Shadowrun Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

[naossano]

I am also troubled about choosing very hard for first playthrough.
What will you do to make the second playthrough more challenging ?

 

[Doktor Best]

I dont know why people have problems with hitchances. If youre completely buffed you get like 80% on medium shots, 60-70% on difficult shots and if you flush out your target you most likely have 90-95%. Thats how its supposed to be for my taste, guaranteed hits are boring in this form of combat.

 

[eXalted]

Playing Stitch in Time UGC right now. Some kool mechanics like, clicking on your character opens a menu and you can manually enter turn mode. After that you can sneak (the cover becomes stealth cover) and you can do things like sneak your party behind the enemy and surprise them by entering turn based mode.

 

[ArchAngel]

Very hard is of course hard. Don't play on that difficulty and complain you cannot hit stuff.
And not controlling your companion stats is not new, both fallouts did it.

Well, thank you for the patronizing and useless reply.
Too bad I wasn't "complaining" as much as asking advice.

EDIT: Oh, and for the record there are plenty of games that manage different difficulty settings in ways that are different from "We'll gimp every single one of your stats/dice throws", no there was nothing telling me that "not hitting stuff" is "How it's supposed to be".

To everyone else: well, thank you for your suggestion but i already did most of that stuff, so I guess I'll have to accept how the game is supposed to feel.
Just for the record I was trying a new game at "Hard" while waiting for replies here and Jesus, it's almost like playing two different games for how much easier it gets.

P.S. i also managed to pass the ghoul fight in the sewers on Very Hard, but that's been... expensive in terms of consumables.

It is not useless, it is an eye opening one. If you cannot deal with miss changes in TB games, don't play on high difficulty. Nobody is forcing your to have less fun if you don't find this kind of challenge fun.

 

[almondblight]

I dont know why people have problems with hitchances. If youre completely buffed you get like 80% on medium shots, 60-70% on difficult shots and if you flush out your target you most likely have 90-95%. Thats how its supposed to be for my taste, guaranteed hits are boring in this form of combat.

Glory was usually about 45%-55% unbuffed (+10% buffed) when I played, IIRC (Eiger was a little better I think). Do the level-up stat increases for NPCs depend on which skills you pick? I never thought about that until the end of the game, but it's possible that might have been the reason they felt weak (Glory in general; only Eiger's shotgun seemed weak to me).

 

[Excidium II]

I dont know why people have problems with hitchances. If youre completely buffed you get like 80% on medium shots, 60-70% on difficult shots and if you flush out your target you most likely have 90-95%. Thats how its supposed to be for my taste, guaranteed hits are boring in this form of combat.

That's how you can tell the mechanics suck big time

 

[Alfons]

Is there a way to go through this pos on very hard? I remember Dragonball being a breeze and it seems like they gave the task of rectifying that to some retard.

It seems like all my guys are worse than any of the NPC's and there are more of them, and they don't need to ration their consumables. These motherfuckers consistently hit me through every type of cover while my guys miss people who are in the open in point blank range.

And before anyone, specifically ArchAngel justifies this retardation by saying that it's very hard difficulty. The very hard part is caused purely by bullshit. Unless I'm missing something fucking huge in the strategy department this looks like the F9 difficulty.

 

[Athelas]

It's not very hard, even on Very Hard. If all else fails, remember that you can use your companions' grenades, medkits and fetishes to your heart's content, since they replenish at the start of every new mission. Seek out heavy cover and use the aim spell as much as you can.

Dragonfall's implementation of cover mechanics is a bit questionable though, I agree. I did some tests and I seemed to have the same hit chance when I was pressing up against an enemy's buttcheeks as I did when I was firing at that enemy from across the room and while he was behind cover. The benefit of cover is mainly damage reduction and protection from criticals. Though criticals are extremely common (when attacking someone who's out of cover), so that's quite a benefit, though admittedly not much of a help when you have trouble hitting the enemy in the first place.

 

[Alfons]

I don't know man, I get fucked up by so much bullshit it blows my mind. Even in the first real mission, the club mission. When you meet blitz and open the door to the room with the turret. My PC gets downed half the time. The turret attacks me for around 14-20 damage and then the little bot crits me for 20-25.

I know the thing about the consumables it just doesn't really help. The game basically comes down to a damage race and since more than half the time my NPC's do 0 damage per turn I don't get too far. The thing I did forget to use is the fetishes but if it does is give another asshole that can't hit shit I don't think it's going to help much.

The cover/flanking mechanic is borderline broken. It's rather obvious it was an afterthought that was tacked on and not actually implemented. Shooting a turret straight in the face is a flanking attack...ok, I suppose the turret should have taken cover. And how exactly a guy who is 20 feet away and 10% to the left is flanking me?

