Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong Pre-Release Discussion [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[SarcasticUndertones]

Agreed, but shouldn't that be a designed part of the game, rather than saying "OK, you can have one if you give us an extra $300,000, which, by the by, is 3 times the amount we were asking to get the big game completed."

Brilliant work, SU. Color it the way you want. HBS have said that the kickstarter is a co-funding one, so it's not 100k to complete the full Hong Kong campaign. What about the other 600k and assorted stretch goals past the initial goal? All that's not part of the main game?

How about providing an argument for why the mini-campaign should be part of the main Hong Kong campaign so we can understand your perspective better?

Heh. That's really the only way you can look at it.. we can get something that should be there if we pay extra... are they going to purposefully leave a gap at the end?.. A big "TO BE CONTINUED.." sign instead. It smacks of having to pay for an ending .. just like Bioware pulled... and yes it WAS £100,000 to complete the game.. we were getting 12 hrs and now they've put that up to 20, but EVERYONE AND HIS GRANDMOTHER KNOWS THAT 20 HRS FOR A 'REAL' RPG' IS FAR TOO SHORT.. So all we're going to end up with is a game we'll most probably find is too short (I certainly found DFDC to be too short)..and then we get another few hrs of something different? Why not just one big 25 hr hour campaign with a proper ending we can all get behind, rather than splitting the deck like this?

As for the other stretches, they are for the main game or at least for assets and revamps that the main game can take advantage of and that no doubt the existing campaigns will be 'fixed' to keep up with, but that extra $300k would be for 'stuff' that only specific high level scenarios will take advantage of (if there actually are new assets and it's not just an editor and writing thing)

As for justification as to why the 4-5 hr campaign should be part of the main.... Well mainly because it's a fucking brain dead idea to get yourself into a situation where you are splitting your ideas.

As I've already said elsewhere, if ideas are good enough of a thank you to the backers to get a new mini campaign out of then they should be in the main game, not kept aside. The main one should be the best they can possibly do, not 'The best but we kept some stuff asides"..

Brain Dead, Brain Dead, Brain Dead.. and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Don't get me wrong.. DFDC is the best game this side of the infinity engines stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed it and heartily pat HBS on the back for such excellence... but this idea is fucking stupid.

 

[Tigranes]

I don't entirely disagree with the other stuff, but what the fuck?

As I've already said elsewhere, if ideas are good enough of a thank you to the backers to get a new mini campaign out of then they should be in the main game, not kept aside. The main one should be the best they can possibly do, not 'The best but we kept some stuff asides"..

Hey guys, apparently you create your best games by taking all of your ideas, ranking them 1 to x, then taking the best ones, then putting them all in the same game! And if you can only fit in your top 5 ideas, that's OK, but why not fit in your top 10? Or top 20? Even better! If only they had thought of all the stuff in Van Buren before, they could have put it in Fallout 2!

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

That's a bit better, SU.

A lot of your points have been addressed in this thread already, dunno if you agree with them or not though.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

That's a bit better, SU.

A lot of your points have been addressed in this thread already, dunno if you agree with them or not though.

Lol.. I've only read a smattering of the pages, my fingers work faster than the reading part of my brain.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Lol.. I've only read a smattering of the pages, my fingers work faster than the reading part of my brain.

Hahaha. Hey, me too, man! Made an arse of myself in one of the Bard's Tale 4 threads yesterday. Thought I was onto something, but no. lol

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Lol.. I've only read a smattering of the pages, my fingers work faster than the reading part of my brain.

Hahaha. Hey, me too, man! Made an arse of myself in one of the Bard's Tale 4 threads yesterday. Thought I was onto something, but no. lol

I am the king of arse making.. but then I just say fuck it and I do it all over again :D

 

[tuluse]

EVERYONE AND HIS GRANDMOTHER KNOWS THAT 20 HRS FOR A 'REAL' RPG' IS FAR TOO SHORT

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

EVERYONE AND HIS GRANDMOTHER KNOWS THAT 20 HRS FOR A 'REAL' RPG' IS FAR TOO SHORT

This is why we can't have nice things.

Nice things don't come in packages as short as 20 hrs, only demos of nice things.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Hey I got a story for ya.

I used to do drafting, worked in the oil and gas industry, in a nice office with about 45 staff including the owners/directors of the company. I shared a cubicle with this nice girl, she was a year younger than me. One morning she was away from her desk and one of the directors rocked up with an older gentleman a couple steps behind. He asked me, 'Is Amy in this morning,' to which I replied, 'She is, I think she's left the building for a few minutes.' Director said no prob.

When Amy got back I told her that the director had come around looking for her, and that some 'old fart' was with him. She looked at me with a strange smile and a frown, and I was thinking, 'what's she smiling about?'

She said, 'That's my dad!' Face went red as a tomato, and I started apologizing and saying that he's a handsome man.

And in an office that size, word spreads quick! Within an hour most of the people swung by our cubicle and took the piss out of me. lol

 

[tuluse]

Nice things don't come in packages as short as 20 hrs, only demos of nice things.

