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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

clemens

Cipher
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Codex 2014 Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
T"pretty environments" in Dragonfall entailed some fairly developed interactions with the environment

I liked both DMS and Dragonfall, but this I don't remember... ?

Some missions made good use of the parser/key pad - stuff like needing to research which chemicals were needed to render a poisonous gas inert (and then telling the system which gas to put in) or guessing a persons password from the personal stuff they had in their office. Nothing mind-blowing, but certainly a step above the "click to win" skill checks you usually get. Being able to hack cameras was also a nice touch.

Yes, forgot about those, they were a little better. Though I remember taking the time to hack turrets and cameras in the Humanis run only to find out they were pretty much useless when that character could just have been whacking thugs the whole time, that was annoying. Anyway, those are a nice touch and I hope they will continue to add them and improve upon them.
 

Kem0sabe

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Despite all the great things in Dragonfall it's still an entirely scripted experience, there's no emergent gameplay mechanics, every environmental interaction, encounter, everything was hand placed and scripted to act thus, while DOS allowed for a lot of player agency.

Heck, Dragonfall doesn't even have a proper persistent world state between missions.
 
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Gregz

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Despite all the great things in Dragonfall it's still an entirely scripted experience, there's no emergent gameplay mechanics, every environmental interaction, encounter, everything was hand placed and scripted to act thus, while DOS allowed for a lot of player agency.

Heck, Dragonfall doesn't even have a proper persistent world state between missions.

Yes. They are both good games for different reasons.

I think the Codex consensus is, the best game would have D:OS gameplay mechanics coupled with Dragonfall story arcs, as those are the other's weakest element.
 

veevoir

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech
D:OS deserved to win because on the Codex, ambition and open-endedness are always rewarded over conservatively "tight" design. You're talking about a game where you can do all sorts of stuff in an interactive world versus a game where you fight battles and click dialogue options in pretty environments.

It wasn't a long time ago that HBS was considered a hopeless case on this forum, so they should be plenty proud of reaching second place.

What's more important though, failing (abysmally) on big dreams, that ultimately reduce the quality of your efforts and produce something that can be pointed to, and with certainty, said to be subpar or unsatisfying? Or sticking to tight design and creating something of a smaller scale that fullfils in almost all of it's goals?

I like big ideas.. but I like competence better.

That is actually a fair poitn and the reason I felt DOS was underwhelming. Sure there were so many ways to dick around (this is a big plus, as far as "open world" design goes Larian did very good in that regard), but the world itself didn't fight very hard to even draw me into story. Granted, that was second Larian game I tried in a long time (other was ego draconis) - but in both cases my storyfaggness was left unsatisfied and lonely.

I'd definitely put DOS in top 3 for last year, but still - Aiming big and getting only some of it < aim for tight RP experience and get what you wanted.
I have no problem ignoring mechanical clunkiness, but story falling flat is a big turn off in RPG, at least for me.

So here, an opinion. And yes, everyone would love Larian game design + HBS story dsign, sadly not going to happen ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW4q-Zg0VSc&t=1h57m19s
 

Bleed the Man

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
The entire game is fucking awesome. A bit lacking in c&c and maybe a too simplistic character system, but everything else is a massive incline over just about anything released in the last decade. If we redone the top 70 list today this would deserve to be in top 10 at least, maybe top 5.

I'm still :retarded: as to how people preferred D:OS.

I loved Dragonfall, and now that I'm playing the Director's Cut I love it even more, but seriously, top 10/5 of all time? Better than anything released in the last decade, when we have had things like Mask of the Betrayer or New Vegas?

Dragonfall is a game that doesn't offer much but what it offers does it really well, but I definetly don't think it's better than any of the top 10 RPGs listed on that list, nor a lot of the lower ranked games.

Also, Divintiy Original Sin is better, deal with it +M
 

SarcasticUndertones

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The entire game is fucking awesome. A bit lacking in c&c and maybe a too simplistic character system, but everything else is a massive incline over just about anything released in the last decade. If we redone the top 70 list today this would deserve to be in top 10 at least, maybe top 5.

I'm still :retarded: as to how people preferred D:OS.

I loved Dragonfall, and now that I'm playing the Director's Cut I love it even more, but seriously, top 10/5 of all time? Better than anything released in the last decade, when we have had things like Mask of the Betrayer or New Vegas?

Dragonfall is a game that doesn't offer much but what it offers does it really well, but I definetly don't think it's better than any of the top 10 RPGs listed on that list, nor a lot of the lower ranked games.

