Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong Pre-Release Discussion [GO TO NEW THREAD]

How much HBS is going to get for his Hong Kong campaign ?


  • Total voters
    161
  • Poll closed .

PhantasmaNL

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
1,653
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria
I'd like it if Kickstarters would honestly say stuff like, "This is as much as we want to deliver that needs funding. If you give us more money it is just normal profit we don't feel needs to be invested into hiring more people or working longer hours, but rather on things like replacing the transmission on my daughter's car." Although, I dunno if that is technically allowed on Kickstarter.

Still going strong at 1.1 million now. They will have a very nice extra buffer for unexpected things (or a big office party).
 

Nihiliste

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
2,998
I'd like it if Kickstarters would honestly say stuff like, "This is as much as we want to deliver that needs funding. If you give us more money it is just normal profit we don't feel needs to be invested into hiring more people or working longer hours, but rather on things like replacing the transmission on my daughter's car." Although, I dunno if that is technically allowed on Kickstarter.

Still going strong at 1.1 million now. They will have a very nice extra buffer for unexpected things (or a big office party).

Better yet, to buy me a yacht
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My major suggestion is the same it always was, loosen up the narrative and create a faction based game with each having different goals you can help or hinder. Not that you need to choose at a predetermined place of the narrative for maximum drama (like that sequence after you pay alice in dragonfall) but one you can play both ends against the middle without being blacklisted as far as you can in the mechanics, like geneforge. If this requires a working stealth system or to avoid some missions so be it, you can always commit. And i'm not against dramatic moments, only the player should have agency in causing them, even if inadvertent.

Wouldn't you like of say, for example telling your team to fuck off in the Dragonfall start, then doing the Aztechnology questline with contracted runners, with some suitiably epic blood magic atrocity questline... only to run into the dragonfall bad ending, because Vauclair succeded in killed all the dragons; unless you took care of Vauclair in the meanwhile or even with the team, while secretly doing Aztech quests, which would open up the faction ending etc.
 
Last edited:

mindx2

Codex Roaming East Coast Reporter
Patron
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
4,389
Location
Perusing his PC Museum shelves.
Codex 2012 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire RPG Wokedex Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
They might easily have a 20-25% cushion on their budget by the time this thing ends tomorrow... :eek: That is a mighty fine cushion to have! Really have to give HBS credit here. No one is complaining that they are getting that much more funding without adding anything else to the game... that's pure profit and the money counter keeps ticking upward. :salute:
 
Weasel
Joined
Dec 14, 2012
Messages
1,865,661
No one is complaining that they are getting that much more funding without adding anything else to the game... that's pure profit and the money counter keeps ticking upward. :salute:

Not sure I'd call it "pure profit", but at least they have more funding to deliver what they've promised in terms of the core game. These estimated costs are not set in stone so it was wise for them not to get carried away with more stretch goals. Every project has "nice to have" things which get cut to meet deadline/budget, there'll hopefully be less of this pressure in this case. I'm not saying they'll need much more (like WL2/D:OS) as they've made 2 of these already so will have a more accurate view of the budget, but it's a nice position to be in.

One could also say that these preorders are at the expense of future sales but I hope they do make a good profit so they can be well set up to start production on the next game, as they did with this one where the first half of production was self-funded. And hopefully keep improving each time.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,337
Location
Crait
Shadowrun should basically be GTA V set in 6th world 2078.

Maybe its unfair to compare Shadowrun Returns to GTA V, but thats where it fails hard in comparison.

And actually, Genesis Shadowrun had way more useful spells that could be used creatively (invisibility, barrier, stink bomb, chaos, sleep) than Shadow Returns (where magic is basically for just Aim, Heal and Haste). Also Matrix was way better because you had to use many different types of programs (deceive, analyze, degrade, slow, reflect) other than just different forms of attack and accuracy boost in Shadowrun Returns.

Combat was better in Genesis Shadowrun because your enemies weren't controlled by gimped AIs that can only take 1/3 of the actions you can.

It's very hard to understand someone that calls Genesis Shadowrun's gameplay repetitive. Repetitive - is the last missions in Dead Man's Switch and Dragonfall.
 

