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KickStarter Serpent in the Staglands Thread

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,849
How stable and bug-free is the game currently? I've been holding off playing it until it's more stable.

I found it stable, but definitely not bug-free. The most annoying bug is that equipped ammo frequently disappears, although that could be fixed by not making or recruiting any archers.

That sounds pretty gamebreaking if you ask me, why is it not fixed yet? Other developers would receive a shitstorm here for stuff like that.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,879
Whalenought_Joe , when the expansion is out, does it automatically make the base game 3d? I really want to be able to replay the original campaign in 2D a few times before going to the expansion. I like 2D better.

If not, that's cool, but it'd be cool to know. That way I'll buy a GoG version to keep my 2D intact or something. Sorry for all the weird questions, but this game really pulled on my nostalgia strings pretty damn hard and I'd like to keep it that way.

You won't have a problem with the 3D in the expansion, that's for sure. It looks, runs and plays exactly like you would expect a 2D isometric game with a Z axis to. It's really a best of both worlds scenario, as implausible as that might sound. You have the controls and perspective of a 2D camera, but you have Z axis gameplay like jumping off buildings, climbing up on objects and using grappling hooks, which AFAIK no top down or isometric 3D RPG thus far has implemented.
How do you know this?
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
How stable and bug-free is the game currently? I've been holding off playing it until it's more stable.

I found it stable, but definitely not bug-free. The most annoying bug is that equipped ammo frequently disappears, although that could be fixed by not making or recruiting any archers.

That sounds pretty gamebreaking if you ask me, why is it not fixed yet? Other developers would receive a shitstorm here for stuff like that.

I wish I could tell you; SitS was one of my least favourite games of last year, and I don't understand the positive reaction in this thread at all. I'm sure the official Codex review will bring us all clarity.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,226
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Whalenought_Joe , when the expansion is out, does it automatically make the base game 3d? I really want to be able to replay the original campaign in 2D a few times before going to the expansion. I like 2D better.

If not, that's cool, but it'd be cool to know. That way I'll buy a GoG version to keep my 2D intact or something. Sorry for all the weird questions, but this game really pulled on my nostalgia strings pretty damn hard and I'd like to keep it that way.

You won't have a problem with the 3D in the expansion, that's for sure. It looks, runs and plays exactly like you would expect a 2D isometric game with a Z axis to. It's really a best of both worlds scenario, as implausible as that might sound. You have the controls and perspective of a 2D camera, but you have Z axis gameplay like jumping off buildings, climbing up on objects and using grappling hooks, which AFAIK no top down or isometric 3D RPG thus far has implemented.
How do you know this?

He's a member of the sooper sekret Whalenought Studios focus group, along with Sensuki, mindx2, agris and probably others. But you should know about that.
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
672
I just completed the game and will start working on my review this weekend. I hope to finish it within the first week of May, and then have it posted 2 or 3 weeks later, after some editing and suggestions from the staff.

I beat the game when my party was about level 11, and I never created my own companions, nor did I ever control their minds. I tried peaceful means of handling situations, but normally dialogue encounters would eventually lead to violence. Sometimes there were bugs that caused NPCs near me to go hostile when I was fighting monsters near them, forcing me to kill the civilians. There is also a point or two in the game where you try to help folks and do the right thing only to find out you committed horrible crimes. I actually chose to walk away from one of the final bad guys instead of killing her once she and I were done talking. However, to solve many of the quests, you eventually are railroaded to resort to violence. So I take the ending a little personally when at the final scene someone condemns you as a horrible, horrible person and the game ends as abruptly as it does.

