Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Incline Shadow Tactics - Blades of Shogun Commandos clone with ninjutsu theme.

Discussion in 'Strategy Gaming' started by Taka-Haradin puolipeikko, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. Make America Great Again Darth Roxorgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    I'd say it makes perfect sense and I lol'd when I saw it for the first time. Another thing concerning civilians that is handy but not mentioned anywhere is that you can knock them out and then hide them inside houses, after which they won't leave again.

    My biggest gripe for the moment is with Aiko. On a map like Kage-sama's camp, which doesn't have a disguise, she's basically reduced to a sneeze powder bot - all her other abilities are shared with Hayato and Yuki.

    I liek all this, especially the cross-viewing guards, makes the game harder to cheese. My fav part so far was probably Kanazawa City, and the straw hats on the walls - 4 groups of 2 straw hats in inconvenient places, not only watched on and off by a handful of dudes from below, but also every now and again visited by 2 samurai who check if they're still around. It was a very well set-up barrier.
     
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  2. Beowulfgender: ⚧ Savant

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    How do you kill non-lethaly?
     
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  3. rezafgender: ⚧ Savant

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    I specifically mentioned MoW because Soldiers: HoWW2 is basically it's direct predecessor, yet the game feels totally different and I pretty much hated it. Maybe I have strange tastes?

    However, I might very well be playing the wrong game as you say - but like I mentioned, I really enjoyed Shadow Tactics up until Level 7. Level 8 was the besieged castle, and I tried time and time again to "solve" the puzzle until I finally went with "fuck preventing alarms", caused half a dozen of them in quick succession, killing off some of the overlapping guards in the process. Only then did I get to the last part of the level and blew up the samurai general with some dynamite. The level took me almost 4 hours and I had a reload count of almost 200. Go figure. :oops:

    Edit: I'm currently having fun watching a few youtubers struggle with the same problems I struggled with. What caused me to tear my hair out when I was playing makes me chuckle when other players have to do it.
    In the last video, the player ended up killing a civilian after he had thwarted his brilliant plan by spotting him for the umpteenth time. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  4. adddeedgender: ⚧ Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    Try Faces of War. I liked the missions there better than Men of War.

    But yes, ST and its kin are as much puzzles games as they are tactical. Its part of the charm for me and others im sure.
     
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  6. Goralgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

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    You can always lower the difficulty. But I agree, first 5-6 missions are great but later ones tend to drag on.

    Edit:
    It would be great if I could choose who to bring on the missions. Not in all missions of course (because of the plot) but there are quite a few where choosing one or the other wouldn't mess things up that much but it would add to replay value. At least one additional character wouldn't hurt either, although I realize that coming up with some new abilities is very, very hard but it's very easy to create a useless character or an OP one. Or they could add a free mode where you could do any mission with a completely free choice who to bring (so even bringing everyone would be an option).
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  7. rezafgender: ⚧ Savant

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    What exactly changes when diffculty is lowered? Are there actually fewer enemies? I seem to recall reading reaction times are slower, but I'm not even sure where.

    In the bottom line, it's probably a good thing they sticked to the genre-roots, even though it makes me personally like the game a lot less. True fans of the genre wouldn't want it any other way, and I'm just a bystander, so to speak.
    It's like I hate how Civ5 and Civ6 have turned out when they opened up the series to a broader audience. So I think I'm just going to stop playing now and wish them commecial success.
     
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  8. Ludo Lensegender: ⚧ Arcane

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    My bad. I should have used quotation marks. Getting someone off the map is usually associated with killing :M
     
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    I can't imagine they redesigned enemy placement 3 times for every level. Reaction times are slower, you read that right. I think I saw something about view cones being a bit smaller as well.

    Seems to me you should try the level again on low difficulty before you quit altogether. Drives me crazy how some people would rather die than play a game on easy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  10. Goralgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

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    After finishing ST it's time to get back to this:
    It's Yuki's flute, Kuma is Mia's monkey. Also, pocketwatch had a cool countdown feature.
    Not exactly, dynamite can bounce off and has higher range. It also allows to knock out people, not only kill them. Although Takuma can change the mixture to knock out too (which is stupid, gunpowder and knock out gas are two entirely different things but whatever).
    I totally disagree. In Desperados playing lethal and non-lethal paths is entirely different and way harder than lethal path (mainly because of range and the rate of fire but also because they can be untied and because only Sam can tie them up and only JC can get to most remote places). Lethal path is easy (super easy if you go berserk), non lethal path is at least as hard as ST on hard (try to finish 13th Desperados mission without killing anyone for example). As for ST, for the most part non-lethal way is impossible. And when it is, it just makes the run tedious because you either have to find barrels or houses to hide them in (which is stupid, in Desperados they would wake up if they weren't tied up) or you need to carry them / have them on your shoulder (that way they don't wake up for some reason). You could use the KO bomb too but they're so scarce and Takuma most of the time can't reach the places where he could be useful.
    Well, I can somewhat agree with that, you can also use bodies as bait. But these cards can be helpful because they allow to split the team and not wait till Cooper or Sanchez would get to you just to lure someone (there are quite a few enemies which Kate can't seduce).
    As for the double up, it is a decoy but interesting decoy because they shoot at it and make noise which allows us to make noise for example. And no, insanity dart is not the only unique thing that's missing, there are also lockpicks (which makes runs harder because only Doc can open them and you need to smuggle him in), gatling guns, horses (which adds to your tactical options). Chickens/crows were also used here first and in crucial places which made some levels a bit more challenging. Oh, and you mentioned you like deaths that looked like accident. Well, in Desperados those are also in, e.g. in the 8th mission you can drop down a chandelier on two guys in Marshall's office.

