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What a load of horseshit.

The fourth edition of D&D is to D&D what Prisoner of Ice is to Shadow of the Comet.

:rpgcodex:
 

DraQ

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Vaarna_Aarne said:
sgc_meltdown said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
Actually, I understand there are several Prime Material planes and Planescape is a setting that covers the other planes in more detail.

planescape multiverse.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UKQwe.jpg (high res)

new 4E planescape.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/31n1o.jpg

as you can see there is always room for innovative improvements to d&d settings to better meet the expectations of modern roleplayers
:rage:

This.

And I don't even care much about D&D to begin with.

:x
 

Storyfag

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DraQ said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
sgc_meltdown said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
Actually, I understand there are several Prime Material planes and Planescape is a setting that covers the other planes in more detail.

planescape multiverse.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UKQwe.jpg (high res)

new 4E planescape.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/31n1o.jpg

as you can see there is always room for innovative improvements to d&d settings to better meet the expectations of modern roleplayers
:rage:

This.

And I don't even care much about D&D to begin with.

:x

Doubly this. Pure :decline:
 

commie

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DraQ said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
sgc_meltdown said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
Actually, I understand there are several Prime Material planes and Planescape is a setting that covers the other planes in more detail.

planescape multiverse.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UKQwe.jpg (high res)

new 4E planescape.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/31n1o.jpg

as you can see there is always room for innovative improvements to d&d settings to better meet the expectations of modern roleplayers
:rage:

This.

And I don't even care much about D&D to begin with.

:x

Sooooo one fictional, arbitrary clusterfuck of a setting is changed and retconned and altered yet again and people keep raging? It's been changed in every revision of the rules and even before particularly during the early years when settings were coming and going, were being modified from one campaign book to another. Just take a look at the 'old' map and tell me that it makes any sense or that anyone actually bothers to make RPG's based on any more than maybe 1% of this setting. Shit, even the ubiquitous FR seems to be stuck using the Sword Coast for 90% of it's RPG settings! Had there been a plethora of RPG's set in the Demi Planes, Outlands, Arcadia, Mechanus, Baator, Grey Waste, Pandemonium etc. instead of one game in Sigil, a handful on Krynn, a few on Oerth, two on Athas and almost every other on Toril then I could understand the rage, but getting rid of settings that are never used or referenced? It's not like they are gone for good anyway as WOTC can just bring them back when needed.Shit, they even have it in the lore with the 'the planes keep changing, appearing and disappearing' get out of jail card to justify arbitrary changes to the setting!

Real rage would be if they make the Sword Coast into a snow covered island or volcanic wasteland inhabited by demons or something. That would be a tangible effect on an established setting and would deserve vilification, but fucking up some cosmology that is referenced as an aside by some NPC?
 

Phelot

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I think people are upset from the P&P standpoint, not the dumb cRPGs it spawned.

I was pretty annoyed when the Faction War ended and the Mercykillers split. That shit was gay.

What they should be doing is expanding on existing locations that, up until now, have only been a name or some barren white space in the map. On Toril, you have miles upon miles between the big event cities with presumably nothing in between except "Ye Olden Haunted Marsh" well go ahead and show us what's in that haunted marsh! There are literally hundreds of locations they could be exploring.
 

racofer

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Escapist boards : round 3!

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.174989-Mass-Effect-2-is-a-disappointment

The OP on that thread thoroughly describes what's wrong with ME2. What's the reaction? Read on:

I disagree with you. I think you're knitpicking too much, and you didn't so much write a review as write a criticism. A review is meant to be non-biased, while this was just pointing out the flaws.
And a lot of the things you didn't like, I did like.

Pointing out the flaws is bad, mkay?

OK lets go through this point-by-point

Ok.

1."The roleplaying is nill". I really dont know how you got to this one. Of course there are some examples just like you gave, but in the game at large your desicions carry over and influence later actions, which is done far better than in any other r.p.g i've seen.

This is the key to understanding the shit games are in these days.

2. "The combat sucks". Dude WTF. Your critiscising the gameplay for being a pointless time-filler between plot points. Yes it is. Just like it is in EVERY SINGLE GAME.

What the hell has this guy been playing?!?

3. "The probing". Yes, I think most people agree this is not best used, but it can hardly be called grinding because it isn't mandatory, thus defeating the cruz of your entire argument.

:retarded:

4."Poor Dialogue." I suppose this is largely a matter of opinion, but I found this to be one of the best written games I've ever played.

I see... it must be the new Bioware's target audience. HE'S A COD PLAYER!

In any case, it seems like your just pointing out the flaws rather than even trying to be balanced, and many of the critiscisms you level can be applied to many other games far more aptly.

We can't say too many bad things about a game, there's gotta be balance. :M

Wait, there's more:

Mass Effect is a terrible example of a traditional RPG.
But!
Mass Effect is a phenomenal example of a modern RPG.