Honestly, the ending confrontation did not feel appropriate to me. Too modern, causing it to clash with the rest of the setting that was more in the style of older cultures and belief systems. Rather than being an effective conversation, it took me out of the experience because the arguments used were ideas that did not fit the time and place in which they were used. A 'does Zeus pay alimony,' if you will. That's typical for most stories set in such a setting, but it still disappointed me as I had hopes for more of a "King of Dragon Pass" treatment.
 

sstacks

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
1,151
One thing to point out on the "you're a horrible person" lecture mentioned above... it's revealed at a certain point in the game (and hinted at during the beginning exposition) that your actions led to some pretty tragic stuff. So even if you play the game "nice", you still have stuff in your past.
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
One thing to point out on the "you're a horrible person" lecture mentioned above... it's revealed at a certain point in the game (and hinted at during the beginning exposition) that your actions led to some pretty tragic stuff. So even if you play the game "nice", you still have stuff in your past.

The criteria for playing the game "nice" feel more like "gotcha" moments than anything else though. IIRC you trigger the bad ending by filling the bounties on dangerous bandits, for example.
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
IIRC you trigger the bad ending by filling the bounties on dangerous bandits, for example.
What the heck is even the justification for this? Were they the only thing stopping the local government from going full 1984?
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
7,817
IIRC you trigger the bad ending by filling the bounties on dangerous bandits, for example.
What the heck is even the justification for this? Were they the only thing stopping the local government from going full 1984?

The guy argues that they were driven to banditry by the threat of starvation, so you're punishing them for trying to survive.
 

V_K

Arcane
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Nov 3, 2013
Messages
7,714
Location
at a Nowhere near you

Whalenought_Joe

Whalenought Studios
Developer
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
215
Location
Nosgoth
He's a member of the sooper sekret Whalenought Studios focus group

The great eye sees all

IIRC you trigger the bad ending by filling the bounties on dangerous bandits, for example.

There were a just few triggers for the bad ending, but they involve things like killing your children or murdering towns.

A 'does Zeus pay alimony,' if you will

That's fair, this was a difficult ending to convey with the hands-off narrative approach. Since Octavian was interested in using the moon lord for some violent political leverage, his POV in that dialogue was supposed to be skewed to how he means to justify that, not to act as an actual reliable narrator for the events.

The moon lord's game was unfortuantely rigged from the start, while the player's adventure is figuring out what happened and what happens next, there was never supposed to be a narrative for some sort of redemption, the whole thing did start as an accident. He just wanted to sleep with forest creatures.
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
672
One thing to point out on the "you're a horrible person" lecture mentioned above... it's revealed at a certain point in the game (and hinted at during the beginning exposition) that your actions led to some pretty tragic stuff. So even if you play the game "nice", you still have stuff in your past.

Not to get too much into mythology, but that's a modern perspective on morality squished into a setting that tries to closely resemble older cultures, which is precisely what makes it jarring. It presumes an equality between mortals and gods on multiple levels that is incompatible with the cultures in question. To simplify, you don't talk shit to Poseidon because he sank a ship with your dad on it and it won't end well for you if you do. It's a portrayal that is endemic to the genre, but I had been hopeful that this game would get it right, hence the disappointment.

That's fair, this was a difficult ending to convey with the hands-off narrative approach. Since Octavian was interested in using the moon lord for some violent political leverage, his POV in that dialogue was supposed to be skewed to how he means to justify that, not to act as an actual reliable narrator for the events.

The moon lord's game was unfortuantely rigged from the start, while the player's adventure is figuring out what happened and what happens next, there was never supposed to be a narrative for some sort of redemption, the whole thing did start as an accident. He just wanted to sleep with forest creatures.

That's the thing though. The very thought of calling out the Moon Lord as a murderer or blaming him for what happened to their mother is incompatible with the corresponding cultures as gods aren't persons in the same sense that mortals are. What a god does is, in a way, a necessity, not just to them but to the world as it is. It's why redemption is something meant for mortals, not for gods, as there is nothing in such a case for the god to be redeemed of. It's like suing a drought for destroying your crops. In those stories, Octavian would have been severely punished for his sass and irreverence, possibly even killed (his behavior embraces his mortality rather than his divinity, hence why a mortal appropriate punishment becomes an option).
 
