Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong Pre-Release Discussion [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Anthedon]

There’s this interesting thing that we’re doing now, based on feedback from the audience. We’re allowing you to move in and out of turn-based mode at your command, so that you can position yourself before you open a door, for example, to enter combat. So you’re entering combat with your brick in front and your long-range guy in the back, that kind of thing.

Oh fuck yes.

 

[agris]

RPS: Darkheart says “Haven’t had the chance to play Dragonfall, yet, so I don’t know if it changed by now, but what greatly irked me was the lack of a loot system. That’s kinda half of RPG fun missing for me at least. Will this be rethunk in the Hong Kong iteration?”

Mitch: So we’re not just revamping a loot system or something like that, because it’s really not part of the Shadowrun setting. First of all, you don’t get experience points for killing people, you get what we call Karma for completing objectives or doing things cleverly. For example, in Dragonfall, there are more things to find, more things that drop during the game, but one of the things we’re adding in Hong Kong is the ability to when you pick up something that’s been dropped, you can assign it to any one of your team members. The ability to swap inventory items between your team mates, we’re giving you much more control of that as well.

Jordan: In Shadowrun, we don’t think picking random stuff up off the floor is a lot of fun. So everything that drops on the floor is actually useful in some more significant way.

Mitch: There’s stuff to find though in the game. By searching you can find things, which is more of a Shadowrun thing.

While the question was poorly framed, I think Mitch and Jordan missed the point. We don't want more trash items to sell, we want real itemization. The current itemization system, specifically weapons, lacks any real trade-offs when choosing gear (except for some armors). If you have Pistols at level 7, there is a single dominant pistol at that skill level. Same goes for all classes of weapons, with only the cyber-enabled variants giving a paltry +5% accuracy. We want multiple items at a given power tier with various benefits and drawbacks. I think that's what is being asked for here when they say "loot", not "picking shit up and selling it". DF:DC made a baby-step in this direction with the unique taser and pistol, but there could be a lot variants of weapons that aren't clearly superior to other offerings.

 

[Infinitron]

RPS: Darkheart says “Haven’t had the chance to play Dragonfall, yet, so I don’t know if it changed by now, but what greatly irked me was the lack of a loot system. That’s kinda half of RPG fun missing for me at least. Will this be rethunk in the Hong Kong iteration?”

Mitch: So we’re not just revamping a loot system or something like that, because it’s really not part of the Shadowrun setting. First of all, you don’t get experience points for killing people, you get what we call Karma for completing objectives or doing things cleverly. For example, in Dragonfall, there are more things to find, more things that drop during the game, but one of the things we’re adding in Hong Kong is the ability to when you pick up something that’s been dropped, you can assign it to any one of your team members. The ability to swap inventory items between your team mates, we’re giving you much more control of that as well.

Jordan: In Shadowrun, we don’t think picking random stuff up off the floor is a lot of fun. So everything that drops on the floor is actually useful in some more significant way.

Mitch: There’s stuff to find though in the game. By searching you can find things, which is more of a Shadowrun thing.

While the question was poorly framed, I think Mitch and Jordan missed the point. We don't want more trash items to sell, we want real itemization. The current itemization system, specifically weapons, lacks any real trade-offs when choosing gear (except for some armors). If you have Pistols at level 7, there is a single dominant pistol at that skill level. Same goes for all classes of weapons, with only the cyber-enabled variants giving a paltry +5% accuracy. We want multiple items at a given power tier with various benefits and drawbacks. I think that's what is being asked for here when they say "loot", not "picking shit up and selling it". DF:DC made a baby-step in this direction with the unique taser and pistol, but there could be a lot variants of weapons that aren't clearly superior to other offerings.

It wasn't poorly framed, it was just dumb. (RPS gonna RPS)

Speaking of which, Angthoron, we did want to do an interview too, didn't we? ^_^

Maybe you should we get some more questions from the Kodex Kommunity in this thread.

 

[agris]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

 

[veevoir]

Keep on spammin'.

After all we just need more models for weapons, the rest is already proven to be possible (balancing issues aside): http://www.nexusmods.com/shadowrunreturns/mods/18/?

 

[tuluse]

RPS: draglikepull says “I loved a lot of the improvements in Dragonfall, but the game also had some really long, repetitive combat sequences. Have they given any thought to splitting up some of the longer combat-oriented segments of SR: Hong Kong with some exploration or story in the middle?”

