Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

[Crooked Bee]

the only time I died when playing HK on Hard was in the Feng Shui break run where you had to destroy that buddha temple.
Suddenly there were 5 mages outta nowhere who spammed fireballs that dealt 15 DMG each because of the rising Qi or some such shit. I forgot to put one of my characters in cover and the mages all focused on that one, effectively killing her in one turn. I didn't have much medical supplies because I never needed them, so I sent Gobbet to revive Is0bel, only for the mages to knock Gobbet out as Is0bel got away. My PC and Gaichu didn't have much to heal themselves with, and them both being close-ranged melee characters didn't help with staying behind cover from the incoming fireballs.
Is0bel could only shoot missing grenades. Then everyone died by immolation.

That is why you take Racter with you. Almost everyone targets Koschei for some reason.

Although for that run, I actually took Gobbet instead of Racter for a change. (Which came in handy because she could dismiss a hostile spirit right away.) My dodge-y character was the front line so everyone focused on him and missed, after which the mages were promptly dealt with by stunning and grenade launching and then just plain shooting them.

 

[Lhynn]

That is why you take Racter with you. Almost everyone targets Koschei for some reason.

Although for that run, I actually took Gobbet instead of Racter for a change. (Which came in handy because she could dismiss a hostile spirit right away.) My dodge-y character was the front line so everyone focused on him and missed, after which the mages were promptly dealt with by stunning and grenade launching and then just plain shooting them.

I thought dodge only worked on melee attacks.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I thought dodge only worked on melee attacks.

I actually meant Quickness + Dodge. Is Quickness melee only too? Its description didn't mention that.

In which case, I wasted those points -- which had no bearing on the actual gameplay.

 

[Lhynn]

I actually meant Quickness + Dodge. Is Quickness melee only too?

In which case, I wasted those points -- which had no bearing on the actual gameplay.

No, quickness works for both.

And yeah, character system sucks ass, if you minmax in any way youll have more points than you know what you do with, while having scores like int 1, str 1, etc. Which make no sense.

 

[JarlFrank]

Finished the game. Enjoyed it. Final fight was a bit easy, but then, all fights were easy. I liked the first battle against that

Spoiler

Yama Queen,

where I had to blow out the candles and split up my team to do it. The second fight was really easy in comparison. Didn't do the third fight cause I went with the diplomatic solution.

I liked most of the characters, but yeah making Is0bel black didn't make that much sense beyond filling the diversity checklist. She was an okay character though. Duncan was also okay. I liked Gobbet, Racter and Gaichu. Some dialogues were obviously bugged, but nothing that broke my game.

Would play another sequel if they do one. Will play the mini-campaign they want to add.

 

[Crooked Bee]

And yeah, character system sucks ass, if you minmax in any way youll have more points than you know what you do with, while having scores like int 1, str 1, etc. Which make no sense.

Agreed. The worst thing about it, though, is that I didn't even fully min-max. I took the standard Shaman template the game offered at the start, and then invested in (in the order of priority) Charisma+Conjuring, Spirit Summoning+Control, and Quickness+Dodge. That's three things I invested in simultaneously so it's not really min-maxing as I understand it.

 

[Gord]

That's right, 31 unspent Karma points. This is how you know the game is much easier than it should be.

It definitely is. I suspect they don't expect you to take every mission. Or maybe they didn't do so initially but changed plans, considering money is a much more limiting factor than Karma points.

Anyway, if the game would limit the amount of runs you could do in some way, difficulty might scale a bit better due to lower Karma rewards.

 

[Lhynn]

Fuck that, just make the fights harder. and add new optional content in the form of elite missions.

Also gib harder optional objectives.

 

[Owlish]

You're right. Similarly Annah, the brash young tiefling from a marginalised community forced to steal in by the dictates of the hetero-capitalist society of Sigil, is an obvious SJW statement despite having been created a decade before the term was coined. Shadowrun and cyberpunk has always been concerned with the gap between the underclass and elites, there's nothing SJW about it. You don't have to be a mouth-frothing progressive to come to the conclusion that 'ghettoes are bad and have long-term effects on people'. There's nothing in SRHK that tries to push an agenda. Unless you think that going with a slightly more diverse cast is in it itself a SJW statement. And you'd be wrong if you did.

And Gobbet is well-written. She's meant to be precocious and they carry it off really well. Honestly, what kind of characters would you actually like in RPGs if this game is supposedly filled with SJW shit?

The ideas and agendas of "Social Justice Warriors" were around long before there was an Internet buzzword coined for it, it's just another product of "cultural marxism."