Self-Ejected

Bubbles

I'm forever blowing
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Messages
7,817
IIRC you trigger the bad ending by filling the bounties on dangerous bandits, for example.

There were a just few triggers for the bad ending, but they involve things like killing your children or murdering towns.

Is the stuff about bandits just flavour that gets mentioned no matter what you do, or it is actually reactive to your actions (even though it does not affect the ending)?
 

Filthy Sauce

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
613
I was thinking of loading this up again. Do I miss anything if I just create my own party? Am I required to take anyone.
 

hilfazer

Scholar
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
224
Possible trigger for bad ending:
Fighting people in the arena. Game tells you something like this "but remember, those people have families in this city". I think the game is trying to warn you.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
One thing to point out on the "you're a horrible person" lecture mentioned above... it's revealed at a certain point in the game (and hinted at during the beginning exposition) that your actions led to some pretty tragic stuff. So even if you play the game "nice", you still have stuff in your past.

Not to get too much into mythology, but that's a modern perspective on morality squished into a setting that tries to closely resemble older cultures, which is precisely what makes it jarring. It presumes an equality between mortals and gods on multiple levels that is incompatible with the cultures in question. To simplify, you don't talk shit to Poseidon because he sank a ship with your dad on it and it won't end well for you if you do. It's a portrayal that is endemic to the genre, but I had been hopeful that this game would get it right, hence the disappointment.

That's fair, this was a difficult ending to convey with the hands-off narrative approach. Since Octavian was interested in using the moon lord for some violent political leverage, his POV in that dialogue was supposed to be skewed to how he means to justify that, not to act as an actual reliable narrator for the events.

The moon lord's game was unfortuantely rigged from the start, while the player's adventure is figuring out what happened and what happens next, there was never supposed to be a narrative for some sort of redemption, the whole thing did start as an accident. He just wanted to sleep with forest creatures.

That's the thing though. The very thought of calling out the Moon Lord as a murderer or blaming him for what happened to their mother is incompatible with the corresponding cultures as gods aren't persons in the same sense that mortals are. What a god does is, in a way, a necessity, not just to them but to the world as it is. It's why redemption is something meant for mortals, not for gods, as there is nothing in such a case for the god to be redeemed of. It's like suing a drought for destroying your crops. In those stories, Octavian would have been severely punished for his sass and irreverence, possibly even killed (his behavior embraces his mortality rather than his divinity, hence why a mortal appropriate punishment becomes an option).
In what stories?
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
672
In what stories?
I'm not referencing a specific myth, if that's what you mean? More speaking generally on a common way in which deities from old religions tend to be misinterpreted, as the details vary per culture.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
In what stories?
I'm not referencing a specific myth, if that's what you mean? More speaking generally on a common way in which deities from old religions tend to be misinterpreted, as the details vary per culture.
I suspect not. I have an objection and I'm not sure how to formulate it here, although you might be able to convince me I'm wrong if I can understand your reasoning. Just respond to this or a question like it (I think you'll understand my objection): "You do know this isn't a story about Zeus, right?"
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
672
I suspect not. I have an objection and I'm not sure how to formulate it here, although you might be able to convince me I'm wrong if I can understand your reasoning. Just respond to this or a question like it (I think you'll understand my objection): "You do know this isn't a story about Zeus, right?"
I believe I understand, so I'll try to explain: I used Zeus and Poseidon as examples because people are familiar with them while also frequently misinterpreting them (in regards to how they'd had been viewed in their proper time-frame) as what are essentially powerful mortals. It is this perception that is part of what leads to the aforementioned misplaced attitudes. The misunderstanding itself is then not exclusive to the way the Greeks are viewed but is how the non-Christian older faiths are interpreted in general, which is why I'm referencing Zeus despite the Moon Lord not being intended as a Zeus surrogate (there's an argument to be made for there being a sufficient number of similarities, but it's not important here) - it's a general problem, not a specific one.
Now the exact way in which this perception clashes with all these different cultures varies, but that would require going into much, much greater detail and isn't essential to the overall point, though it would be a relevant nuance if the portrayal itself was accurate but happened to be of the wrong culture, but that's not the case.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

Self-Ejected
Village Idiot
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Nov 3, 2014
Messages
7,407
I wish I could tell you; SitS was one of my least favourite games of last year, and I don't understand the positive reaction in this thread at all. I'm sure the official Codex review will bring us all clarity.