I think I can count on one hand the number of RPGs with more than 20 hours of enjoyable content, and all of them still have 10s of hours of pointless time wasting activities. I'm sure you can download a mod to give you pointless random encounters to lengthen the game out for you.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Hey I got a story for ya.

I used to do drafting, worked in the oil and gas industry, in a nice office with about 45 staff including the owners/directors of the company. I shared a cubicle with this nice girl, she was a year younger than me. One morning she was away from her desk and one of the directors rocked up with an older gentleman a couple steps behind. He asked me, 'Is Amy in this morning,' to which I replied, 'She is, I think she's left the building for a few minutes.' Director said no prob.

When Amy got back I told her that the director had come around looking for her, and that some 'old fart' was with him. She looked at me with a strange smile and a frown, and I was thinking, 'what's she smiling about?'

She said, 'That's my dad!' Face went red as a tomatoe, and I started apologizing and saying that he's a handsome man.

And in an office that size, word spreads quick! Within in an hour most of the people swung by our cubicle and took the piss out of me. lol

LMAO.. :D

If I was to say something like that then it's odds on the person would be standing behind me.. the times that has happened to me. :/

OK here's one.

I was on a full bus a few months ago and it finally came to my stop (was taking my mother shopping so she was there) there was a big queue to get off and at the front was a chap in a wheelchair.. and after about 2-3 mins the guy was still struggling to get off the bus while everybody said nothing and didn't even attempt to help him, the driver hadn't lowered the ramp or the suspension, so me being me (way behind in the queue so I couldn't get to him to help him) said (in what I thought was a clear voice) "Will someone help that chap off the bus" and it was obvious I was annoyed (at the people not helping him).

Anyway.. the whole bus fell silent and everyone was staring at me as if I was an a shagger of babies and eater of old women, even my mother was looking at me as if I had shat on the carpet, and then the queue started to thin so there was no time for me to get to the bottom of anything.. anyways upshot is, it had sounded like I'd said "Will someone GET the chap off the bus" in an angry voice..... and I was 'Bastard of the day'.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Nice things don't come in packages as short as 20 hrs, only demos of nice things.

I think I can count on one hand the number of RPGs with more than 20 hours of enjoyable content, and all of them still have 10s of hours of pointless time wasting activities. I'm sure you can download a mod to give you pointless random encounters to lengthen the game out for you.

I must have better hands than you then.

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

LMAO.. :D

If I was to say something like that then it's odds on the person would be standing behind me.. the times that has happened to me. :/

OK here's one.

I was on a full bus a few months ago and it finally came to my stop (was taking my mother shopping so she was there) there was a big queue to get off and at the front was a chap in a wheelchair.. and after about 2-3 mins the guy was still struggling to get off the bus while everybody said nothing and didn't even attempt to help him, the driver hadn't lowered the ramp or the suspension, so me being me (way behind in the queue so I couldn't get to him to help him) said (in what I thought was a clear voice) "Will someone help that chap off the bus" and it was obvious I was annoyed (at the people not helping him).

Anyway.. the whole bus fell silent and everyone was staring at me as if I was an a shagger of babies and eater of old women, even my mother was looking at me as if I had shat on the carpet, and then the queue started to thin so there was no time for me to get to the bottom of anything.. anyways upshot is, it had sounded like I'd said "Will someone GET the chap off the bus"..... and I was 'Bastard of the day'.

Man, that's a good one! Public stuff ups are awesome.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Making a twat of myself in public is a speciality of mine.

I have a hundred stories like that...... and it's never my fault (that's my story and I'm sticking to it.)

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Hahaha, that's the best way to play it! :D

On topic, yesterdays funding took a dive. They managed to get only: $13,981.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/webeharebrained/shadowrun-hong-kong/#chart-daily

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Yeah it's 15k a day for the mil?

I'd really like to see them get as much money as humanly possible, I really would, after DFDC I think they deserve a lot of goodwill and a lot of support.. it's just personally I have other ideas as to what that money should be spent on.. and rather disparaging views on what they think is a good idea. :/

 

[Junmarko]

Btw, anyone heard what the story is with Shadowrun Online? I'm starting to suspect they are going to jump ship fairly soon, the game is literally still bare bones, and they are supposed to be releasing V1.0 in Q1 of this year...

 

[Transfiguring Roar]

Yeah it's 15k a day for the mil?

Roughly that (about $14,240 at the moment), though it's never linear in the second half of a kickstarter.

I'd really like to see them get as much money as humanly possible, I really would, after DFDC I think they deserve a lot of goodwill and a lot of support.. it's just personally I have other ideas as to what that money should be spent on.. and rather disparaging views on what they think is a good idea. :/

Yeah, that's fair enough, man.

Btw, anyone heard what the story is with Shadowrun Online? I'm starting to suspect they are going to jump ship fairly soon, the game is literally still bare bones, and they are supposed to be releasing V1.0 in Q1 of this year...

Sorry, haven't heard anything about that.

 

[Sykar]

Yeah it's 15k a day for the mil?

Roughly that (about $14,240 at the moment), though it's never linear in the second half of a kickstarter.