Bleed the Man

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 30, 2013
Messages
655
Location
Spain
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
No one is complaining that they are getting that much more funding without adding anything else to the game... that's pure profit and the money counter keeps ticking upward. :salute:
Well, unless they would want to expend all this extra-money in hookers or something, this only benefit us.

With all this money, unless they fuck it up badly, is fair to say they're already on the profit zone, and with the fair share of copies Hong Kong I assume would have, it will be a lot more easier for them to make another kickstarter like this (to increase the scope, not fully fund the game) but a lot more big, with stealth, astral space, maybe a longer type of campaign... and for not much money than what they asked originally for this one.

I'm speculating of course, I'm pulling this entirely out of my ass, but I see it as a very likely scenario.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Shadowrun should basically be GTA V set in 6th world 2078.

Maybe its unfair to compare Shadowrun Returns to GTA V, but thats where it fails hard in comparison.

And actually, Genesis Shadowrun had way more useful spells that could be used creatively (invisibility, barrier, stink bomb, chaos, sleep) than Shadow Returns (where magic is basically for just Aim, Heal and Haste). Also Matrix was way better because you had to use many different types of programs (deceive, analyze, degrade, slow, reflect) other than just different forms of attack and accuracy boost in Shadowrun Returns.

Combat was better in Genesis Shadowrun because your enemies weren't controlled by gimped AIs that can only take 1/3 of the actions you can.

It's very hard to understand someone that calls Genesis Shadowrun's gameplay repetitive. Repetitive - is the last missions in Dead Man's Switch and Dragonfall.

Are you serious? The AI in Genesis SR was dumb as fuck just bum rushing you whenever possible.
Those spells you mentioned exist in SRR too by the way, and more.
Combat better in Genesis? You have to be a troll. Combat was atrocious, worse than in the SNES SR game.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,656
Also Matrix was way better because you had to use many different types of programs (deceive, analyze, degrade, slow, reflect) other than just different forms of attack and accuracy boost in Shadowrun Returns.

My Matrix experience in GenRun was spamming deceive until it didn't work and then spamming attack. If I came across one of those things that would eat your programs, I'd spam some cheap junk program until it ate it.

Combat was better in Genesis Shadowrun because your enemies weren't controlled by gimped AIs that can only take 1/3 of the actions you can.

This is like that thing Roguey was talking about on the last page.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Combat was better in Genesis Shadowrun because your enemies weren't controlled by gimped AIs that can only take 1/3 of the actions you can.

It's very hard to understand someone that calls Genesis Shadowrun's gameplay repetitive. Repetitive - is the last missions in Dead Man's Switch and Dragonfall.
:hmmm: Ehh, then you played a special version that only you played.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
The matrix combat itself might have been simple, but it had actual layouts that made the whole experience much more interesting. All the matrix runs in SRR are totally linear paths with unavoidable combat along the way, and maybe a datastore on the side with some trivial bonus reward. The Gen version had seperate nodes for elevators, cameras, security alarm, a central core that could shut down everything or turn off the alarm, multiple datastores of varying types, I/O nodes that could only be accessed from the specific terminals inside the building in question and served as shortcuts into the depths of the system. It was awesome.

And yeah, it had plenty of spells too. Probably about the same amount, but in the Gen game the variety was better because you could actually cause mental damage and cause various status effects. Though in both games I rarely used most spells (though for very different reasons; trying to get your mages to use spells properly was like pulling teeth, they always switched to something retarded like a super high level stoneskin and then hurt themselves casting it. In SRR there simply weren't any other decent spells, especially since you can only equip a handful for a run.)

And Dragonfall gameplay in general got VERY repetitive after a while. Every fight was just me standing behind cover lobbing lightning balls at enemies. Eventually I got OP enough I could just send Glory out to flank people and things went quicker, but it was still repetitive. Which I wouldn't mind, except it was also SLOOOOOW. Slow combat that poses no challenge is THE fucking sin of game development. At least Gen combat was generally over in a few seconds, one way or another. The parts outside of combat weren't much better. What really kept my going was really only the setting and investment in the plot.

