Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by Turisas, Apr 12, 2014.

  1. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Parrots:
    2,980
    Location:
    Space Hell
    Click here and disable ads!
    Archers, crossbowmen, longbowmen - range of attack - 2 tiles
    Machine gun, great war infantry, modern infantry - range of attack - 1 tile.
    Because Firaxis
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Galdredgender: ⚧ Generalist Patron

    Galdred
    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Parrots:
    1,809
    Location:
    Middle Empire
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    That doesn't make any sense. The only thing squares have over hexes is that they are much better to tile human architecture. As Civ does not have walls that extend over several tiles, I see no reason why you would want squares instead of hexes.
     
    ^ Top  
  3. flyingjohngender: ⚧ Cipher

    flyingjohn
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Parrots:
    730
    Actually the melee strength of ranged units seems to be the biggest problem,they can take a direct attack from a melee unit and still be okey without much harm being done,and then you just focus down with your army of ranged units.
    There is even a bigger problem with melee units in the form of strength distribution.
    You have mobile sams who are melee and are almost as strong as infantry which makes them a better meat shield which is ridiculous,but even more ridiculous is the uselessness of tanks .
    Tanks in games should be a counter to infantry but in here they are just weaker infantry and therefore useless.
    Not to mention wtf is the point of helicopters and the lower tech tree in the game.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. ssergender: ⚧ Arcane Cuck

    sser
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Parrots:
    1,865,055
    Location:
    Texas
    This or a variation of the doomstack that sort of riffs off what Call to Power was doing.

    I've never really bothered to totally write it out in detail, but I would very much like a system that utilized 'armies' as actual entities that carry limited slot numbers that you must then fill with infantry, archers, cavalry, etc., all of which are led by generals that confer various bonuses, with singular units being allowed to exist outside the 'armies' yet be less effective (unless, say, a general has an aura that increases their viability like a Hannibal would with cavalry). Said armies could then clash and deal damage based on various attributes the generals give them, as well as the overall make up of the army (5-infantry run into 3-infantry and 2-cavalry, 3-infantry hold the line, 2-cavalry flank and devastate the other army). Battles of annihilation are rare, but constantly reinforcing your armies puts a great deal of stress on the economy/population. Maybe have 'bonuses' to victories that isn't just taking peoples cities: large military victories give your cities happiness, science, gold, respect, whatever. Armies in enemy borders require more resources to support (think attrition in Rise of Nations); without support, an army starts losing slots for a turn (imagine them greyed out).

    'Generals' could be much like Spies are in CivV: granted through eras or other means, and numerically increased through the ages so that by the modern era you might have many generals with much larger slot numbers. Said-generals could also earn experience points which is then spent on various pathways. War-like civs would get more generals and/or more slots. An army looking to siege would need to bring siege units, but this would make them necessarily weaker to field battles. Fighters and artillery could bomb armies, taking slots out for a turn as a form of close-air or artillery support. Maybe modern armies actually look like modern armies. Maybe we finally get one of the more devastating killers on the battlefield: the mortar. Mayhaps cities provide support resources for armies, so if you hit a city with bombers you indirectly harm the slots available on the field of battle.

    Armies themselves would be supplied by the very resources you always harvest. A Wheat field could be set to feed a city/citizen, or set to feed an army slot. Suddenly, it's worth trading for food stuffs. Iron/Stone are used to help build buildings as sort of tools, or they can be used to help build armies/support slots. Luxury items could help offset the unhappiness of warfare or 'melted down' into slot-support parts in times of dire need (maybe at half-efficiency). "War economies" could be had. Wars of a different nature could take place. The AI would never again need to try and out-duel the player on hexes - which it never, ever will - but instead simplify their processes to simple army/army-support management.

    Of course, none of that is ever going to happen. It would require a very different civ game in the first place (I can think of many, many things that would need to be reshaped) and secondly, Civ is based on its simplicity and constant sense of rewarding motion first and foremost. Call to Power tried a variation of the stacks of doom that is very much superior to Civ, but that's not likely to return. I think the suggestion of 'support' hexes which can hold various amounts of units while not allowing stacks of doom is the best and most likely middleground. Civ5's combat system is actually not that bad, but it is thoroughly and frequently betrayed by the maps upon which it is played, giving players the aforementioned bottlenecks or conga-lines of dudes snaking their way around awkwardly structured landscapes. 1-UPT is simply too restrictive and something of an oddity altogether. Nevermind the strong aesthetic dissonance between 'these hexes represent large tracts of land' and 'this archer can shoot over 3-hexes.'
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 6
    ^ Top  
  5. Make America Great Again The Brazilian Slaughtergender: ⚧ Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Parrots:
    1,866,954
    Location:
    Belém do Pará
    Which would be interesting... if Civ4 didn't use gamebryo engine, thus running like crap. Have fun playing, say, Planetfall/Conflict on Chiron on a huge map.

    Nobody sane would put enough units worth of a PB's in a single stack, not even defending a city.
    Just normal attacks and artillery are enough to fuck up stacks with collateral damage. A stack of two or four units composed of stuff like defenders, artillery + offensive troops is ok, but stacking up a entire attack force together is pretty much suicide. The AI does it sometimes, which is epically retarded.
    PBs are for base-nuking.