Also, Divintiy Original Sin is better, deal with it +M

:shunthenonbeliever:
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
I picked this up on the weekend based on codex placement I'm the top for 2014. I am really enjoying it so far. I am still in the honeymoon phase but if I get 30 hours out of it I will back Hong Kong for sure.
 

Seaking4

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I just played this for the first time. It was fun. I also liked DMS but this one was better. I really enjoyed the music that played in the hub part of the game. Saw that for Hong Kong there getting that guy to do the entire soundtrack so I'm excited. It was still too easy though.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
Another 4 hours melted away this evening. I made a conscious decision to avoid any meta information before playing so I am learning as I go here but it is fun so far.

One thing that is a little annoying is the inability to transfer items between team members during a run - though I suspect it is this way to keep from making things too easy. I am playing on hard.
 

Cadmus

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Another 4 hours melted away this evening. I made a conscious decision to avoid any meta information before playing so I am learning as I go here but it is fun so far.

One thing that is a little annoying is the inability to transfer items between team members during a run - though I suspect it is this way to keep from making things too easy. I am playing on hard.
I hope that for Hong Kong they improve the inventory system to something logical and normal, even if they were to keep the team members' stuff fixed as it is.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Grab the Codex by the pussy Serpent in the Staglands
Another 4 hours melted away this evening. I made a conscious decision to avoid any meta information before playing so I am learning as I go here but it is fun so far.

One thing that is a little annoying is the inability to transfer items between team members during a run - though I suspect it is this way to keep from making things too easy. I am playing on hard.
I hope that for Hong Kong they improve the inventory system to something logical and normal, even if they were to keep the team members' stuff fixed as it is.

I like the idea of handing an item to a nearby teammate for the cost of 1 AP or throwing an item towards a distant teammate (with hit/miss calculations determining proximity) for 2 ap. In the second case, the receiving teammate must spend 1ap picking the item off the floor and potentially more if the teammate 'misses' and you have to walk over to pick it up.

For bonus points, enemies can pick an item up off the floor if they move first, and bad misses result in items being lost if missing the catwalk, over the cliff edge etc.
 
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bross i have a question. this game is all about killing bunch of knight errants/thugs ? Or is there something i am missing? I just finished the mkvi mision and so far the actual gameplay is just borring as fuck:negative: last 5 quests were just me running from one "active icon" to next one throwing shitty looking spells in the meantime. Maybe i chose shitty class (elf/Mage) but waiting 4 rounds to cast another fireball is just fucking shit.

This game gets better right? I may restart with decker or rigger clas if second half of the game is better.

i like so far story,characters,setting and visuals/audio are ok. But the gameplay is so underwhelming i mean this was supposed to be so much better than dead Man switch:retarded:
 

Greatness

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bross i have a question. this game is all about killing bunch of knight errants/thugs ? Or is there something i am missing? I just finished the mkvi mision and so far the actual gameplay is just borring as fuck:negative: last 5 quests were just me running from one "active icon" to next one throwing shitty looking spells in the meantime. Maybe i chose shitty class (elf/Mage) but waiting 4 rounds to cast another fireball is just fucking shit.

This game gets better right? I may restart with decker or rigger clas if second half of the game is better.

i like so far story,characters,setting and visuals/audio are ok. But the gameplay is so underwhelming i mean this was supposed to be so much better than dead Man switch:retarded:

Play on very hard to make the combat a bit more interesting. I think Mage or Adept are probably the most fun classes since they have more variety in ability choices.

It really is a game that is played for the writing/setting though, the combat is passable but it's not exceptional.
 

roshan

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I hope that Divinity fans had fun slaying "sourcerers" :lol:. It isn't even funny in a lighthearted and tongue in cheek way, it's funny in a "this is so retarded and pathetic that it's hilarious that people are actually entertained by it" way. The combat seemed pretty good though, and the character system looked like it had quite a bit of depth, too bad it was 3D.

Last year was pretty damn good and I think Dragonfall, Lords of Xulima and Banner Saga would all be on my top 10 list of 1997 onwards RPGs.
 

Cadmus

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I hope that Divinity fans had fun slaying "sourcerers" :lol:. It isn't even funny in a lighthearted and tongue in cheek way, it's funny in a "this is so retarded and pathetic that it's hilarious that people are actually entertained by it" way. The combat seemed pretty good though, and the character system looked like it had quite a bit of depth, too bad it was 3D.