This might be a dumb question but does this get fun at some point? I played through the same situation a few times . I did the exact the same thing 4 times. all 4 of them had different results.

 

[Darth Roxor]

werent you saying in another thread just a few days ago that you were 'soloing' dragonfall

i find it somewhat suspicious that you'd go from soloing dergonfall to getting facerolled in the first mission of the dc

 

[Ninjerk]

None of that shit happened to me even on my first playthrough with a shit build.

 

[Alfons]

werent you saying in another thread just a few days ago that you were 'soloing' dragonfall

i find it somewhat suspicious that you'd go from soloing dergonfall to getting facerolled in the first mission of the dc

Soloing the original DMS. Regardless, motherfucker I'm surprised as hell. I don't know if they changed the modifiers or what the fuck they did. It's been a long time since I finished DF but it sure as shit wasn't like this. It seems like every encounter starts with nade spam that shaves off at least 50% HP of at least 2 of my guys.

 

[ArchAngel]

Soloing the original DMS. Regardless, motherfucker I'm surprised as hell. I don't know if they changed the modifiers or what the fuck they did. It's been a long time since I finished DF but it sure as shit wasn't like this. It seems like every encounter starts with nade spam that shaves off at least 50% HP of at least 2 of my guys.

My suggestion is to quit DF and go play Farmville on facebook, that seems to be more the level of difficulty you can manage. At least you will not bitch like a little girl 5 times per page.

 

[Alfons]

My suggestion is to quit DF and go play Farmville on facebook, that seems to be more the level of difficulty you can manage. At least you will not bitch like a little girl 5 times per page.

I honestly don't get why you're up this games' ass so much. Even the story is nothing to write home about so do me a favor and keep your

opinions in your

head.

 

[ArchAngel]

I honestly don't get why you're up this games' ass so much. Even the story is nothing to write home about so do me a favor and keep your

opinions in your

head.

Sure, as soon as you stop bitching like a girl in this topic. If you don't like it, go back to Underrail.

 

[Athelas]

That doesn't sound like such bad advice, actually.

 

[Alfons]

Sure, as soon as you stop bitching like a girl in this topic. If you don't like it, go back to Underrail.

Unfortunately going to Underrail is a no go for now, I'm burnt out at the moment. Instead, let's help each other out. I'll ask you a few question in a calm manner and you answer them, you being the Shadowrun aficionado. That way I'll quit my bitching and you can post something which isn't retarded fanboyism.

How does flanking work? Here is an example. I had Blitz stand behind a guy who was in cover and when I shot him I did reduced damage because he was in cover O_o. That makes me think that simply standing near cover while crouched gives you the bonus. Other times I've been shot by guys who have a very shallow angle on me and they received the flanking bonus. I googled it and it seems I'm not the only one who can't figure out the particularities of the flanking mechanic.

Another thing is the companions, remember that discussion? How do I get Glory, Blitz, or Eiger to have hit chances that are higher than 40-50 percent at the optimal range of their weapons against guys that are not in cover? I am using aim all the time, they still rarely get up to 50%.

Lastly. In my experience, my guys get hit consistently by almost all enemy attacks at almost all ranges while standing behind any type of cover while my guys very rarely hit anyone even in optimal conditions. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

 

[Doktor Best]

I dont know for sure either, but my guess is that you are flanked if you are behind cover and someone is able to shoot at you in a straight line without the cover blocking sight. You are flanked because with the way youre hiding behind the cover you are not able to dodge as well as someone who stands in the open.

You get better hit percentages by positioning in a not retarded way, buffing your companions, and not doing basic mistakes like using sniper rifles on medium or close range on Eiger for example.

Your last point is just RNG bias, because your mind more likely saves memories from drastic RNG fails than aknowledging all those times you passed your RNG check. I am also not the biggest fan of RNG fests, though i got annoyed by it in D:OS way more, i guess workarounds are either reducing difficulty, savescumming, or using every ability and upgrade you got to boost your accuracy.

Basically, you wont have a problem beating the DC on the highest difficulty if you start reading the enviroment and use basic tactics without resorting to combat habits that put you in a bad place over and over again. I can guarantee you that.

 

[Alfons]

I dont know for sure either, but my guess is that you are flanked if you are behind cover and someone is able to shoot at you in a straight line without the cover blocking sight. You are flanked because with the way youre hiding behind the cover you are not able to dodge as well as someone who stands in the open.

In the exampale I gave Blitz was behindt he guy as in there was nothing between them except for air. In the open or at an angle? I've been flanked by guys who are in cover while I'm in cover. They had a very shallow angle on me less than 30 degrees.

You get better hit percentages by positioning in a not retarded way, buffing your companions, not using sniper rifles on medium or close range on Eiger for example.

Didn't I write "optimal range"? And isn't standing in a position that gives you a completely clear line of sight constitutes as "not retarded'?