    tl;dr
    Desperados > Shadow Tactics

    Edit:
    I forgot that Cooper also has his roll-dive-shoot-from-a-corner move and a triple shot move and he can also jumped out of window/balcony if there is a horse below.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  11. ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈgender: ⚧ Unwanted Queued Shitposter

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    tl;dr
    Oblivion > Aod

    :retarded:
     
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  12. Goralgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

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  13. anus_poundergender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Oblivion is an underrated classic, but yeah, that comparison makes no sense whatsoever.
     
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  14. Make America Great Again Darth Roxorgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    I like how this game has different quote sets for the characters depending on map/weather. I particularly liked how

    Show Spoiler

    Suddenly they all turn extra-bitter after Mugen commits sudoku. The sudden muting of the music was also a nice touch.
     
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  15. ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈgender: ⚧ Unwanted Queued Shitposter

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    Desperados is a gay Western larp.
    Shadow Tactics is a decent puzzle game, as it is supposed to be.
     
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  16. Goralgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

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    I've finished replaying Desperados (non-lethal style for 23 missions, I haven't even used dynamite this time which I thought would be impossible, almost no guns too, had to use bullets in level 19 and next ones to lure enemies, had to start using guns for killing in 24th mission though when facing Demonios behind curtains) and all I can say is that it's not nostalgia. It is BY FAR the best tactical game in history and Shadow Tactics pales in comparison. I also don't understand how could anyone be bothered by the interface, once you remember shortcut keys it becomes super easy. The buttons are smaller than the ones in ST but that's because it's a game from year 2001. Anyway, there were more varied opponents, some gradation of them which was both cool and logical (the closer you got to El Diablo the better men he had). In ST you see all the opponents during the first mission and use the same tricks over and over, especially when dealing with samurai which only Mugen can kill without problems (and Takuma with a bomb). In Desperados there were tougher opponents but you could gang up on them and defeat them that way, here you can do it one way only with the others.

    Anyway, the missions were also more varied (e.g. when you were forced to not kill anyone or when you had to play two factions against each other or when you robbed a bank) and MUCH more interesting. They're also shorter and I was never bored or tired, on the other hand ST levels are sometimes too big IMO. Also the plot was better and missions were more fluid/uninterrupted (there were no cuts, no timeskips). And cowboys > samurai (and I'm saying that as Gintama/Samurai Champloo fan).

    Oh, and in Desperados there was also a chance to use a cart in silver mines (besides chandelier) to kill opponents so "accidental deaths" was nothing new and I recommend replaying that game because it seems to me you're the ones who compare a game you don't remember too well.
    Regarding the weather, in Desperados you couldn't light dynamite and Kate couldn't use her mirror but in ST Takuma can use his bombs no problem. There was no chance to check whether Aiko's powder would work during rain though.
    That 6th character appears in 17th mission so 8 missions before the end and you can play as her in 5 missions which is almost 40% of the amount of missions in ST :P. Anyway, it is significant advantage when comparing the two titles, I wish I had another character to play with even for the last mission, it would always bring some freshness to the game. And when you were comparing these two games you said that insanity dart is the only unique thing that's missing which is far from the truth. Every character had some perks unique only to him/her. JC could instantly perform 3 shots, could climb, saddle horses or cut the saddles; Kate could sneak upon others, could light up gun powder with her mirror and act as a beautfiul spy. I won't bother listing the rest but suffice to say that contrary to ST every character in Desperados played differently and offered different tactical options making the missions much more varied if needed. In ST most characters had practically the same weapons and didn't differ that much, in Desperados, even discounting their special abilities/perks unique only to them they also had different guns with different advantages and disadvantages. In ST a blade's a blade and kills exactly the same whether it's a hairpin, a knife or a katana (and it's the only way to kill a samurai for the three characters, they can't gang up on him or use a shuriken). In Desperados range mattered much more.