Mitch Gitelman (Harebrained Schemes co-founder): Yes, absolutely. We recognise that some combats had some pacing issues, and we are actively breaking it up into smaller, bite-size chunks.

RPS: Danarchist says “In Dragonfall I found it very difficult to acquire enough resources for some of the longer missions. Most specifically having enough medkits and summons in my inventory to get through the entire mission. When I hit the lab this became especially troublesome and I had to restart from an earlier save. Basically would it be possible to make inventory items like medkits etc stack, or could alternative/optional income sources be added so we do not have a finite amount of creds available?”

Haha oh wow.

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

No, I think the codex universally agrees itemization sucks in the Shadowrun games.

 

[imweasel]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

 

[agris]

Ok, thanks. I actually modified my reply to Infini's post of the RPS article and took it to the KS comments. Maybe we'll hear from HBS.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

 

[Sykar]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

RPS: VexingVision says “Please ask them about branching plotlines. Will the new plot be as rail-roady as the other SR Modules?”

Jordan: One of the things we’re extremely focused on is more content. One of the reasons we’re careful about responding to requests for more feature sets is we want more content, and more content means less linearity. With Dragonfall we took that next to step to less linear, and with this one we’ll take that step even further to less linear. It’s not an open world game, it’s never going to be GTA, but in terms of more branches and choices for a player to move down, we are incrementally getting better and better.

 

[agris]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

A lot of the fun in an rpg is developing your character, and loot is one of most fun ways for me to do it, even HBS recognises that itemization in the game is one of its weakest points, its another step to add drop-able weapons and items.

And why doesnt it fit to have your runner pick up a weapon upgrade from a dead security guard instead of picking it up from a crate in the first two games?

 

[zero29]

... Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

they already did that in dfdc, with custom weaponry (e.g. eigers steyr aug csl) and unique cyberware like the adrenal contractor from the schockwellenreiter.

...

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

i always thought of paydata as the typical shadowrun loot and with a revamped matrix this system could be expanded quite a bit.

 

[Sykar]

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

A lot of the fun in an rpg is developing your character, and loot is one of most fun ways for me to do it, even HBS recognises that itemization in the game is one of its weakest points, its another step to add drop-able weapons and items.

And why doesnt it fit to have your runner pick up a weapon upgrade from a dead security guard instead of picking it up from a crate in the first two games?

No one needs items to develop a character, plenty of other methods available. Seeing how items also ruin the game balance or make it quite a bit more difficult to balance them I'd rather have a lot of options directly from my character stats instead of magical nonsense stuff. It already irritates me that they have clothing and armor with magical bonus out of nowhere for no good reason.
Itemization is also not the weakest part of SRR. Matrix still is.

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Care to elaborate?

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

 

[Gord]

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should have the skill to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Dunno why people keep saying that looting is not part of shadowrun... it's a computer rpg, compromises are always made for better playability and enjoyment... looting = fun.

It doesn't fit Shadowrun at all and they already do plenty of compromises. Loot is also boring, since 99% of all loot in the majority of games is either superfluous or outright junk.

A lot of the fun in an rpg is developing your character, and loot is one of most fun ways for me to do it, even HBS recognises that itemization in the game is one of its weakest points, its another step to add drop-able weapons and items.

And why doesnt it fit to have your runner pick up a weapon upgrade from a dead security guard instead of picking it up from a crate in the first two games?

No one needs items to develop a character, plenty of other methods available. Seeing how items also ruin the game balance or make it quite a bit more difficult to balance them I'd rather have a lot of options directly from my character stats instead of magical nonsense stuff. It already irritates me that they have clothing and armor with magical bonus out of nowhere for no good reason.
Itemization is also not the weakest part of SRR. Matrix still is.

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

Nope, you're not the only one, I also think that itemization could be improved. Unique or very rare items as quest rewards would great.

God no, not this shit.

Care to elaborate?

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

Play the pnp game then, if you are looking 1:1 mechanics, then computer rpg's are not for you.