Agree to disagree about Gobbet, and really you have shit taste if you think that's good writing. Really shit taste.

To answer your last question: the cast of Kubrick's "The Killing," or Eastwood's "Unforgiven," or Michael Mann's "Heat" or pretty much anything not written by comic book/video game nerds, and the art reflects on real life.

 

[Owlish]

The most recent brain candy media with the most realistic and best written characters including the women was the television show Deadwood.

 

[JarlFrank]

The problem with the combat is that you never have to do anything other than stun + grenade launcher + let them attack Koschei for the lulz + whatever regular/aimed attack you have. This is the easiest RPG I've played in a while.

If you're a Shaman, spirit summoning is nothing more than a gimmick too. I did just fine with basic conjurer spells + Haste and Dual Blur (or whatever it's called) for buffs.

One of the main issues in my experience, is that I never encountered any enemies that could outright kill you. At most, some of them hurt one or two of my team members, but that's it. Maybe if HBS had buffed up the enemy's attack power on Hard, the combat could've been somewhat better.

The one, single big issue with the combat is that enemies don't use more than 1 AP to attack. They shoot once, then move to another piece of cover. They use one offensive spell, then only buffs or move to cover. They even only hit once in melee, then just stand there holding their dicks. Especially in the latter half of the game, this leads to an extreme imbalance: one of your team is worth as much as three enemies in attack power, simply because you have 3 AP you can use entirely on attack, while they never attack more than once. That final fight against the big bad monster would've been really challenging with actual possibility of party wipe if all the creatures would attack more than once per turn.

My main char did both guns and magic, and with Gobbet's speed boost she had 4 AP at the end of the game. That means one big area effect spell like fireball or that lightning blast thing that also does AP damage, followed by two shots with her pistol or shotgun. This way, my main char alone could take out an enemy in a single turn. Then each of my companions uses three attacks too (or 2 attacks if they're not behind cover yet) and the enemy sustains way more damage than they could ever return in one turn of theirs, even if there are twice as many enemies as you have characters in the team.

Changing this would be THE ONE key to making combat truly challenging.

 

[Lhynn]

Owlish
I also believe all games should have quality writing comparable to our some of the most enjoyable works of literature you can find, they should also all have the single best possible gameplay, while being unique because we love variety. Lets not stop there, they are RPGs after all so they should feature the breadth of options PnP gives us while still maintaining all those other high quality standards.

Sadly the only thing we can actually do is judge games and its elements by what other games have done. and by gaming standards Gobbet was well written. If you dont believe so then you have unrealistical espectations and your opinion its kind of a moot point.

 

[Crooked Bee]

JarlFrank Yeah, I never really thought about the AP imbalance, but that makes sense.

Still, whenever most enemies attacked me, they tended to do so in a retarded way and thus missed or did negligible damage most of the time. Which is another issue I guess.

 

[Owlish]

So you're damning them with faint praise, only "well-written" by video game standards. And I don't exactly agree. I think Dishonored did a good job with characters and world building even though I don't like the engine or the gameplay.

 

[JarlFrank]

JarlFrank Yeah, I never really thought about the AP imbalance, but that makes sense.

Still, whenever most enemies attacked me, they tended to do so in a retarded way and thus missed or did negligible damage most of the time. Which is another issue I guess.

Dumb as fuck AI that doesn't properly use the tools it theoretically has at disposal is the main issue with combat balance in this game, yeah, but the AP imbalance is the gravest of these issues. It would make a gigantic difference if you could be attacked twice as often during the enemy turn, or even thrice when everyone has 3 AP.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

I'm not far in the game, but I can say that the Matrix is a fucking decline. It takes forever and I have no fun with it.

 

[Ulminati]

[something Awful]

Score: 9/10

Last time I experienced trying that hard was when I had to crap out a bad indian meal while I had a haemorrhoid.

 

[Lhynn]

So you're damning them with faint praise, only "well-written" by video game standards. And I don't exactly agree. I think Dishonored did a good job with characters and world building even though I don't like the engine or the gameplay.

You are putting dishonored and good writting on the same sentence? You must do some hardcore drugs before your gaming sessions.
And no, im not damning them with faint praise, im saying that they are suficiently well written while having far more elements to juggle than media that is entirely devoted to storytelling and character development.

 

[JarlFrank]

Spotted some obvious grammar mistakes especially in endgame dialogues, but other than that, yeah, the writing is really solid, especially in comparison to the big AAA games that win "best writing in a game 20XX" awards.

 

[Owlish]

You are putting dishonored and good writting on the same sentence? You must do some hardcore drugs before your gaming sessions.
And no, im not damning them with faint praise, im saying that they are suficiently well written while having far more elements to juggle than media that is entirely devoted to storytelling and character development.