I'd really like to see them get as much money as humanly possible, I really would, after DFDC I think they deserve a lot of goodwill and a lot of support.. it's just personally I have other ideas as to what that money should be spent on.. and rather disparaging views on what they think is a good idea. :/

Yeah, that's fair enough, man.

Btw, anyone heard what the story is with Shadowrun Online? I'm starting to suspect they are going to jump ship fairly soon, the game is literally still bare bones, and they are supposed to be releasing V1.0 in Q1 of this year...

Sorry, haven't heard anything about that.

Calling SRO bare bones is putting it mildly to be honest. So far there is close to 0 customization, all classes start with the same skills and there is little to do in the game. I would not be surprised if it gets canceled. It looks worse than SRR to boot.

 

[Lord Andre]

Ban those 2 fuckheads above.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Reading this thread I can't help thinking how the attitude to kickstarters and stretch goals has changed over the last couple of years. Initially there was excitement that the game was being made at all and the general sentiment was "the more they get the better the game will be". Stretch goals became more and more prominent over time though, to the point where devs overstretched themselves offering things for a couple of $100k extra which would result in massive scope changes to the core project (eg: DOS and the day-night cycles which were abandoned).

Now we've reached a point where it seems every stretch goal is evaluated as if it costs exactly what the increment is and backers complain if they're not excited by what's offered. The general idea of more funding=longer dev time and a better game is replaced by demands for ever more ambitious features.

HBS have clearly learned from previous kickstarters and decided that ambitious additions to the core game, like the astral space, are out of scope for this project. Their major ambition for this release is improving the matrix. They're also co-funding the project so the initial $100k was not the total cost of the core game. As it's a repeat kickstarter and they weren't sure how much they'd raise, perhaps they hoped for around $600k-$700k to play it safe. Then decided what they wanted to include in the game anyway and added some of those features as early "stretch goals" as every campaign seems to need a lot of "stretch goals" these days.

So there were complaints that the early stretch goals "should have been in the game anyway". The matrix goal was probably their final aim, but just because they guaranteed an improved matrix at $700k doesn't mean they can't further improve on the matrix (and core game) with $800k or $900k. But now, faced with demands for more goals, they've added a free mini-campaign to backers which will come out later, giving them time after the release to focus on the "high-karma" campaign which could pave the way for longer projects in future.

But now some are saying that's "not worth $300k" as if that's a precise budgetary figure, as if every $ between $700k and $1000k will be spent on that and not the core game. It seems some backers are not happy to see them steadily improving with each release and want them to overreach just to get the backers excited.

 

[vorvek]

I'm late to the 14th time the save system was mentioned in this thread; still, I'd like to point out how little it has to be with Unity being the game engine. Many RPGs are done using middleware that isn't RPG centric. Bethesda has been using GameBryo since Morrowind, I think, and so did Larian for Divinity 2. That same engine was used for Civilization IV or the Splatterhouse reboot. Unity has by default a very basic saving system, mostly put in place to save user settings and simple stuff like highscores in mobile games. Anything more involved than that, it's the developer's responsibility. CryEngine or Unreal Engine have this same limitation of allowing you to use whatever saving system you want to develop.

Saving huge lists of variables containing the game state is nothing new in RPGs either. NWN used a text based database in which it would store "campaign variables", which isn't that different from what Shadowrun does, although the saves contained additional stuff such as minimap information, journal state, the character files and such (which still are just long lists of variables). If HBS didn't implement a proper save system from the get-go in SRR, is just because they didn't want to, and the only reason they implemented it later is because it's just really not that hard to do, and made them look better after the backlash from savescummers.

 

[zero29]

...
But now some are saying that's "not worth $300k"...

i'm more puzzled by the claim that writing a single story for a 20h campaign is fundamentally superior to writing two connected stories of 15h and 5h length. i mean HBS already got a clear vision of what the main story + companion side stuff of the HK campaign should be, further extending it by 5h would just encourage them to stuff some filler content into it imo. and in the end it's about the strength of the story itself not it's length.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm late to the 14th time the save system was mentioned in this thread; still, I'd like to point out how little it has to be with Unity being the game engine.

No, we said it was about Unity being the game engine and the development time at their disposal to implement saves in it.

 

[Drowed]

Put me in the group "I see no problem in a more focused game".

For me, the error of many kickstarters is that they have tried to be too ambitious, putting other things in the game beyond what the team was prepared to do. The result ends up being more a ''frankenstein'' than a well planned game. I believe that the HBS did well to define the project scope early. Basically, what they are saying, indirectly, with their stretch goals, is that "we have enough to make the game we planned, but since you are offering us more money, we will, from now on, invest it in things that will not interfere with the main product". Wich in, my opinion is, reasonable, given that the game is already in production. Copying and pasting features at this stage is likely to create a disaster in game balance, half-assed features put in 'just cause we need moar monyes' isn't a good thing.

And it's not like the amount of money would be irrelevant in the base game: I believe that, if necessary, it will be used for this purpose, yes. Depending obviously on the team's needs. Since Dragonfall, they found a very interesting and functional formula. All they need to do is a gradual refinement of it. I prefer that they are cautious and add new ideas only when they are perfectly sure that it will work.