 

[clemens]

Well, it's true that equipment also plays an important role in P&P Shadowrun. If you're a naked street sam with all your cyberware magically disabled, you're not much of a street sam anymore.
Then again, very good equipment is not really hard to acquire, even for starting PCs. Once you have a couple of assault rifles, combat armor and apds rounds, you're not really wanting for anything more.
Some very rare foci or top notch bioware O) that can slightly reduce the essence cost are the only improvements you will be able to find. Not very game-changing. In that sense, looting in shadowrun indeed doesn't make much sense. Finding a weird and unpredictable protoype weapon/implant/... at the end of an high-level run, that might be more interesting.

 

[veevoir]

Play the pnp game then, if you are looking 1:1 mechanics, then computer rpg's are not for you.

Or for you. Beautiful argument that works both ways. Especially when crpg being close to PnP is a bad thing

Is not getting money as loot enough? Do you need to gather 123 random crap pistols to sell at the shop and get the money anyway? Or is it an atrocity that shop has the best items, because we all know that best items *have* to be found during missions/quests.

Loot drops in most RPGs (not talking about Diablo-likes that are all about loot) is just a unnecessary timesink. Go pick up, repeat, go to shop, sell junk. I'd rather have a longer kist of stuff to buy or some unique pieces as a reward for doing the run exceptionally well (optional paths during run) than run around and collect loot like an idiot.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Play the pnp game then, if you are looking 1:1 mechanics, then computer rpg's are not for you.

Or for you. Beautiful argument that works both ways. Especially when crpg being close to PnP is a bad thing

Is not getting money as loot enough? Do you need to gather 123 random crap pistols to sell at the shop and get the money anyway? Or is it an atrocity that shop has the best items, because we all know that best items *have* to be found during missions/quests.

Loot drops in most RPGs (not talking about Diablo-likes that are all about loot) is just a unnecessary timesink. Go pick up, repeat, go to shop, sell junk. I'd rather have a longer kist of stuff to buy or some unique pieces as a reward for doing the run exceptionally well (optional paths during run) than run around and collect loot like an idiot.

I'm not talking about diablo level of loot, im interested in some enemies dropping a unique item you can use. Does it make sense to face grenade throwing enemies and not be able to replenish your own grenades unless they are looted from a container? If you can scavenge some items for example, it would make sense.

 

[V_K]

Haven't you people already got enough loot hoarding in DOS, MMX and, basically, any other game released in past 10 years at least? Would it really hurt you that much if this one series stays free from that shit?

 

[zero29]

...
A lot of the fun in an rpg is developing your character, and loot is one of most fun ways for me to do it,...

for quite some players a lot of the fun in a rpg is killing enemies and getting xp for that...

...
It already irritates me that they have clothing and armor with magical bonus out of nowhere for no good reason.
...

now you're being unfair. a setting full of arcane magic and futuristic tech is a very good reason to find stat/skill modifiers on equipment. and i wouldn't be surprised if those can be found in the pnp sourcebooks, too.

 

[Sykar]

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

Have you actually played DMS and DF? The karma is so abundant and the AI is so retarded that there is no semblance of balance, your team are indeed demi gods walking around shooting stuff in the face for giggles.

 

[Sykar]

...
A lot of the fun in an rpg is developing your character, and loot is one of most fun ways for me to do it,...

for quite some players a lot of the fun in a rpg is killing enemies and getting xp for that...

...
It already irritates me that they have clothing and armor with magical bonus out of nowhere for no good reason.
...

now you're being unfair. a setting full of arcane magic and futuristic tech is a very good reason to find stat/skill modifiers on equipment. and i wouldn't be surprised if those can be found in the pnp sourcebooks, too.

As someone who played 2nd Ed. P&P that enchanting stuff was hugely expensive and not every Shadowrunner shmuck was running around with it, most never saw one in their entire career, except for fetishes which yielded only a minor bonus to one particular spelll. There were no magical cloths and armor whatsoever and if it existed it was in the possession of someone you never wanted to cross. Dragons or immortal Elves, both very bad news. There is already plenty of upgrades available via Cyberware and soon through magical foci for the magic users.

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

Have you actually played DMS and DF? The karma is so abundant and the AI is so retarded that there is no semblance of balance, your team are indeed demi gods walking around shooting stuff in the face for giggles.

Late game, yeah, earlier like the graveyard was not a walk in the park, especially on very hard. Which is why I consider late game in DMS a steep decline. You really want to add some "UBARR00XX0R" loot crap to that so it gets even easier?