That's exactly what people were posting here after the moderate reception of Dragonfall.
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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition
- Thread starter Ulminati
- Start date
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Zetor
Arcane
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Dragonfall SmileyFace only happened because HBS had no other active projects at the time (except for Golem Arcana) and their artists/devs/coders had to be working on SOMETHING.
Now they have Necropolis, Battletech, and maybe some other mystery projects...
Now they have Necropolis, Battletech, and maybe some other mystery projects...
Fredward
Scholar
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2015
- Messages
- 133
Mr Real Writer you used 'heck' twice in two sentences like a basic bitch. If you give me some money I could be your editor.
I liked HK's writing, I like HBS' writing in general. I'm not versed enough to critique it's relative artistic merits but in the confines of a game I think it serves its purpose very, very well. And that purpose, as I see it, is to open up the 'theater of the mind.' When you take the writing and the way its generally structured and you combine it with the character portraits and the visual representation in the game and in HK the sound effects too (like the click-clack of tiles in Kindly's parlor or the frizzing of wires in Izzy's cabin) it gives you just enough to paint this marvelously detailed mental picture of what's happening right then. You can even smell it a lot of the time. It winds up being more immersive to me than a lot of AAA titles who attempt to fully visually represent these things. Simply because they can't do it as well or as organically as a human mind will.
So yeah. Full marks for HBS' writing. Not in and of itself but as part of the cohesive whole that is the game. The occasional clunky delivery notwithstanding.
As a slight aside the other game that comes to mind when I think 'tries to evoke the theater of the mind' is PoE and that drove me OFF OF MY FUCKING DICK with its constant 'Durance fondles his staff' 'He scratches his pockmarked face' 'Durance scratches his ass' 'Durance digs in his left nostril' 'Durance grips his wooden staff tightly, it is made of wood' like shut the fuck up, what are you even doing? I don't know if PoEs writing is generally lauded here but it drove me insane. I never managed to finish it and when I wanna go back it's the idea of facing that writing again that keeps me from trying.
So if I compare the two and assume that they're both aiming to accomplish certain things I'd say HBS definitely DOES know what it's aiming for. Maybe it doesn't always accomplish it or it's unpolished (I noticed that the writing really starts to limp towards the end of the game for instance) but it knows what it wants. And it isn't Fine Literary Quality and that's okay because maybe it was never supposed to be. It's a component rather than the centerpiece and it works. For me at least.
This is all pertaining to writing in game. If we're talking meta-writing as in the story I can agree it needs something. I'm not sure it's necessarily better writers. I think there's a variety of things at play. The side-content is unevenly paced for instance. Not everything is done and that is occasionally glaringly obvious (towards the end especially), awkward exposition dumps, Duncan-as-background deliverer needed a lot of fine tuning though I like the idea etc. More focus maybe. Cohesion.
Kem0sabe
Arcane
The new engine and the battletech game will consume HBS man hours for the foreseeable future, and if it's even moderately successful they can't let that work go to waste... Inevitable sequels.
From what we can tell from steamspy player stats, each SR game has had a massive dip in players and HK's numbers were especially bad.
From what we can tell from steamspy player stats, each SR game has had a massive dip in players and HK's numbers were especially bad.
Kem0sabe
Arcane
Writing is passable for the missions, but gets pretty bad for the npc back at your neighborhood, they wrote so much for each npc, vendors included that it was impossible to maintain acceptable quality standards.
eXalted
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,213
For someone like me who wants to talk to everybody for everything takes an hour before proceeding to the next mission.
I thought I'm the only one who thinks that sometimes the dialogue phrases are too pompous.
Anyway, I would bite another Shadowrun game, hope the situation is not that bad.
I thought I'm the only one who thinks that sometimes the dialogue phrases are too pompous.
Anyway, I would bite another Shadowrun game, hope the situation is not that bad.
Kaivokz
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2015
- Messages
- 1,504
I agree; being better than the average writer doesn't mean you're great. Shadowrun is a universe that covers a large variety of thematic elements that I (and many others) enjoy, which makes a weak narrative and editorial blunders easier to set aside (Jordan Weisman being creative director is probably part of the brilliance that shines through in Harebrained Schemes' games).