But even if you don't think the gameplay can be compared because they're different types of games, the atmosphere absolutely can be. And SRR fails there, really hard. Shit like Blitz's goofy fuckups, or mystical super elf chick dropping epic prophesies on you just don't fit in. I think the goofiest thing in the old game was some innkeepers cracking jokes about their shitty accommodations. And they ran the gammut of the setting; you had wilderness encounters that were scary, creepy vampires or mages roaming the streets, lone star hassling you, gangs fucking with you, corporate shitheads, security goons, sleek offices and run down slums, dive bars and classy clubs you need rep to get into. And it was ALL well done. Not a single shitty character like Blitz or the goofy scientist to ruin the mood.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
The matrix combat itself might have been simple, but it had actual layouts that made the whole experience much more interesting. All the matrix runs in SRR are totally linear paths with unavoidable combat along the way, and maybe a datastore on the side with some trivial bonus reward. The Gen version had seperate nodes for elevators, cameras, security alarm, a central core that could shut down everything or turn off the alarm, multiple datastores of varying types, I/O nodes that could only be accessed from the specific terminals inside the building in question and served as shortcuts into the depths of the system. It was awesome.

And yeah, it had plenty of spells too. Probably about the same amount, but in the Gen game the variety was better because you could actually cause mental damage and cause various status effects. Though in both games I rarely used most spells (though for very different reasons; trying to get your mages to use spells properly was like pulling teeth, they always switched to something retarded like a super high level stoneskin and then hurt themselves casting it. In SRR there simply weren't any other decent spells, especially since you can only equip a handful for a run.)

And Dragonfall gameplay in general got VERY repetitive after a while. Every fight was just me standing behind cover lobbing lightning balls at enemies. Eventually I got OP enough I could just send Glory out to flank people and things went quicker, but it was still repetitive. Which I wouldn't mind, except it was also SLOOOOOW. Slow combat that poses no challenge is THE fucking sin of game development. At least Gen combat was generally over in a few seconds, one way or another. The parts outside of combat weren't much better. What really kept my going was really only the setting and investment in the plot.

But even if you don't think the gameplay can be compared because they're different types of games, the atmosphere absolutely can be. And SRR fails there, really hard. Shit like Blitz's goofy fuckups, or mystical super elf chick dropping epic prophesies on you just don't fit in. I think the goofiest thing in the old game was some innkeepers cracking jokes about their shitty accommodations. And they ran the gammut of the setting; you had wilderness encounters that were scary, creepy vampires or mages roaming the streets, lone star hassling you, gangs fucking with you, corporate shitheads, security goons, sleek offices and run down slums, dive bars and classy clubs you need rep to get into. And it was ALL well done. Not a single shitty character like Blitz or the goofy scientist to ruin the mood.

Combat in Genesis? Use your main attack: Spam button. If you feel fancy you can pop a Medkit. Yeah, such great combat.
NPCs in Genesis had NO personality whatsoever, so yeah hard to have no "shitty" characters when they were all bland and forgettable. Heck Josh or whatever the main character was called had barely any characterization except for "must avenge brother". I cannot remember a single NPC by name, that's how "memorable" the game was. All the Johnsons were the same just giving variations in difficulties of particular types of run which were all randomized generic crap. NPCs in the main story line were usually visisted once and had no further impact. Other runners were basically just walking stats, empty husks whose only lines you got in the dialogue when you hired them, that was it.

SR: DF is lightyears ahead in everything but Matrix in comparison to the Genesis version.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
Really? Because I can remember Vigore and Jarl being scumbag Johnsons that fucked you over and paid more poorly for runs than the dwarven one downtown. I remember Caleb Brightmore being a classy proffesional, I remember Trent, the human mage with a contact who was a professor, all very professional and legit, who could swing you a discount with the retail mage store. And Phantom, the male elven decker with a past in corporate who could hook you up with some contacts in corporate security and give you some info on corporate systems. I remember the fixer mocking me for downloading worthless shit and deleting it off my deck for me 'free of charge'. I can remember a lot of the NPCs from that game. I can't remember anyone from SRR, and I played that far more recently. Harlequinn was there I guess, since people always mention him and how dumb that was? Oh, and Baron Samdi. I remember that name because he was also in a manga or something I was reading at the time too. I doubt I'll remember anyone from Dragonfall either a year from now, aside from maybe Alice, who was handled the same way the contacts were handled in the Gen game.


And the main characters in both games are pretty much the same. Just empty shells with no real motivation besides plot dictating your actions.
 