Your last point is just RNG bias, because your mind more likely saves memories from drastic RNG fails than aknowledging all those times you passed your RNG check. I am also not the biggest fan of RNG fests, though i got annoyed by it in D:OS way more, i guess workarounds are either reducing difficulty, savescumming, or using every ability and upgrade you got to boost your accuracy.

No, it's not. People usually bring up this point when some claims to be missing a lot with high hit chances. I'm talking about the numbers the game actually displays.

Basically, you wont have a problem beating the DC on the highest difficulty if you dont play bad, i can guarantee you that.

How exactly do you play bad? This game is incredibly shallow especially in the first stages of the game. there is not much you can actually do. The greatest tactic you can employ is to run into the previous room and by doing so regain initiative since your guys will be in positions of cover while the AI will have to run in and start scrambling for position. The problem is that you can't really capitalize on that since the NPC have more guys, better accuracy, and they can use their consumables as if it's the only battle they'll have, since it is.

 

[ArchAngel]

Unfortunately going to Underrail is a no go for now, I'm burnt out at the moment. Instead, let's help each other out. I'll ask you a few question in a calm manner and you answer them, you being the Shadowrun aficionado. That way I'll quit my bitching and you can post something which isn't retarded fanboyism.

How does flanking work? Here is an example. I had Blitz stand behind a guy who was in cover and when I shot him I did reduced damage because he was in cover O_o. That makes me think that simply standing near cover while crouched gives you the bonus. Other times I've been shot by guys who have a very shallow angle on me and they received the flanking bonus. I googled it and it seems I'm not the only one who can't figure out the particularities of the flanking mechanic.

Another thing is the companions, remember that discussion? How do I get Glory, Blitz, or Eiger to have hit chances that are higher than 40-50 percent at the optimal range of their weapons against guys that are not in cover? I am using aim all the time, they still rarely get up to 50%.

Lastly. In my experience, my guys get hit consistently by almost all enemy attacks at almost all ranges while standing behind any type of cover while my guys very rarely hit anyone even in optimal conditions. Is that the way it's supposed to work?

In the example you described your guy should have flanked the enemy if there was no cover between you and him, maybe it was a bug. But I am not sure if when you are flanking you get critical hits always or there is just a bigger chance. As for defending against flanking, well yes the cover is kind of easily ignored. As soon as you are about 40 degree away from enemy they will get a flanking bonus, it is not like Xcom 2012. Best defense in the game is actually armor.

You cannot get companion hit chance bigger except by using Aim spell or debuffs. Easiest thing to do it get them more AP and hope they hit often. That is how it works on Very Hard, it is called Very Hard for a reason. Even PoE does it this way by having all enemy stats buffed so they are harder to hit while your guys are easier to hit.

As I said, armor is you best line of defense. Also using lots of summons. Or you can reduce difficulty to Hard.

 

[Alfons]

In the example you described your guy should have flanked the enemy if there was no cover between you and him, maybe it was a bug. But I am not sure if when you are flanking you get critical hits always or there is just a bigger chance. As for defending against flanking, well yes the cover is kind of easily ignored. As soon as you are about 40 degree away from enemy they will get a flanking bonus, it is not like Xcom 2012. Best defense in the game is actually armor.

It's not even that I didn't get the flank. The guy got a cover damage reduction.

I think tacking on the cover mechanic is part of what makes DC more difficult than DF. In the original you could just get your guys in cover buff the PC and exchange bullets until you win. Repeated full auto attacks usually out damaged anything the enemies had. With the introduction of the blocked and cover damage reductions instead of HC reductions an 11 damage assault rifle can have hits as weak as 3. Which means you either need to flank or get people out of cover, doing the latter means relying on your companions and their extremely low hit chances which doesn't work well. The flanking option means constantly moving your PC which means less attacks which means less damage. That would be alright if your opposition would have been as incompetent as your friends, but they're not. Seeing as they can actually hit people they can spread out and actually take advantage of the flanking mechanic, even if they do so incidentally. Which brings it back to combat being a damage race. With chances stacked against you it's very hard to go through it without getting very lucky, which is a shame.

They have the ideas that can make a great turn based combat system but they took the lazy way out. They made it purely about the numbers. If they made hit chances much higher this could've been an interesting combat system which stresses positioning, instead they made it about RNG. The former could still be the case on lower difficulties but only if the AI is better, which I doubt. On very hard the intentionaly stupid AI is the only thing keeping you alive. I saw someone mention how rigidly coded they are. Only throwing grenades when at least 2 people are pressed to each other. Forget about that, how about the fact that they rarely focus anyone? I lost count of how many times I had a guy who is one hit away and the enemy that is in front of him runs back, takes cover and shoots someone else.