There are a few complaints I would lodge against the writing team of Hong Kong.
Editorial:
1) Blatant errors - typos, strings of dialogue that reference yet-to-happen or didn't-happen-that-way events (though, some of this could be issues with other parts of the game design), etc.
2) A gross abundance of repetition during some dialogues. e.g. sentences that use the same word 3+ times.
3) As you said, there's too much. Some odd descriptions are kept in-game that are barely skim-worthy. Could have done with a larger editorial staff in general.
Narrative:
3) After you stop "being a typical shadowrunner" the pacing goes downhill. If we liken the game to having sex, Shadowrun: Hong Kong is the person who touches you in all the right places and then fucks up your orgasm.
4) The story can lack drive if the player feels no deep connection to their foster father (which is unfortunate, since you can say you really don't care in game, but are forced to the unavoidable Siege of Prosperity anyway); the story is not cohesive enough from beginning to end to form an overall engaging narrative.
I enjoyed the game - as I do people who touch me in all the right places but fuck up my orgasm. I was mostly just jerking the other dude's chain since he seemed to hold some pretty high opinions of himself and I found his criticisms to be perfunctory (read: characterized by superficiality) at best. "Let an actual writer in here and I'll show you how much better I am." I'm not even going to delve into how silly I think it is to try delineating the necessary characteristics someone ought possess to be considered a writer.
eXalted
Arcane
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2014
- Messages
- 1,213
SwiftCrack
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2012
- Messages
- 1,836
One year after signing up.
Also, I had no real choice (for direct teammates anyway) but to take Racter, Gaichu and Duncan every run because I was a decker myself (ain't take two deckers) and Gobbet is useless.
Also fuck yeah Shadowrun: Moscow would be sweet.
Also, I had no real choice (for direct teammates anyway) but to take Racter, Gaichu and Duncan every run because I was a decker myself (ain't take two deckers) and Gobbet is useless.
Also fuck yeah Shadowrun: Moscow would be sweet.
Jason Liang
Arcane
I just noticed that Koschei comes with tons of grenades and remembered that Gun Show ends up with the Grenade Arm of God (great choice of implant Sir Dunk!) so I'm gonna retract saying Gaichu is as good as both. Up UNTIL Gun Show gets Tommy John surgery, he and Gaichu are about equal. Koschei is about 1 step away from SkyNET unleashing Judgment Day SPOILER.
I'm off to write Koschei+Incognita slashfic and Is0bel+Jane slashfic (the dorf grl from Dragonfall).
I'm off to write Koschei+Incognita slashfic and Is0bel+Jane slashfic (the dorf grl from Dragonfall).
GarfunkeL
Racism Expert
Give us links later :D
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2014
- Messages
- 13,578
Finally finished the game yesterday. I liked it, but in the end, it does not beat Dragonfall in quality.
During the final mission, the transition icon to progress wasn't interactive, so I had to redo the mission twice before it worked properly. That was a waste of 2 hours of my life. My final playtime according to Steam is 31 hours. I guess that's right if I count some reloads and leaving the game on while doing other stuff.
The writing is a mixed bag. I liked it most of the time, but by the end, I was just quickly skimming NPC dialog in the base hub because it was a bit much to read and not top quality at all times. It also doesn't help that they for some reason felt it is a good idea to have the text to the right for the third time. Just put the text on the lower part of the screen. I don't mind a lot of words in my games. There was a lot of cool stuff to read, but not all of it was good or well written. It's a bit jarring seeing some really well written sections and then some that are clearly not as good. When it comes to the main story: It was decent, just not anything super exciting. I'm not satisfied with the lead up to the ending. I didn't feel that there were enough missions that directly had to do with our main objective. In the end, I say the main story missions were decent, but again not on the level of Dragonfall.