Last year was pretty damn good and I think Dragonfall, Lords of Xulima and Banner Saga would all be on my top 10 list of 1997 onwards RPGs.

I really liked Div OS but this is exactly what I thought when I first saw "sourcerer"
 
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The entire game is fucking awesome. A bit lacking in c&c and maybe a too simplistic character system, but everything else is a massive incline over just about anything released in the last decade. If we redone the top 70 list today this would deserve to be in top 10 at least, maybe top 5.

I'm still :retarded: as to how people preferred D:OS.

I loved Dragonfall, and now that I'm playing the Director's Cut I love it even more, but seriously, top 10/5 of all time? Better than anything released in the last decade, when we have had things like Mask of the Betrayer or New Vegas?

Dragonfall is a game that doesn't offer much but what it offers does it really well, but I definetly don't think it's better than any of the top 10 RPGs listed on that list, nor a lot of the lower ranked games.

Also, Divintiy Original Sin is better, deal with it +M

Divinity OS sucked me in and I had to tear myself away if I wanted to stop. I've only just started Dragonfall but I'm having to force myself to keep going.
 

Anthedon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Just finished my first playthrough of the Director's Cut with a conjurer. Earth elementals are hilarious, even the standard attack reduces the target's action points.

Sided with

Vauclair in the end. I like how everything goes to shit and Audran and the protagonist share some liquor after Vauclair offs himself. The end.
 

Admiral jimbob

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Finally played this after picking it up at the Christmas sale. Very impressed overall.

It's an interestingly "lite" RPG - sometimes to its detriment, sometimes not. It's thus interesting that it's had a lot of Codex attention and seems to have overall redeemed HBS here, and I've been thinking a bit about what it does right, particularly compared to the other games this year.

The writing grabbed my attention quickly, despite it being seemingly full of pitfalls. The setting is fucking idiotic (especially the stupid Cthulhu bullshit Jesus Christ) but for some reason it's growing on me even though I should know better. The companions are Biowarean to a fault, if better-written; Glory, the cold and distant young girl who must be coddled into opening up about her tragic past at the hands of the intolerant patriarchy and a string of evil manipulative cis men. Eiger, the tough military veteran who eventually softens up and reveals why she can't trust some unproven rookie, but eventually comes to respect you. Dietrich... actually, Dietrich just fucking owns. Blitz mostly just seems like a manager ran into the room at one point and shouted "WE'RE RELEASING IN A MONTH AND YOU FORGOT A DECKER NPC YOU IDIOTS". Still, I liked them all. It wears its tropes and influences on its sleeve, but for some reason it all fits with the game's pulpy, not-altogether-taking-itself-seriously vibe. I actually cared about Glory (once she started actually fucking hitting stuff anyway urrrrgh), I wanted to prove a good leader and get Eiger's respect, and I want to get drunk with Dietrich and talk about smashing the system. It all works. I guess that's the difference between being a good pulp writer who knows the medium and how to use it, and being a fat cat lady company who hate video games and want to make very serious and artistic Joss Whedon films.
Same with the plot. I think, overall, it was a mistake that the overarching story was set up as stopping a big bad evil dragon. I didn't give a shit, and I know that everything wasn't as it seemed, of course it wasn't, but that still means I spent 90% of the game not giving the slightest shit about the main story arc. That's stupid. The end few missions were fun, though, and everything up to that point worked as a superb excuse for the meat of the game; exploring Berlin, getting to know the Kreuzusausage, and doing dirty deeds for money. And it was extremely my shit.
The setting and atmosphere were extremely well-done, and the dialogue and individual stories of the runs were consistently excellent. In particular, some of the diplomatic solutions are extremely well-done; thinking in particular of Marta and Vauclair. They're not as simple as having the right skills and options available; you need to have paid attention to items, other dialogues and computer logs to know the right things to say, and then approach the conversation in a way that convinces the person. I had to reload once or twice to convince Marta despite having taken all the necessary steps, simply because I pissed off either her or Glory by saying the wrong thing. I never did convince Vauclair. That's good stuff. The choices were consistently morally grey in ways that weren't usually stupid, albeit generally lacking consequences. This didn't bother me as much as it usually does, more on that later.