Reading your Fallout 4 review I was with you with virtually every word, a person of similar tastes it seems. However... this point is now completely at odds with my taste in cRPG gaming, the polar opposite. Serpents in the Staglands was the cRPG which stood out to me as not only the best cRPG of last year, but the best for a number of years.

Yes, it's not perfect. I could list quite a few nitpicks. In fact, I could list probably dozens of nitpicks. But none of the nitpicks are of such a great determent to the whole that I could class it as a bad game, not even a medicore game, but as a great game with lots of little nitpicks.

I fear for Duece Traveller's review, as he complains that he doesn't know why citizens agro during battles when the answer is obvious to any 'serious' cRPG gamer, the Flasks do AoE damage... and I suspect it'll be little things like this which will make me rather facepalmy while reading the end result - especially as he didn't do all the puzzles in the puzzle section, one of the best and most atmospheric areas of the game.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I suspect not. I have an objection and I'm not sure how to formulate it here, although you might be able to convince me I'm wrong if I can understand your reasoning. Just respond to this or a question like it (I think you'll understand my objection): "You do know this isn't a story about Zeus, right?"
I believe I understand, so I'll try to explain: I used Zeus and Poseidon as examples because people are familiar with them while also frequently misinterpreting them (in regards to how they'd had been viewed in their proper time-frame) as what are essentially powerful mortals. It is this perception that is part of what leads to the aforementioned misplaced attitudes. The misunderstanding itself is then not exclusive to the way the Greeks are viewed but is how the non-Christian older faiths are interpreted in general, which is why I'm referencing Zeus despite the Moon Lord not being intended as a Zeus surrogate (there's an argument to be made for there being a sufficient number of similarities, but it's not important here) - it's a general problem, not a specific one.
Now the exact way in which this perception clashes with all these different cultures varies, but that would require going into much, much greater detail and isn't essential to the overall point, though it would be a relevant nuance if the portrayal itself was accurate but happened to be of the wrong culture, but that's not the case.
Well, I thought of Zeus when I played it and found out more-or-less what the central problem was
when you go to the city under siege
and I guess my question is less about Zeus than it is about borrowing storytelling elements. Is your objection to the central dilemma that, "The old cultures wouldn't have need of that theme?"
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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Yes, the ending is a shitty let-down, luckily that's only a small, nay miniscule fraction of the game. The ending nonsense is one thing thats worth knocking a whole point/trollface of it's final score IMO. Maybe someone can mod-in a better ending one day.
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
672
Well, I thought of Zeus when I played it and found out more-or-less what the central problem was
when you go to the city under siege
and I guess my question is less about Zeus than it is about borrowing storytelling elements. Is your objection to the central dilemma that, "The old cultures wouldn't have need of that theme?"

My objection to it is that it is out of character for a person from said cultures to even consider trying to use those arguments to try and lecture a deity. It's the cultural equivalent of pulling a gun on Caesar; the thought wouldn't even occur to you because it's a concept that is incompatible with the time period that you live in.
It's a conversation between powerful mortals that reflects modern ideas regarding equality, justice, responsibility, and so on, while I was hoping for something closer to the source material.

Yes, the ending is a shitty let-down, luckily that's only a small, nay miniscule fraction of the game. The ending nonsense is one thing thats worth knocking a whole point/trollface of it's final score IMO. Maybe someone can mod-in a better ending one day.

I agree that it's not a big deal, merely something that disappointed me because I had higher expectations. It's a minor blemish on what is overall a great game, irrespective of it being made by a team consisting of only two people.
 

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