The writing was mostly good during missions, with some misses here and there. Overall, I can't really complain though, but i was not at the same level as Dragonfall. The female companions weren't amazing but still better than Glory and the annoying decker, I always forget his name.
Duncan wasn't bad, but very predictable. I liked Racter and Gaichu. I also like the cyberware dude NPC. The other NPCs, I didn't care much for. The Plastic Faced Man was really underused. I was expecting to see more on that front. I was looking forward to the confrontation with him, the omemtn I have been waiting for finally happens and it turns out to be one of the more underwhelming missions in the game.
I felt that this was the easiest game of the three HBS Shadowrun games. (I do play on Normal.) I got to reload the game once during a run because I accidentally killed an enemy that I wasn't supposed to (and when I had issues with a game breaking bug during the final mission), but not for dying. Gaichu and Racter are incredibly good in combat, and the same goes for is0bel and Duncan. On one hand, I shouldn't complain, because, to be honest, I hate it when games give you companions that you feel suck in combat. I only wish that we could develop the characters as we see fit and have direct control of their inventories. There a few big fights, but mostly there were not as many big ones as Dragonfall DC. The enemy variety wasn't too impressive. Even Returns was better in this regard if I remember correctly.
If they decide to make another game in the vein of the three they have already developed, I hope we get a big overhaul of many things. Loot could be a fun addition, but it isn't a must have. Maybe only have it on special enemies. A more open world structure. I'm not saying open world, just make areas feel more connected. I don't want everything to be self contained. Bigger environments, and in general, make the game feel a bit more alive. I also felt that the game didn't run well. It ended up with me checking framrates and what I saw was a bit surprising. It kept going from 60 to 20, to 60 and so on. The game is very poorly optimized. Or maybe my PC is shit, it has more than half a decade on its neck. User interface is in dire need of a n overhaul. The game was developed for PC, make an interface worth of PC games. Everything from quest log to inventory needs to be redone.
The soundtrack was good. I probably prefer Dragonfall's slightly more, but I'd still say that this was a solid soundtrack that I will probably listen to a couple of times now that I am done with the game. In general, I feel that the atmosphere is actually good. Best of the three games. The game is cool and I am happy to have backed it, yet I feel that it isn't as good as Dragonfall. Not much worse, but it still is a clear second. Much better than Returns, though.
During the final mission, the transition icon to progress wasn't interactive, so I had to redo the mission twice before it worked properly. That was a waste of 2 hours of my life. My final playtime according to Steam is 31 hours. I guess that's right if I count some reloads and leaving the game on while doing other stuff.
The writing is a mixed bag. I liked it most of the time, but by the end, I was just quickly skimming NPC dialog in the base hub because it was a bit much to read and not top quality at all times. It also doesn't help that they for some reason felt it is a good idea to have the text to the right for the third time. Just put the text on the lower part of the screen. I don't mind a lot of words in my games. There was a lot of cool stuff to read, but not all of it was good or well written. It's a bit jarring seeing some really well written sections and then some that are clearly not as good. When it comes to the main story: It was decent, just not anything super exciting. I'm not satisfied with the lead up to the ending. I didn't feel that there were enough missions that directly had to do with our main objective. In the end, I say the main story missions were decent, but again not on the level of Dragonfall.
The writing was mostly good during missions, with some misses here and there. Overall, I can't really complain though, but i was not at the same level as Dragonfall. The female companions weren't amazing but still better than Glory and the annoying decker, I always forget his name.
Duncan wasn't bad, but very predictable. I liked Racter and Gaichu. I also like the cyberware dude NPC. The other NPCs, I didn't care much for. The Plastic Faced Man was really underused. I was expecting to see more on that front. I was looking forward to the confrontation with him, the omemtn I have been waiting for finally happens and it turns out to be one of the more underwhelming missions in the game.
