Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

[GarfunkeL]

This is an implementation issue, not a design issue.

A 2 AP system is ideal for combat: every turn either move+action, action+action, extended action, move+move, or action+move. This best combat systems have this; this is ToEE's system as well.

ToEE does not use the same system and it is definitely not ideal for combat. Because if I move 1 tile or 5 tiles, it's the same thing - I've used up my move for that turn. It's retarded. SR could have been so much better with a fine-grain AP system, like JA2 1.13 uses. But no, touch pads and modern retards.

 

[Darth Roxor]

how about using the shadowrun system for a shadowrun game

 

[Lhynn]

ToEE does not use the same system and it is definitely not ideal for combat. Because if I move 1 tile or 5 tiles, it's the same thing - I've used up my move for that turn. It's retarded. SR could have been so much better with a fine-grain AP system, like JA2 1.13 uses. But no, touch pads and modern retards.

Fine grain AP systems are more retarded, because they dont allow for multiple simulatenous actions.

 

[Lhynn]

how about using the shadowrun system for a shadowrun game

Intriguing idea, what drove you to suggest such a thing?

 

[Skittles]

Fine grain AP systems are more retarded, because they dont allow for multiple simulatenous actions.

Could you expand? What specifically does the SRR or XCOM approach let you do that JA2 or X-COM won't?

 

[Lhynn]

Could you expand? What specifically does the SRR or XCOM approach let you do that JA2 or X-COM won't?

What? im not talking in favor of the 2 AP approach, just saying that using movement points and action points is a tad better than using just AP.

 

[Jason Liang]

ToEE's system is slightly more sophisticated, but it's essentially a 2 AP system that adds a free step rule. IIRC, you can move+action, move+move (full run), action+move (with spring attack or some other feat), or take a full action (extended action).

Shadowrun and ToEE's system feels more cinematic to me, compared to Fallout or Arcanum. Take a shot, run to cover, take another shot or two, etc... feels like the bank escape in Heat. As opposed to Fallout where you're trying squeeze as many attacks as you can out of your AP- punch, punch, run from ant! ho ho you can't hit me! That's just math, it doesn't feel tactical, it feels gay.

 

[DeepOcean]

how about using the shadowrun system for a shadowrun game

Wot? Game designers reading? Never!

 

[FritzedProcess]

how about using the shadowrun system for a shadowrun game

Well, the SR system has never been really good to begin with, it just sucked less than Cyberpunk 2020's (which had the far superior setting, if only because it's not full of New Age crap and the geopolitics of an ignorant armed with yesterdays' edition of USA Today). After 5 iterations, they have fixed magic somewhat while messing up other bits, so for example they "simplified" (i.e.: dumbed down) from 4th ed. the way full auto can be used, but not in a satisfactory manner from a simulationist perspective (or from any other perpective; a skirmish still takes a too long and there are too many shenanigans, but I shan't elaborate here). OTOH, the stupid explosives rules would be easier to handle with a computer (there's square roots involved; numbers are small enough that it doesn't really matter that much, but they went full retard there).

 

[GarfunkeL]

Yeah, the SR P&P rules are not optimal, especially for computers.

In JA1 or 2, or in old UFO, I could step out of cover, maybe set off reaction fire, take a shot at the enemy and then get back in cover. Or I could move few steps and still take an aimed shot at the enemy. In SR and Nuxcom I cannot do that. It's not cinematic, it's retarded. In ToEE, I can also move in small steps, I don't have to use the full movement in one go. Again, in pure 2 AP systems I cannot do that because any move uses that 1 AP so you're fucked if you need to fine-tune things.

STOP CHAMPIONING FOR 2AP SYSTEMS!

 

[Jason Liang]

Yeah, the SR P&P rules are not optimal, especially for computers.

In JA1 or 2, or in old UFO, I could step out of cover, maybe set off reaction fire, take a shot at the enemy and then get back in cover. Or I could move few steps and still take an aimed shot at the enemy. In SR and Nuxcom I cannot do that. It's not cinematic, it's retarded. In ToEE, I can also move in small steps, I don't have to use the full movement in one go. Again, in pure 2 AP systems I cannot do that because any move uses that 1 AP so you're fucked if you need to fine-tune things.

STOP CHAMPIONING FOR 2AP SYSTEMS!

Actually, you can move-attack with throwing weapons (throwing knives or shurikens), then move back into cover with 2AP. Hong Kong Dragon Sword and Whip are also functionally throwing weapons.

 

[Darth Roxor]

People advocating for 2 AP systems deserve to be beheaded.

 

[Severian Silk]

Hong Kong is a Story RPG pretending to be an Adventure RPG in an engine designed for Tactical RPGs.
Dragonfall is a Tactical RPG pretending to be an Adventure RPG in an engine designed for Tactical RPGs.

The result? Dragonfall is a game that I wish would never end. Hong Kong is a game where I simultaneously felt both "Wait, it's over already?" and "Hm. I'm kind of glad it's over already."

Engine is not designed for tactical RPGs. Its shit. And that is a fact. Just how unresponsive and sluggish the UI is (delays between clicking and result, no feedback operating menus, delayed navigation, clicking not registering during gameplay, etc etc), is proof enough.

If they ever try to make another one, please choose a different engine. Unity is shit. Or how people implement it is shit. Either way, they need to improve.

I have same experience with Linux, yet people recommend it.

 

[Severian Silk]

Wow this game has a lot of "down time" while you wait for levels to load. The right-aligned dialogue window also sucks and causes eye strain. Why can't they put it in the middle?

Also, WTF did they put a real-time hacking puzzle in this game?? This sucks! How can old people like me play this game with our greatly reduced mental and physical reflexes?

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Severian Silk]

I don't have a high-end PC.

 

[Severian Silk]

I just encountered the SRHK Codex easter egg, lol.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Which one was that?

 

[Ninjerk]

Storage container? Or was that Dead State?

 

[Delterius]

Somebody did not read the Shadowlands Reddit.

 

[Severian Silk]

Codex easter egg is a thread on the shadowland BBS or whatever it's called. Some kind of emergent AI I think.

 

[Delterius]

An emergent AI collective meant to spread the Gospel of Awor.

 

[Severian Silk]

Just finished the main campaign. I don't get why people say this game is hard. I picked the hardest difficulty, and only had to reload a few times. I used the instant revive medkits like twice in the whole campaign. I also don't see why people complain about lack of money. Yeah, I could not buy everything I wanted, but there was always enough to feel comfortable.

 

[Starwars]

I'm replaying this at the moment and I love it, like I loved Dragonfall. Hong Kong is a bit more hit and miss though, especially with the volumes of text. It can bog the game down to be sure but I love the weird mix of asian sensibilities and spirituality combined with the fantasy and sorta "hard-boiled" feel of Shadowrun in general. It's just great fun I think. I love the idea of the Yama-Kings, very folklore-ish and the idea of qi going bad. Crazy stuff but lots of fun.

 

[Jason Liang]

I've been tinkering with Hong Kong since I'm doing some work on the Arcanum Returns project. Looking back, Hong Kong's story is very good, on par with Dragonfall.

Someone should remake Hong Kong with better encounters if HBS can't be arsed to do it.