The combat wasn't anything amazing, but I enjoyed it a lot - in particular, Wasteland 2 is downright embarassing by comparison. Usually short and to the point, with fun skill synergy and a good range of options, I can imagine it playing out very differently if I go back through with a different character and team. It was consistently fun and satisfying. The endgame was short on challenge as RPGs often are, degenerating into what Gozma (I think) called "a showcase of look at what my cool RPG mans can do", but that's fine when it's done rewardingly. And lining up and killing four people at once with three chain shots in one round was very, very rewarding.
One problem I had - I'm new to Shadowrun, so I don't know if my build was just inefficient, but I was playing as a ranged/melee Street Samurai without too many other skills (body, some biotech and charisma for dialogue checks), and I had to give up putting karma into melee about halfway through, as it was the only way I was going to get level 7 in pistol for chain shot. I don't know if that's normal or if Dragonfall is just a bit stingy on the karma front, but I've seen people say DMS gave out more, and coming back from - say - Blitz's mission with no monetary reward for a measly 2 karma definitely stung a bit.

The art and sound design are gorgeous, barring a few ugly portraits/character models (Lofwyr's giant fuckin nose wtf :lol: ). The environments sometimes looked a wee bit too sterile, but I guess that could be an intentional decision. Consistent and pretty, not much else to say. The soundtrack was great and fit the mood perfectly.

The quest design - tied in with the writing, which is why I put it several paragraphs later, eat my dick - is easily the game's strongest suit. Filled with multiple paths, making good use of the Matrix (though I feel like the Matrix itself is a bit limited - maybe you can do more as a player Decker? Either way, HBS seem determined to improve and overhaul this area in Hong Kong), with non-lethal options, skill choices abounding, optional objectives, side jobs for the Lodge and the Schoggerdoobies, all the good shit. Other than one fairly anemic sewer quest where I wandered backwards and forwards shooting boring ghouls to turn boring switches for what felt like hours but was probably only about 20 minutes, I guess, which is yet more proof that sewer levels are fucking terrible even in otherwise great games. Other than that, the quest design encapsulates the game's less-is-more design; it works very well within the limited systems it has, meaning that there's no filler, no bullshit, just minute-by-minute straightforward, good, varied content. I don't have as much time as I used to for gaming so I appreciate this a lot; wouldn't want every game to be that way, but I'm glad some are. There were strong hands guiding this project and everything has been placed and done very deliberately; the opposite of the feel I get from the bloated and flawed Wasteland 2, which I did like well enough.

Back to the elephant in the Matrix, then. The design. I've seen HBS' games dismissed as "tablet RPG-lites" many times, and frankly, I understand the criticism completely. Everything is simple and straightforward, often frustratingly so. The party system is caught in a weird limbo between party-based and single-character and can't seem to make up its mind which it wants to be; henchmen can pick up items as long as they're in combat, but not otherwise, and you can't offer to give them anything. You can "loan" them items from your "stash" at the start of each mission and that's it. You don't control what they put points into. Oh, you want Dietrich to be able to cast fireball? Too bad, he's not levelling spellcasting today, he's levelling throwing weapons instead. Some panels and computers in the world let you step aside so Blitz can hack them, but not all. Why? Because HBS doesn't feel like giving you a freebie on that one. It's a very artificial and frustrating limitation that consistently makes the player feel like he's not really controlling a full party. Environmental interaction is similarly limited. You can blow some stuff up but not other stuff. You can summon spirits from some things but not what looks like the same fucking thing to me. You get the picture. Similarly, the interface is rather poor and limited, and isn't always consistent in what buttons do what - it's very obviously designed with tablets in mind.

The good news is that HBS seem to have taken all of this into account and are promising to improve upon it for Hong Kong. In line with the improvements that seem to have been made from DMS to Dragonfall, that speaks very good news about a young developer eager to listen to feedback and improve its games based on criticism; if this keeps up, and if Hong Kong is the same improvement upon Dragonfall that Dragonfall was on DMS, then it'll be the best £15 I've spent in a long time.

In short: 8/10, makes Brian Fargo cry, not as good as Original Sin but closer than expected
 

Ninjerk

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giphy.gif


It's not a shitpost. What am reading?!
 

agris

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The writing grabbed my attention quickly, despite it being seemingly full of pitfalls. The setting is fucking idiotic (especially the stupid Cthulhu bullshit Jesus Christ) but for some reason it's growing on me even though I should know better. The companions are Biowarean to a fault, if better-written; Glory, the cold and distant young girl who must be coddled into opening up about her tragic past at the hands of the intolerant patriarchy and a string of evil manipulative cis men. Eiger, the tough military veteran who eventually softens up and reveals why she can't trust some unproven rookie, but eventually comes to respect you[...]
I've read a decent amount of Lovecraft short stories, in addition to At the Mountains of Madness and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, and I don't see the comparison.. at all. What do you mean?