    The good news in all this is that ST has lots of room for improvement. Desperados is a 10/10 game while ST is maybe 7 or 7.5/10 game (I love the detailed statistics, Desperados only had time count, Japanese dubbing is also great, as for vertical movement, it is a nice addition but the way levels were set up it was necessary to use them and not an optional skill so levels were more linear compared to Desperados ones, plus you could jump out of window/balcony if there was a horse) and here are ways to change that:

    • weather should be more impactful like in Desperados (e.g. Takuma's bombs shouldn't work during heavy rain, maybe they could work if you could get into a building and light it up)
    • enemies should be more varied and don't let us see everyone in the first level
    • vertical movement should be more optional adding a bit more non-linearity to the levels
    • characters should have more unique abilities even if it's not too realistic (e.g. only Cooper can saddle horses and only JC and Sanchez can carry bodies and only Doc can heal or awaken KOed allies by using smelling salts)
    • some more modes of transport would be appreciated (horses added much more tactical options than carts in ST)
    • ganging up on someone should be possible and selecting all or only the chosen ones should be possible (in Desperados we can do that by clicking while holding shift, selecting all is using A button as a default)
    • allow non-lethal way to finish all or almost all missions, as it is now it's impossible mainly because of samurais (often it's impossible to sneak past them)
    • add more varied missions and make them shorter instead, short tutorial missions to show new abilities of others would also be appreciated
    • nerf character like Aiko and balance them better
    • add range of an attack as a more significant factor, killing with a hairpin should be in point blank range only but with a katana the distance should be bigger (it was like that in Desperados, Sanchez with his whirlwind had higher range than Cooper with his fists)
    • for the next game change setting, wild west wouldn't be a bad idea ;P
    There are more things to add, that is how polished and great Desperados is. Hopefully ST will sell well and we'll see a much, much better sequel that will bring it closer to perfection (i.e. Desperados: Wanted Dead or Alive).
     
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  17. ᚱᚨᚷᛖᚠᚢᛈgender: ⚧ Unwanted Queued Shitposter

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    As is Oblivion.
     
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  18. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Great post Goral and I agree with pretty much everything. I do feel the urge to pick a few nits as I feel you're being somewhat unfair to ST.

    * A blade is not a blade in ST. Every character has a different kill animation time (and sound radius?), which sounds simple but makes a huge difference to tactics. If Hayato is over there distracting a Straw Hat with a rock, will slow-ass Yuki have enough time to kill the Guard while he's looking away? If I switch their positions so Hayato can kill the Guard quicker, will Yuki's flute draw too much attention? When you get down to it, every move in ST or Desperados boils down to "distract, relocate, kill" - it's perfectly okay to give every character a straightforward "kill" move as long as there are meaningful variations - and I think ST succeeded in that.

    * While more character-specific abilities like saddling horses and picking locks would certainly be welcome, carrying bodies is a bad example, as again in ST everyone has different mechanics for it. More than once I've had to use Hayato to quickly kill a guy, then bring in Yuki to move the body. Then of course there's Mugen who might be able to do Sword Wind and then get the bodies the hell out of there before a patrol comes back, which would be hard to do using the others. Sometimes a straight up "stab 'n' drag" will work with any character, but the farther I get in the game, the less viable this is. Again: simple theme, meaningful variations; it's more sophisticated than it looks.

    * Not a nitpick so much as a difference of opinion, but come on, this is the a perfect setting for a tactical stealth game in this format. You said yourself the VA is great; and despite (because of?) the clichés, the writing and particularly the characterizations are lovely. There's no reason I can see for them to change it, now that they've established a foundation for a series (I hope?) with this game.

    Honestly, they could set it on the moon for all I care, I'm just overjoyed to have good gameplay like this again.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2016
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  19. Make America Great Again Darth Roxorgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    And that's it for Shadow Tictacs.

    Awesome fucking game. Nothing more to say aboot it ;_;7
     
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    Probably my favourite bit of the entire game. Poor Yuki-chan.
     
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  22. adddeedgender: ⚧ Liturgist Possibly Retarded

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    Good voice acting and dialogue as well. Also for less than $4 you can buy the art pdf + game guide. Im downloading it now, no idea if I will read all of it but im getting it to support these guys. Hope to see a sequel.
     
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  23. Fairfaxgender: ⚧ Arcane

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    Amazing game overall. Not a single mission I didn't like a lot, except the performance going to shit in some areas (praise Unity).

    Yuki is best character, and Suganuma village best mission. +M

    EDIT:
    Small correction: I forgot about Kage-sama's camp, which I didn't like that much, but it's not bad.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
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  24. Goralgender: ⚧ Arcane Patron The Real Fanboy

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    I hated this mission, worst mission IMO. Mission 5 is my favourite.
     
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  25. Make America Great Again Darth Roxorgender: ⚧ Prestigious Gentleman Wielder of the Huegpenis, Hater of Eternity

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    Agreed, I think that one and Kage-sama's Camp were the only two ones I didn't like.

    My fav probably remains Kanazawa Castle. I also liked Nakasendo Road and the last mission a real lot - the last one was legit fukken 'ard at a few points.

    Suganuma Village only gets points for grimdarkness and wanton slaughter of civilians, which also leads me to my next point - this game is really fucking grimdark at times. Wanton slaughter of civilians, multiple committing of sudoku, killing of all sorts of royal sons. Good stuff.
     
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