Overall I'm genuinely disappointed, kinda strange since I don't have much faith in these people. I think I mentioned before that I think these guys are either lazy or incompetent. They had an interesting simple mechanic but they didn't know or didn't try to implement it properly. They just tacked it onto an existing game without modifying anything else to actually make it an inherent part of the game rather than an afterthought.

 

[Rivmusique]

This is like that thing Roguey/JESawyer was talking about.

 

[DeepOcean]

I think tacking on the cover mechanic is part of what makes DC more difficult than DF. In the original you could just get your guys in cover buff the PC and exchange bullets until you win. Repeated full auto attacks usually out damaged anything the enemies had. With the introduction of the blocked and cover damage reductions instead of HC reductions an 11 damage assault rifle can have hits as weak as 3. Which means you either need to flank or get people out of cover, doing the latter means relying on your companions and their extremely low hit chances which doesn't work well. The flanking option means constantly moving your PC which means less attacks which means less damage.

I finished the game with a shitty, badly made melee adept that tried being a knife thrower and shaman at same time and lost essence with shitty cyberware, if my character finished the game easy even on very hard, any other character build can finish it too. I remember Eiger cutting enemies to pieces with her sniper rifle and later an assault rifle I bought for her and I remember Glory melee attacks and a taser gun were really helpful so those supposed ultra low hit rates didn't impacted me.

That would be alright if your opposition would have been as incompetent as your friends, but they're not. Seeing as they can actually hit people they can spread out and actually take advantage of the flanking mechanic, even if they do so incidentally. Which brings it back to combat being a damage race. With chances stacked against you it's very hard to go through it without getting very lucky, which is a shame.

Never allow the combat to be this way, I think you are insisting on playing Director's Cut as if it was Dragonfall and it is not. Don't try to shoot enemies through heavy cover, always pay attention if an enemy is out of cover and focus fire on him, if a runner is marked as flanked (you can see on the tooltip) get him the fuck out of there and try to flank the bitches but always paying attention if your character can be flanked.

They have the ideas that can make a great turn based combat system but they took the lazy way out. They made it purely about the numbers. If they made hit chances much higher this could've been an interesting combat system which stresses positioning, instead they made it about RNG. The former could still be the case on lower difficulties but only if the AI is better, which I doubt. On very hard the intentionaly stupid AI is the only thing keeping you alive. I saw someone mention how rigidly coded they are. Only throwing grenades when at least 2 people are pressed to each other. Forget about that, how about the fact that they rarely focus anyone? I lost count of how many times I had a guy who is one hit away and the enemy that is in front of him runs back, takes cover and shoots someone else.

When you know how to play, RNG is a non-issue and that is true for most RPGs. I've seen plenty of whining about RNG and most of the time is the player doing stupid shit like forgetting there is reaction fire and walking their guys on the middle of a group of enemies on NuXCOM, for example, then complaining when the RNG doesn't save them from their mistakes.

Overall I'm genuinely disappointed, kinda strange since I don't have much faith in these people. I think I mentioned before that I think these guys are either lazy or incompetent. They had an interesting simple mechanic but they didn't know or didn't try to implement it properly. They just tacked it onto an existing game without modifying anything else to actually make it an inherent part of the game rather than an afterthought.

I think they could make the cover mechanics better, especially by making clearer on what situations you are flanked and what are the rules of flanking but the system they implemented actually made the game better because lazy tactics like assault rifle + burst fire behind cover aren't so easy to pull off as before (while still pretty much effective) and cover is much more relevant now so if their system worked even if a bit wonky how are they incompetent? I think your butthurt is stopping you to learn how the cover system works.

The first time I played, I got murdered and I didn't understand what was going on until I got that a single metal box even if heavy cover is actually terrible cover unless the enemies are far away from you as on reality if you expect a single box will protect you from multiple angles, you are going to be disappointed. I learned that the game was only to shoot enemies out of cover and never allow my guys to be flanked even if that meant retreat, stun grenades and crowd control became alot more important too.

 

[Dreaad]

Soloing the original DMS. Regardless, motherfucker I'm surprised as hell. I don't know if they changed the modifiers or what the fuck they did. It's been a long time since I finished DF but it sure as shit wasn't like this. It seems like every encounter starts with nade spam that shaves off at least 50% HP of at least 2 of my guys.

There was actually a bug a while back.... that every time you reloaded the game your difficulty setting in terms hit/miss percentages would get reapplied and it would stack. Supposedly they fixed it. But if you honestly can't hit the enemy at all and they always hit you, there's a chance you have that bug.

 

[Ninjerk]

There was actually a bug a while back.... that every time you reloaded the game your difficulty setting in terms hit/miss percentages would get reapplied and it would stack. Supposedly they fixed it. But if you honestly can't hit the enemy at all and they always hit you, there's a chance you have that bug.

Was the new, bugged hit chance visible or would it appear as soemthing higher?