Sykar

Arcane
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Messages
11,297
Location
Turn right after Alpha Centauri
Really? Because I can remember Vigore and Jarl being scumbag Johnsons that fucked you over and paid more poorly for runs than the dwarven one downtown. I remember Caleb Brightmore being a classy proffesional, I remember Trent, the human mage with a contact who was a professor, all very professional and legit, who could swing you a discount with the retail mage store. And Phantom, the male elven decker with a past in corporate who could hook you up with some contacts in corporate security and give you some info on corporate systems. I remember the fixer mocking me for downloading worthless shit and deleting it off my deck for me 'free of charge'. I can remember a lot of the NPCs from that game. I can't remember anyone from SRR, and I played that far more recently. Harlequinn was there I guess, since people always mention him and how dumb that was? Oh, and Baron Samdi. I remember that name because he was also in a manga or something I was reading at the time too. I doubt I'll remember anyone from Dragonfall either a year from now, aside from maybe Alice, who was handled the same way the contacts were handled in the Gen game.


And the main characters in both games are pretty much the same. Just empty shells with no real motivation besides plot dictating your actions.

You are aware that DF and DMS are completely different campaigns, right? Since at first you were referring to DF which characters were obviously memorable since you complain about them. DMS was more of a demo for a pretty powerful editor and they delivered what the people asked for so any complaints about DMS are pretty moot.

As to plot dictates your actions, no shit, show me in which game that is much different if you want to solve the main quest. Answer, almost none so that is an empty argument. Main character in DF at least gets a rudimentary explanation why he joined up with Monika through dialogue with Dietrich, that's more than the Genesis version had to offer already on a very basic level.

Those events you described were one times event with absolutely no further impact outside of karma/money or giving a minimum of atmosphere. Minimal fluff just barely enough to keep up the thin facade of a pretty empty game with big hubs which were mostly void of anything. Heck considering that is supposed to be Seattle I felt more like I was in some village slum in which people keep in their houses.

No, I do not remember any of these NPCs, for one it has been over a 15 years or more since I played it and two I played it only once and only because I was a Shadowrun fan. The game outside of the Matrix was nice but nothing special and I was in fact pretty bored and frustrated with the immensely shitty combat. The Matrix runs were the only highlights and in fact I rerolled from a magic user to a decker character since that experience was a lot better.

Also, were can I make my own campaigns in the Genesis version? Just asking.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Someone above said Contacts in genesis was a random and simplistic affair. It wasn't. You had a pretty extensive web of contacts, where each was linked to each other through bribes ( gimme 1k nuyen and I can acquaint you with a para-critter specialist friend of mine ) and quests. And each one gave a different advantage, from price discounts on specific gear, to other even more important contacts and even new runners. And this Contact web was multibranched too - I remember you had to choose who to acquaint, the local Yakuza Oyabun, or the local Mafia Godfather. Acquainting one prohibited you from contacting the other, as those factions are rivals. The end result is that this contact web was so open-ended as the game itself and each play through would see you having a different set of contacts.

Also, the initial choice for character type actually influenced your path in the game - a Street Sam would see lots of ghouls and gang busting, while a Decker would see matrix infiltrations, and the Shaman would see courier jobs and infiltrations. In other words: You character type actually changed the way the game played, at least in the short term ( and this short term could last long, as the game was kind of grindy). Compare that with Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall where character type change nothing in the game except how you will kill the next goon. Someone see some similarity to bioware games yet ????

And this 20 years ago.


Jason Liang said:
Shadowrun should basically be GTA V set in 6th world 2078.
This. Shadowrun invented the open-world/sandbox formula. It's one of the most obvious fit for any game trying to depict a rogue / independent operative doing mercenary work for different sponsors in a persistent setting. This should be the starting point for any modern game depicting the Shadowrun setting, and not a half-baked add-on dependent on stretch goals.
 
Last edited:

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
I just finished playing DF like 2 weeks ago, I'd sure as hell hope I still remember the main characters, if I didn't it'd be a sign of serious brain damage.

But whatever, carry on blasting a 2MB console game for not having user generated campaigns.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Oh, and the talk about Genesis made me forgot how perfect the atmosphere in the SNES game was. The first time I saw it I thought it was a Blade Runner game and Jake Armitage was Rutger Hauer. (that ambientation was so thick, I dreamed with that morgue music for years).