Also, while the companions have predictable character arcs (or lack there-of for Dietrich, because the Director's Cut makes you think you can change his Nihilistic point of view but that line of conversation never comes to a firm conclusion) they aren't anywhere near what I would call Biowarean. Glory and Eiger in particular don't want to engage the player, and need to be actively pestered to share their stories with you. Furthermore, it's quite easy to pick the wrong text options and shut down their background expositions. For example, when you convince Glory to finally tell you what happened when she was a kid, if you select any questions or judgmental comments, she shuts down and you can't continue. I think if this happens multiple times, the quest is shut off (but I'm not positive). With Eiger, it's somewhat similar when she's telling you what happened to her unit when they were going after the Russian pimp mafia. The key difference is that you must actively elicit their stories and quests, it isn't put in your face.

For all the companions, it's not just possible to ignore their personal stories but outright antagonize them and have them react with hostility towards you throughout the game. They don't bat their eyes and give you an easy fuck, so to me, so they don't seem very Biowarean.
 

Admiral jimbob

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The writing grabbed my attention quickly, despite it being seemingly full of pitfalls. The setting is fucking idiotic (especially the stupid Cthulhu bullshit Jesus Christ) but for some reason it's growing on me even though I should know better. The companions are Biowarean to a fault, if better-written; Glory, the cold and distant young girl who must be coddled into opening up about her tragic past at the hands of the intolerant patriarchy and a string of evil manipulative cis men. Eiger, the tough military veteran who eventually softens up and reveals why she can't trust some unproven rookie, but eventually comes to respect you[...]
I've read a decent amount of Lovecraft short stories, in addition to At the Mountains of Madness and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, and I don't see the comparison.. at all. What do you mean?
The background stuff (which mostly comes up in dialogue with Absinthe/Lofwyr) about the "Horrors". I did some reading into the setting/lore while playing, since it's new to me, and they seem like pretty textbook Lovecraft beasties; eldritch monstrosities from another dimension waiting to cross the Gate and devour humanity, the true natures of which are so horrifying that just to know too much about them drives men insane.

Also, while the companions have predictable character arcs (or lack there-of for Dietrich, because the Director's Cut makes you think you can change his Nihilistic point of view but that line of conversation never comes to a firm conclusion) they aren't anywhere near what I would call Biowarean. Glory and Eiger in particular don't want to engage the player, and need to be actively pestered to share their stories with you. Furthermore, it's quite easy to pick the wrong text options and shut down their background expositions. For example, when you convince Glory to finally tell you what happened when she was a kid, if you select any questions or judgmental comments, she shuts down and you can't continue. I think if this happens multiple times, the quest is shut off (but I'm not positive). With Eiger, it's somewhat similar when she's telling you what happened to her unit when they were going after the Russian pimp mafia. The key difference is that you must actively elicit their stories and quests, it isn't put in your face.

For all the companions, it's not just possible to ignore their personal stories but outright antagonize them and have them react with hostility towards you throughout the game. They don't bat their eyes and give you an easy fuck, so to me, so they don't seem very Biowarean.
Huh, really? That's very cool. I must have lucked out in picking all the right options every time (as I do in real life, see my vast harem), and it followed a somewhat predictable structure of returning to the Ebon Hawk base after every mission to ask for the latest installment of Tales From Harrow's Pimp Mansion/Zero Dark Eiger. That really does cast it in a different light - not railroading the player into every side story makes them a lot more tolerable.

That said, I did stop thinking of them as Bioware companions as the game went on; I'm more reporting my initial impressions upon going back to base. Between the death of a beloved mentor figure I met fifteen minutes earlier and each character initially fitting very well-trodden archetypes, my initial impressions of the characters perhaps weren't the most favourable ones. Suffice to say, I'm very glad to have been proven wrong!
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You can tell any of the companions you want to keep things professional, and they'll shut up about their sob stories.

I did it with Blitz. Mined all the other stories though.
 
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Admiral jimbob

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The only thing I got out of Blitz's entire dumb story was a grenade launcher I gave to Glory, which was decent until she decided to eat it between missions and it was never seen again. Pretty cool mission, though.
 

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