I felt that this was the easiest game of the three HBS Shadowrun games. (I do play on Normal.) I got to reload the game once during a run because I accidentally killed an enemy that I wasn't supposed to (and when I had issues with a game breaking bug during the final mission), but not for dying. Gaichu and Racter are incredibly good in combat, and the same goes for is0bel and Duncan. On one hand, I shouldn't complain, because, to be honest, I hate it when games give you companions that you feel suck in combat. I only wish that we could develop the characters as we see fit and have direct control of their inventories. There a few big fights, but mostly there were not as many big ones as Dragonfall DC. The enemy variety wasn't too impressive. Even Returns was better in this regard if I remember correctly.
If they decide to make another game in the vein of the three they have already developed, I hope we get a big overhaul of many things. Loot could be a fun addition, but it isn't a must have. Maybe only have it on special enemies. A more open world structure. I'm not saying open world, just make areas feel more connected. I don't want everything to be self contained. Bigger environments, and in general, make the game feel a bit more alive. I also felt that the game didn't run well. It ended up with me checking framrates and what I saw was a bit surprising. It kept going from 60 to 20, to 60 and so on. The game is very poorly optimized. Or maybe my PC is shit, it has more than half a decade on its neck. User interface is in dire need of a n overhaul. The game was developed for PC, make an interface worth of PC games. Everything from quest log to inventory needs to be redone.
The soundtrack was good. I probably prefer Dragonfall's slightly more, but I'd still say that this was a solid soundtrack that I will probably listen to a couple of times now that I am done with the game. In general, I feel that the atmosphere is actually good. Best of the three games. The game is cool and I am happy to have backed it, yet I feel that it isn't as good as Dragonfall. Not much worse, but it still is a clear second. Much better than Returns, though.
GuiltyofBeingTrite
Savant
It was very easy on Hard, and I didn't have that interesting of a build, just made the PC a rifleman. I think I died once, investigating the tombs underneath the temple.
Are there any GOOD campaigns for Dragonfall Director's cut?
Are there any GOOD campaigns for Dragonfall Director's cut?
Bubbles
I'm forever blowing
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2013
- Messages
- 7,817
I took the Serial Killer mission first and ended up having to reload the (optional) Parking Garage fight five times on hard. Still, most of the difficulty came because I had focussed my main on social skills and ignored consumables (since I'd heard the game was "very easy"), which made them near useless in the battle. That fight was really fun because it was hard; now I'm getting much easier set pieces and it's back to the usual HBS snooziness.
Immortal
Arcane
It's still free cash - since apparently a million dollars funds us a 18 hour campaign?
Like, I doubt they went over budget, so as long as they can keep milking KS this is just free, albeit small, consistent revenue.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 97,484
Lujo
Augur
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
- Messages
- 242
That. Those points.
When did I claim I was a great writer? It doesn't take a "great" writer to not do all those things, it just takes an actual writer instead of handing the job to an enthusiast who seems to lack basic training. Some folks working on it had great ideas, that's obvious, but the execution is often sloppy and inept. And when you get down to why Honk Kong isn't as good as it could be, even though it was well funded, it's in big part because of that. And the resaon I'm fuming is because being a writer with some experience (kill me, it's my job), I know how these things happen and how easy it is to avoid them. A proper, even mediocre writer could sit down with the given text and go through it all and improve it by quite a lot. It's what they do, it's a job like any other, you get hired for these things, there's adds for "I wrote a novel need a professional to make it work" all over the net. I've been handed better and payed to make it flow right, it's pretty much the basic writing grind. But that would be work, and a proper writer wouldn't do it for free. And to actually pull it togather it would need tampering with the missions a bit so that the inital situation of being stranded doesn't go nowhere, the midgame transitions from the inital situation into the late game properly, and so that the late game gets a bit filled out (which means that even a straight-up-writer would need to do some coding of some sort to really get it done).
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Immortal
Arcane
Does the writing have to be accurate if they are trying to summon an image in your head?
Maybe the writer thought square sounded better then rectangle and wanted to stir the emotions of seeing square cloth packets..
GarfunkeL
Racism Expert
Hey, purple prose is awesome! :D
it's a non-euclidean square
Dookins
Educated
- Joined
- May 23, 2015
- Messages
- 77
Clever foreshadowing of the asiatic cthulhu kin.
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