a terrible thing and I am not immune to it :(

    However dude I was referring to the article's parachuting in of supplies around the battlefield, random chests with random items sitting around etc
  6. JarlFrank Великий князь Patron

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    It's simple. Add more complexity - many different combat options to try out.
    Make every weapon useful and behave differently.
    And most importantly, give the player a controllable party so he can actually use group tactics.

    If your system is solid, then the TB combat will be fun if it fits these criteria, especially the last one. Single character TB is usually not that much fun.
    Grunker Brofists this.
  7. laclongquan Liturgist

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    I dont mind reinforcement and new loots, but I do mind the random in that.
  8. Ebonsword Scholar

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    Ugh, what a terrible example!

    I like my turn-based combat games to be as sim-like as possible, and having to make a human pyramid in the middle of a battlefield is totally ridiculous and makes the game more like a puzzle game than a tactical combat game.
  9. mbpopolano24 Learned

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    :yeah: Innovation.....
  10. LeStryfe79 Drunk Patron

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    4ed dnd had movement centric abilities. That clearly worked out well...
  11. evdk comrade troglodyte Patron

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    Too bad most of 4e abilities were boring. You could choose between "move and do 7W damage fire" and "move and do 7W damage ice". Yay!
  12. mondblut Magister

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    A good way to improve turn-based RPG combat is to never play weeaboo games, for starters.
    Marsal Brofists this.
  13. Grunker RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    Activated abilities (spells, movement, maneuvers, whatever) are the keystone for fun TB-combat for me. Actually choosing between different options, not just doing the same over and over and over.
    JarlFrank Brofists this.
  14. Grunker RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    4E would have made for a pretty good cRPG, actually. Hell, it practically was a cRPG. The fact that it was locked-in and non-modular was mostly problematic in a P&P-perspective (where the system was less that optimal). It would work pretty well in a cRPG, I think.

    Also, inb4 someone says "lol it would have been a WoW-copy", thus missing the point.
  15. LeStryfe79 Drunk Patron

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    Lol, it would have been a.....ah fuck nevermind....
  16. mondblut Magister

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    We already have enough single-player WoW copies, no need for another one.
  17. Grunker RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    In after.

    Please explain to me how a turn-based, tactical RPG with a branching level system and actual equipment-choice would be anything like WoW. I'm really curious how you'll compare the two.
  18. mondblut Magister

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    Turn-based? In 2012? Get a grip.
  19. Grunker RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    I wasn't aware we were discussing anything realistic :lol:
  20. Captain Shrek Dumbfuck! Patron

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    This post is only being written to reinforce your point.

    There is a reason why SP TB can't be as good as Whole PArty (WP) TBS. Its the challenge part: SP TB if you are beset upon by multiple enemies then in a fair game your prowess and skill would equate to their average and you will always be defeated as simply for your every turn the enemy will have one turn each , refer to AoD.

    In a move which is rather artificial (in the bad sense of the word) the combat design can be made to match such game (forcing you to face single/very few enemies) but that would make the game monotonous.
  21. Norfleet Liturgist

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    Single character turn-based tends to be subpar at best. Turn-based exists as an abstraction to enable one person to effectively control a large number of units, or perhaps a smaller number of units with a large number of options. When you have only ONE unit that is capable of doing only abstract-level actions (Attack, Cast Fireball vs. Stab Him In The Eye And Set His Hair On Fire), you're effectively playing Panzer General with only one tank. At least Fallout let you shoot someone in the EYES, as opposed to merely shoot at them, but even then, I think we can all agree that combat was not exactly Fallout's strongest point.

    However, the idea that we need a bunch of fancy "movement centric" abilities is also sort of silly. Movement is fine as a means of getting from Interesting Place To Do Something to Someplace To Do Something Interesting. It's the Doing Interesting Stuff that matters, not the movement. If you can't move, you're a turret. If you can't do anything after you move, you're just not very useful.
    mondblut Brofists this.
  22. Captain Shrek Dumbfuck! Patron

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    I must disagree:


    Is not the cause, but an effect. Sorry for the nitpicking but I thought this was an interesting issue to discuss.

    TB combat as an abstraction DOES work for single player as long the part being abstracted is the idea that the system implementing the design wants to emphasize the strategic skill instead of hand eye co-ordination. In general, TB systems would require you to spend a large amount of time (not necessarily giving you infinite time) to come to some conclusion about your next move thus DE-emphasizing how quickly and accurately you can move and place and target units. For a single character game this works IF the system allows you to be overpowered or designs the game to make the encounters rare and sparse (man-o-mano).

    Thus the need of TB system is NOT to have difficult encounters, but rather strategy.

    Multi-enemy encounters are just difficult if the game is really fair and uses the same ruleset and advantages in terms of gear for your character and the monsters. So they are equally leveled and carry similar equipment a single character will have very low chance of survival.
  23. mondblut Magister

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    Technically, yes. In practice, when there is next to nothing to spend a large amount of time over, TB is pointless and boring. So Norfleet is for all practical purposes spot on.

    (that non-TB, by the virtue of having next to nothing to spend a large amount of time over by default, is pointless and boring, goes without asking).
  24. Grunker RPG Codex Staff Patron

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    Agree.

    Disagree.
  25. mondblut Magister

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    Oh.

    [IMG]

    That, too.

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