My point? Not even the SNES atmosphere this new version managed to replicate. A game released 20 years after the originals can't best the gameplay of one nor the atmosphere of the other (damn, even Syndicate 1 has a better shadowrunny mood than this). If this isn't a mediocre outcome, I don't know what it is.
 
Last edited:

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
Criticism I agree with: The Matrix needs a revamp to become more interesting and more clever interactions between the Matrix and meatspace would be nice, level design is too restrictive, linear and simplistic, there is no playing with alarms, security measures and etc., some C&C wouldn't hurt and more equipment options would be nice.

Criticism I disagree with: "OMG guise, this game isn't better than the Genesis game and it is total crap because of that." They wanted to make a linear mission based game, they said that a few times already.

I dream of a modern shadowrun game ambitious like the Genesis one but well made this time (sorry, all those positive things you people are mentioning sound suspiciously like I didn't play the same game as you, and I played the Genesis game a few months ago, or your memories are running tricks because the Genesis game I remember playing was a fucking, mind numbing chore to play.). HBS wanted to make a linear, mission based game and if you don't like it because of that, fine, but the game isn't total crap because of that.

HBS doesn't want to make a Genesis type campaign because it isn't their thing or it is the low budget, I dunno. Until they change idea or get more money, I had fun with Dragonfall and hope Hong Kong is great.
 

Comrade Goby

Magister
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
1,219
Project: Eternity
I hate always having to play as a small pawn. Maybe that's just years of rpg's where you play as the hero talking.

Also how does this compare to original budget or Dragonfall?

Do you think they will have more than 4 NPC's this time?
I enjoyed my time with SR:DF but the world did seem very static and empty.
 

Dreaad

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
5,604
Location
Deep in your subconscious mind spreading lies.
But even if you don't think the gameplay can be compared because they're different types of games, the atmosphere absolutely can be. And SRR fails there, really hard. Shit like Blitz's goofy fuckups, or mystical super elf chick dropping epic prophesies on you just don't fit in. I think the goofiest thing in the old game was some innkeepers cracking jokes about their shitty accommodations. And they ran the gammut of the setting; you had wilderness encounters that were scary, creepy vampires or mages roaming the streets, lone star hassling you, gangs fucking with you, corporate shitheads, security goons, sleek offices and run down slums, dive bars and classy clubs you need rep to get into. And it was ALL well done. Not a single shitty character like Blitz or the goofy scientist to ruin the mood.
Strange, I always felt Shadowrun was no where near that dark and unfriendly, you make it sound like something from White Wolf, everyone loses and everything sucks. For me after reading the books it felt more like a Fallout 2ish atmosphere in a cyber punk setting. Yes there were serious things going down, yes you were always hunted, the world was dangerous but there was a certain dark humor to it all. Cultural predictions and stereotypes created mocking parodies of the modern world. Noir that doesn't take itself to seriously, because.... well because elves, trolls and magic with machine guns. The power of different DM's eh?

I think your interpretation of the world (whether technically right or wrong) is holding you back from enjoying something different. I honestly feel Shadowrun Returns is more Shadowrunny than the snes/genesis games... but I enjoyed them all for different reasons.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
14,982
The humour of blitz locking me in a vault because he's a retard I should've been able to shoot and replace with someone competent didn't seem all that dark to me. And don't even get me started on the scientist guy in that run you do for the doctor, spouting faux larping shit. That was pretty much on par with borderlands meme jokes. I wouldn't enjoy characters like them in any setting, they're just awful.

Eiger was probably the best character in the whole game. Consummate runner. No family ties left, no weird idealism, just some old grudges, a temper, and a lot of professionalism. Given the option, I'd have loved to have a whole team like her. Glory and Dietrich were ok, albeit a little too soft, though that kinda suits magical characters. The fixer guy was way too incompetent. I practically got more runs legging it around the fucking hub than I did from him, how sad is that? And they tended to pay like ass. And he never did anything else, never hooked us up with useful contacts (Alice the literal plot device doesn't count) or merchants or anything. I was an ass to him the entire game and never felt bad about it.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
You're basically arguing "Black Trenchcoat" vs "Pink Mohawk" at this point -- both are valid ways to approach Shadowrun. DF was a bit more on the Pink Mohawk side, and SRR was more on the Black Trenchcoat side (especially the first part).
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom