Game News Seven Dragon Saga Kickstarter Update #13: Campaign cancelled

[Infinitron]

Tags: David Klein; Seven Dragon Saga; Tactical Simulations Interactive

13 days after its underwhelming launch, TSI have thrown in the towel on the Seven Dragon Saga Kickstarter campaign. In the final Kickstarter update, company president David Klein reaffirmed that the game is not cancelled, and that another Kickstarter campaign is planned. I quote:

Over $100,000, and nearly 2,000 backers achieved and a new direction, discovered.

We’re postponing our Kickstarter campaign. No, TSI is NOT giving up on Seven Dragon Saga! Quite the contrary. We’ve done some serious reflection and come to the conclusion that we can’t create the level of RPG today that we know we’ll be able to create tomorrow.

Given its heritage, SDS needs to set a new standard for the RPG genre. Not a ‘style over substance’ AAA standard. A standard that delivers a fresh, compelling and truly satisfying RPG experience. SDS deserves no less. And that goes for you too, our wonderful, loyal supporters.

We launched this campaign at "veteran difficulty" (what some call "a high funding goal") because wanted to be sure that we would do SDS justice. We knew there would be a lot of you that remembered the classics or would appreciate our efforts to build a fresh RPG, but we underestimated how much new content we'd need to show in the middle of the campaign to engage people that were less familiar with the older games.

We'd thought we could talk about core mechanics when it is clear that you want to actually see those mechanics in action. We need to show off more than we had ready right now. There came a point where it became more tell than show.

We've had incredibly positive results from this Kickstarter. The press awareness, fan response, and community feedback has been tremendous. We're taking that feedback and what we've learned to refine our work further. We'll be coming back as soon as humanly possible, with a better, more refined Kickstarter, and some code you'll actually be able to play, along with killer videos and artwork.

Once again, we are extremely grateful for all of your encouragement and support. We will continue to follow our progress by signing up for our newsletter on our website: http://www.tsi-games.com/ and by following us on social media. This way, you can hear about our Kickstarter re-launch when it happens. And it WILL happen!
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Hmmm, okay. I still say one of you should create an account on the Codex, though. We can show you the way.

 

[J_C]

TL;DR - buzzwords buzzwords....We still have no idea what shall we do with this campaign....thank you..buzzwords

 

[Musaab]

I just hope I get another chance at the Shroud of the Avatar cloak.

 

[CyberWhale]

Rejoice and divert all of your pledges to the Dungeons of Aledorn campaign!

 

[Kem0sabe]

TL;DR - buzzwords buzzwords....We still have no idea what shall we do with this campaign....thank you..buzzwords

Exactly, these guys have no clue how to develop a game to the sensibilities of the KS crowd, they are still stuck in the publisher development cycle mentality.

 

[JarlFrank]

I hope they hire someone who knows how to make a KS pitch.

 

[Shannow]

To be fair, a lot in today's world is over appearance over substance.
I could go all GD and present dozens of instances - especially in politics - that can only be understood if one keeps in mind that the protagonists are trying to keep up the appearance of always being right. For some reason admitting to (serious) mistakes and learning from them is frowned upon. Perhaps even career-ending.
This goes just as much for marketing. And KS campaigns are marketing.
So I hope, despite the "bla, bla", they did learn something and do an overall better campaign next time.
I seriously doubt that just showing some more vids and concept art alone will cut it. The whole presentation and campaign strategy needs to change. The codex has already given lots of advice to that effect, so no point in repeating it all. But next time:

• Be psyched in your videos. If you're not hyped, why should we be?
• Play far more on what you did in the 90s and what you're trying to do now.
  
• Be proud of your past achievements and make us believe that the game you are planning now will also be something to take pride in.
• Let whoever of you has the most people-skills do most of the talking. Pretend the video is a bad RPG.
• Taking the piss out on publishers who don't want to finance your pitches is usually also a good idea. It makes the backers feel powerful, sticking it to the Man and being part of something larger. (Obviously one shouldn't over-do this.)
  
• Make the campaign far more information-front-loaded. You can give concept art, music, dev-diaries, etc. in updates, but be aware who you are plying your wares to. We are nerds just like you. If the mechanics are already decided upon, we want to know about them. Don't treat us in ways that you wouldn't want to be treated yourselves.
• Involve the backers. There are probably things you have not fully fleshed out or where you have several alternatives and are not certain of how to move forward. Or things where you know that you'll not be able to implement everything. If not, then simply make stuff up. It doesn't have to be important stuff. And then ask your backers what they favour. Obviously this should be later in the campaign.

 

[Saber-Scorpion]

I backed it just a few hours before it was cancelled. I guess I killed it. I'll be back for the re-launch though.

 

[m_s0]

We launched this campaign at "veteran difficulty" (what some call "a high funding goal") because wanted to be sure that we would do SDS justice.

Obviously they're going to set the goal lower if they do another campaign, but the bolded part worries me a bit. 450k may be a lot of money for most people, but unless you're 3 guys working out of your basements it's not nearly enough to make a decent, complex, not to mention long game.

The issue lies with the pitch and the lack of pandering (I guess they've tried that, but they didn't do it well) to the Kickstarter crowd, not necessarily with the goal.

 

[STOMP MY BALLS $5]

i Donated at least $100 of "stompings" to this campaign ...... that`s a shame!! Hopefully this isn`t really the "end of the road" for SDs .... wel`l see where they go from here ... with "bated" breath! Haha!!

 

[Servo]

450k may be a lot of money for most people, but unless you're 3 guys working out of your basements it's not nearly enough to make a decent, complex, not to mention long game.

Are you fucking kidding me? 450k would fund at least 6-7 guys, 9-10 if they were really desperate trolol

 

[Jaesun]

Looking forward to the 2nd Kickstarter. I want to play this game. <3

 

[Daemongar]

450k may be a lot of money for most people, but unless you're 3 guys working out of your basements it's not nearly enough to make a decent, complex, not to mention long game.

Are you fucking kidding me? 450k would fund at least 6-7 guys, 9-10 if they were really desperate trolol

Location: 1988

 

[Craig Stern]

Yeah, $450k is actually not an unreasonable amount to ask for given the circumstances. They have a 6-person team; that's $75,000 per person without taking into account Kickstarter's cut (probably between $25,000 and $50,000), the tax man's cut (probably upwards of $50,000) or outside expenses (which there almost certainly will be). That basically gives them two years to develop the game in its entirety and release it, which is a fairly tight schedule for developing a big open world RPG.

I think they're right, though--they needed to show more and talk less in their pitch video. I liked the ideas they posted in their updates, and I look forward to seeing them implemented in a prototype that's more pre-alpha and less mock-up.

 

[MRY]

I don't think it was a "show don't tell problem" -- at least, not in the way that they think. In the critical first phase, they told very little, and they showed actual gameplay, something that was not true of many successful nostalgia Kickstarters. What they didnt "show" (and didn't tell, either) was the game's connection to the games whose memory they're invoking. You don't need gameplay videos for that. You can show that through talking head interviews with passionate developers, concept art, mockups, text descriptions (such as those they started having later in the campaign).

To me, what they need to do is figure out what it means to be a "spiritual successor" to the Gold Box games, and shape SDS around that. If they don't want to make a spiritual successor, then they probably do need a demo and more progress because candidly, I don't know why people would give $450k to a bunch of people who haven't made any good games recently but are aspiring to create something "modern" and "fresh" that looks worn out and bland. I believe they can make a great spiritual successor to the Gold Box games; I am completely agnostic as to whether they can make anything else.

[EDIT: By the way, will someone please give Craig Stern a "Developer" tag?! Guy has more games under his belt than I do. Success!]

 

[nikolokolus]

With all of the highly successful campaigns that came before them and showed them "This is how you run a campaign." Whether it be Obsidian, InXile, or what have you, there's just no excuse for how badly they bungled this thing.

If they are after the Gold Box, nostalgia, old-fag crowd then pander to them; pitch an isometric sprite based game with funky pseudo 8-bit graphics and first-person exploration. If they want to emphasize how innovative they are, then show don't tell why your new ideas are so awesome and for god's sake don't emphasize SSI's glory years, because I have a feeling the name SSI has almost no cachet outside of old-fart nerds in their late-thirties to mid-forties.

 

[Daemongar]

Yeah, $450k is actually not an unreasonable amount to ask for given the circumstances. They have a 6-person team; that's $75,000 per person without taking into account Kickstarter's cut (probably between $25,000 and $50,000), the tax man's cut (probably upwards of $50,000) or outside expenses (which there almost certainly will be). That basically gives them two years to develop the game in its entirety and release it, which is a fairly tight schedule for developing a big open world RPG.

No it isn't, 450k would get you 5 guys making $60k a year, plus 30% or so of their salaries in benefits (ie: health insurance, etc.) But 60k, doesn't even get an entry level programmer in the US.

Looking at the 2015 IT Salary Guide sitting next to me, the average salary for a software developer is $85,500 - 127,250. Again, factor in the 30% in benefits, you'd be hard pressed to support 3 programmers at 450k. Let alone paying yourself, or for internet, computers, licensing, Kickstarters cut, artists, musicians, PC-Magazines cut, Doritos, Mt. Dew, electricity, and an office.

You can get 6 guys from India, 6 college students desperate for a project, or two managers, two programmers, and office space for a year for that kind of money.

 

[karnak]

Rejoice and divert all of your pledges to the Dungeons of Aledorn campaign!

 

[Tigranes]

That was such an incoherent statement, one which suggests they learned wrong lessons about why they failed. One hopes it was just PR waffle.

 

[roshan]

The kickstarter pitch video really just sucked, bunch of guys being flat, unenthusiastic and awkward... Plus a shitty video of boring combat with generic and ugly 3D graphics.... I really don't understand why these guys didn't go with 2D isometric. Plus what they were pitching kind of really sucked too. I mean, generic but also somehow incoherent setting, AWSUM heroes, cliche order versus chaos crap....

Look at the fantastic trailers for Serpent in the Staglands. Or look at the Torment TON kickstarter which featured tons of interesting lore and all the concepts behind the game. I really don't understand how these guys not only came up with a clusterfuck of a pitch video, but also a crappy setting and concept for the game (they could have gone 2D, pixel art, retro, done something stylized like Banner Saga... but what they showed looked totally lacking in any sort of creativity or higher direction).

Not only that but they have failed to understand the kickstarter crowd. I'm guessing people who back kickstarters value open and honest communication, or at the least something that rings true and enthusiastic. But instead these guys are putting out updates with generic bullshit corporate marketing speak, even in their cancellation announcement.

Dunno, I'm thinking these guys are just ridiculously inept.

 

[nikolokolus]

Inept at marketing for sure. As for games, I think they might have made something fun.

 

[roshan]

Inept at marketing for sure. As for games, I think they might have made something fun.

Inept is actually an understatement. Compare what they came up with to the following games:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1446315704/lords-of-xulima-an-epic-story-of-gods-and-humans
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skyshinegames/bedlam
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649838104/serpent-in-the-staglands
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bischoff/stasis-2d-isometric-scifi-horror-adventure-game
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios

There's art direction, unique ideas but a respect for the old school, enthusiasm, a clear and honest concept (no bullshit marketing speak), an idea about how to go about creating what they want to.

I'm actually really surprised that SDS managed to raise that 100K with such a weak concept and pitch.

 

[Servo]

benefits (ie: health insurance, etc.)

Oh yeah forgot about 'dose.

Rejoice and divert all of your pledges to the Dungeons of Aledorn campaign!

Aaaaaand done.

 

[Craig Stern]

450k would get you 5 guys making $60k a year, plus 30% or so of their salaries in benefits (ie: health insurance, etc.) But 60k, doesn't even get an entry level programmer in the US.

Right; I'm assuming that their existing 6-person team is on board for any sort of liveable wage. $30k a year isn't great, but you won't starve to death on it (unless you live in San Francisco or New York City or something).

In the critical first phase, they told very little, and they showed actual gameplay

Well yes, but the gameplay elements they showed were super basic, and IMO didn't really demonstrate most of the mechanics that they intended to put into the game. It came across (to me, anyway) as more of a mock-up than a proper working build. Beyond that, though, I 100% agree that they needed to talk more about the things that made the Gold Box games awesome, then talk about how they were planning to implement them in SDS. That definitely would've helped as well!

 

[Athelas]

Not only that but they have failed to understand the kickstarter crowd. I'm guessing people who back kickstarters value open and honest communication

Not really, they just want something shiny to throw money at. Which this Kickstarter failed to show.

With all of the highly successful campaigns that came before them and showed them "This is how you run a campaign." Whether it be Obsidian, InXile, or what have you, there's just no excuse for how badly they bungled this thing.

What would they have to learn from them? Obsidian and InXile got funded largely because of brand recognition, their KS campaigns weren't really much to write home about. These guys obviously don't have the luxury of being funded solely by name/association.