    Not that SMAC's balance is perfect, tho - it has its own problems, like the inherent cheesyness of Choppers (often turns late-game wars into Chop'n drop), Needlejets becoming nearly useless after Choppers, defense being nearly useless, defense techs being on crappy spots in the tech-tree (which results in you getting silksteel after or shortly before Fusion Lasers, Tachyon Bolts and Plasma Shards), artillery being so weak, Doctrine: Air Power and Fusion Power being god-techs that give you ridiculous world-breaking advantage for around 30 turns until AI either gets the same tech or AAA units, Psi becoming useless after Fusion Power, etc.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  6. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Parrots:
    2,875
    Location:
    Italy
    well, planetfall sucks and coc is german only. i see no problem here.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Eyeballgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Eyeball
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Parrots:
    2,538
    CoC is in English as well.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Make America Great Again Average Manateegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Parrots:
    8,204
    AC's solution was dumb (everything EXPLODES!!!!), wouldn't make sense before 2100 AD, and only sort of worked in AC because the combat system was already fucked from the get go (massively imbalanced Atk/Def, hyper mobility). It's fun but its the exact opposite of balance.

    If by massed artillery you mean, like, 5-7 for a 20-30 stack, of which 3-5 will usually survive.

    As for half health: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php

    Code:
    Ratio value	      Odds of winning
       >1.8                   99%+
     1.58-1.79	        95%-98%
     1.39-1.57	        87%-90%
     1.25-1.38	        75%-80%
     1.01-1.25	        62%-75%
        1.0                   50%
     0.80-0.99	        25%-38%
     0.73-0.79	        20%-25%
     0.64-0.72	        10%-13%
     0.56-0.63	         2%-5%
       <0.56                  <1%
    Every fight where you have more than an 80% advantage over the enemy is essentially impossible to lose.

    Summary: Your 20 stack + 5-7 artillery just killed 20 enemy units, lost 2 artillery, and suffered a bunch of minor damage that will heal in 2-3 turns.

    Artillery sure sucks.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Make America Great Again The Brazilian Slaughtergender: ⚧ Arcane

    The Brazilian Slaughter
    Joined:
    May 11, 2007
    Parrots:
    1,866,954
    Location:
    Belém do Pará
    Way to miss the point.
    THE POINT is that Civ4 runs like crap. Didn't age well. Have a multi-core processor? Grats, u fucked!
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  10. MadMaxHellfiregender: ⚧ Magister

    MadMaxHellfire
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2010
    Parrots:
    2,875
    Location:
    Italy
    play it with a book.
    you can't blame a game for something it wasn't supposed to do, to even know it would have happened someday.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Casanova_Frankensteingender: ⚧ Literate

    Casanova_Frankenstein
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2015
    Parrots:
    13
    That's what happens when you get rid of stacking. Archers now have to have meat shields on the tile in front of them in order be protected but they also have to be able to attack enemy units so they're given increased range.

    Another perfect example of how removing what appears to be a simple gameplay mechanic, can change the whole complexion of a game.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. KoolNoodlesgender: ⚧ Arcane

    KoolNoodles
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Parrots:
    3,005
    There are mods for Civ5 that allow stacking, either civvie units or military or both. They are also scaleable depending on preference. They kinda work, and worth looking into if you still play Civ5.
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Drakrongender: ⚧ Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Parrots:
    5,773
    No, AC had was area damage that makes sense.

    The solution to stacks is area damage, you can stack but be vulnerable to being bombed so megastacks can be wiped, the real issue with megastacks was because damage was mostly on unit it mean it would roll and unless they dropped a nuke nothing could stop it, allow bombers to deal area damage and things start to change.

    Its easy to make the system reach a point were megastacks became impractical by simply allow zone damage and make the AI create mix units stacks, if you want to make a one unit per hex then make the concept of "army" and allow each army be composed of different types of units (archer, swordsman, etc ...) so you dont end up with entirely redundant units because they were designed for esorting other units.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Make America Great Again Average Manateegender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Average Manatee
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Parrots:
    8,204
    AC didn't have area damage. The way AC worked was that if your unit died, other units in the same square suffered damage from that. In other words, your units just exploded on death.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Galdredgender: ⚧ Generalist Patron

    Galdred
    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Parrots:
    1,809
    Location:
    Middle Empire
    Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Actually, if you want warfare to be interesting, another soultion to stack is supply, and encirclement.
    If you only have a few big stacks, it becomes trivial to cut them off, and they should fight at very reduced efficiency until they starve out. That is the solution used by most wargames (even though they usually implement a soft or hard stacking limit too).
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Volrathgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Volrath
    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    Parrots:
    3,174
    Civ IV :smug:
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  17. Space Satangender: ⚧ Arcane

    Space Satan
    Joined:
    May 13, 2013
    Parrots:
    2,980
    Location:
    Space Hell
    Prugressiv Develupurz at the interview.
    "We fucked up"
    [​IMG]
     
    ^ Top  
  18. flyingjohngender: ⚧ Cipher

    flyingjohn
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Parrots:
    730
    New game play video from quill18:
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Zerielgender: ⚧ Arcane

    Zeriel
    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2012
    Parrots:
    4,941
    I can't believe we have 48 pages of discussion about this shitpile.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. Aziragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Azira
    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2004
    Parrots:
    7,678
    Location:
    Copenhagen, Denmark
    Codex 2012
    We're very loyal to our excrement fetish it seems. :troll:
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. flyingjohngender: ⚧ Cipher

    flyingjohn
    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Parrots:
    730
    All the codex needs now is a 500 thread on arcania and the decline will be complete.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    65,139
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
  23. Hellraisergender: ⚧ Arcane

    Hellraiser
    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2007
    Parrots:
    7,273
    Location:
    Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
    Personality traits are interesting, Space Merkel looks bland.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Jaedargender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

    Jaedar
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Parrots:
    4,797
    Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    The game also has a free weekend up, if someone wants to experience the decline first hand.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ I post news Patron

    Infinitron
    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Parrots:
    65,139
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire

(buying stuff via the above buttons helps us pay the hosting bills, thanks!)