Dishonored has much better writing than any Shadowrun Returns title. You think a teen-aged action waif is an example of good and realistic characterization. Quiet yourself.

That excuse doesn't hold water. SRHK is overwritten and it's not one or a few people doing all the parts. It's a relatively big team with each member focused on one or more related task. There are a lot of very good books, movies and games that feature simple stories and are relatively no frills, that's no detriment.

 

[Crooked Bee]

I disagree that HK is overwritten. It does have some unevenly written parts, and occasionally some long-winded parts I mostly skimmed, but the good parts balance that out. It also conveys the atmosphere in what I thought was a pretty good way. I haven't noticed any teen aged action waifus in HK either. (Unless you mean Isobel? Who doesn't even talk much.)

I do believe Dishonored is well written too though, so... (Still, I'm not sure I'd call Dishonored much better written than HK either. In both cases, the writing is good and contributes a lot to the atmosphere.)

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I disagree that HK is overwritten. It does have some unevenly written parts, and occasionally some long-winded parts I mostly skimmed, but the good parts balance that out. It also conveys the atmosphere in what I thought was a pretty good way. I haven't noticed any teen aged action waifus in HK either. (Unless you mean Isobel? Who doesn't even talk much.)

I do believe Dishonored is well written too though, so... (Still, I'm not sure I'd call Dishonored much better written than HK either. In both cases, the writing is good and contributes a lot to the atmosphere.)

I can't remember the writing in Dishonored, but it was a really enjoyable game and it had excellent atmosphere, thanks to the visual design, sound design and level design. Basically, everything about the design of that game was spot on.

I don't see how it relates to Shadowrun: Hong Kong in any way shape or form. The Shadowrun games have a nice visual aesthetic but I don't see any excellence in the design of the games. The quests are good, the level design is good, and the writing is good. Just, 'good', really.

I'm nearly at the end of Hong Kong now. I ragequit yesterday and was wondering whether to go back or not, but I ragequit because of how heavily the Matrix is used in the Prosperity Tower mission, and I think I'll just force my way through it, and let the tears flow. The Matrix is the very worst thing about the game for me. It was tolerable in the previous Shadowrun games, but now it is actively offensive.

 

[Immortal]

Fuck that, just make the fights harder. and add new optional content in the form of elite missions.

Also gib harder optional objectives.

This.. I don't like all the hand holding. Make missions that are actually optional and make some of them really fucking hard.
I think we can all agree that these games are just too fucking easy on Hard difficulty.

 

[Gruncheon]

The ideas and agendas of "Social Justice Warriors" were around long before there was an Internet buzzword coined for it, it's just another product of "cultural marxism."

Agree to disagree about Gobbet, and really you have shit taste if you think that's good writing. Really shit taste.

To answer your last question: the cast of Kubrick's "The Killing," or Eastwood's "Unforgiven," or Michael Mann's "Heat" or pretty much anything not written by comic book/video game nerds, and the art reflects on real life.

I think it's worth noting that you've chosen 3 films about dour men grappling with fatalism and their own dourness. It's fine if that's what you're into (we'd be pretty similar) but that's not the be all and end all of human experience. Do you think there's a possibility that you don't like the women characters in this game because you're just not interested in characters that aren't 'serious' in their inclination and journey?

Similarly, in the case of The Killing and Heat, they're not exactly high art. They're probably pretty bad examples of 'art' elevated above the general run of comic schlock; in fact I'd say there's a big overlap between the kind of people who like nerdy video games and the sort of films you've cited. They're meticulously made, shot beautifully and I love them a great deal but they're both just heist films which hit pretty simple emotional beats.

I agree totally on Deadwood.

 

[Owlish]

I think it's worth noting that you've chosen 3 films about dour men grappling with fatalism and their own dourness. It's fine if that's what you're into (we'd be pretty similar) but that's not the be all and end all of human experience. Do you think there's a possibility that you don't like the women characters in this game because you're just not interested in characters that aren't 'serious' in their inclination and journey?

Similarly, in the case of The Killing and Heat, they're not exactly high art. They're probably pretty bad examples of 'art' elevated above the general run of comic schlock; in fact I'd say there's a big overlap between the kind of people who like nerdy video games and the sort of films you've cited. They're meticulously made, shot beautifully and I love them a great deal but they're both just heist films which hit pretty simple emotional beats.

I agree totally on Deadwood.

I called them brain candy. I think they are good examples, compare them to the films Sin City, John Wick and Kill Bill which are comic book quality dirt.