If you're looking for Dungeons and Dragons in space, which it seems you are since you're complaining about stats and looting...... you'll be disappointed. Mass Effect isn't about either of those things.

Traditional RPGs = D&D. Nothing else existed.

Mass Effect is about a huge, over-arcing story (ME1, ME2, ME3), using cinematic storytelling, interesting characters, and interesting worlds.

I wonder where I can find those things, because when I played (and replayed) those games, there was none of it.

Everything is designed to keep the game moving, not have you on pause in the middle of a 'space dungeon' while you try and figure out which gun is better against 'space orcs', and which armor will off you the best balanced protection. Those things have their place, and it's not in Mass Effect.

I wonder what the space bar (and I don't fucking know what xbawk button it is) are then, since they pause the game for you to cast spells biotic abilities and switch to another weapon that does more damage to space orcs krogans at the small dungeons open areas of game.

You want inventory management, huge dialog trees, and stats?

Sure. When it's done properly, it's great fun.

Go play Dragon Age (Another awesome RPG from Bioware).

:/

You complain about the dialog choices giving you the same options no matter what you choose, but you're really missing the point, there. Unlike, say, Dragon Age, where you have to go through page after page of dialog trees to get people to say what you need to know, Mass Effect's dialog is going from A, to B. Everyone starts at A, and nearly everyone ends at B. But it's how you get there that's the difference. Dialog is half about information for your 'quest' or 'mission', and half about you characterizing who your Commander Shepard is! The dialog is just like the game: Everyone's Commander Shepard is out to save the galaxy. Everyone in ME1 is going to kill Sovereign, regardless of how you played the game. BUT, the focus isn't on A or B, it's on how you, less as a player and more as a character, did it. Were you ruthless? Kind? In between?

WHAT DOES IT FUCKING MATTER IF I'M RUTHLESS IF IT CHANGES MOTHERFUCKING NOTHING YOU DUMB ASS PIECE OF SHIT!

:x

Mass Effect is the epitome of awesome protagonist characterization.
And if you're going to complain about looting, simplistic dialog trees, sub-par combat, and a poor story, then you obviously just don't 'get' Mass Effect. You're missing the point on so many levels, simply because it seems you're looking for a traditional RPG.
Well, like I said, go play Dragon Age.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

:rage:

ME2 is everything Deus Ex: Invisible War should have been, but wasn't. Also it totally kicks the ass of any other story telling I've seen in gaming recently :P

Game is a masterpiece. You're all insane.

14d0kk3.jpg
 
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2. "The combat sucks". Dude WTF. Your critiscising the gameplay for being a pointless time-filler between plot points. Yes it is. Just like it is in EVERY SINGLE GAME.

That's...pretty sad. I can't even get mad at this guy. It's like a battered husband trying to teach his kid about love, but all he knows about it is based on his marriage with Ms. Emasculating Landwhale.

I can see it now. He's sighing and yawning while he jumps around and stomps goombas, anxiously waiting for that magic moment when Toad will tell him that the princesss in in another castle.
 

Havoc

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Ed123 said:
sgc_meltdown said:
Vaarna_Aarne said:
Actually, I understand there are several Prime Material planes and Planescape is a setting that covers the other planes in more detail.

planescape multiverse.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UKQwe.jpg (high res)

new 4E planescape.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/31n1o.jpg

as you can see there is always room for innovative improvements to d&d settings to better meet the expectations of modern roleplayers

the fuck
 

sgc_meltdown

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Messages
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Basically WoTC wanted to ask the question: What if Apple designed Planescape?

The resulting cosmos is very intuitive and accessible to new planeswalkers who want to easily find the kind of fresh and 'out-there' adventures in the multiverse that match their character lifestyle and roleplaying needs.
 

Surf Solar

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Maybe because the original setting was meant to be a clusterfuck? Also, what happened to all those planes which got left out? It's simply gone "poof" or what is their explanation for that?
 

sgc_meltdown

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Messages
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Why have an interesting clusterfuck when you can have four themed corridors with everything thrown in haphazardly?


Surf Solar said:
what happened

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... 41&t=81973

They've scrapped the Great Wheel. We now have the Shadowfell, which is a sort of hybrid Plane of Shadow / Negative Energy Plane; the Feywild, which is Faerie and the Ethereal Plane; the Astral Sea, taking the place of the Astral Plane, within which the things that used to be on the Outer Planes exist as islands; and the Elemental Chaos, which is the Abyss plus the Inner Planes, either somewhere in the Astral Sea or off on its own.

The history of the multiverse has been rewritten to include a war between elemental Primordials who created the world in a state of chaos and the deities who defeated them and made it as it is today. Archons are super-elementals created as soldiers for the Primordials and now serve pretty much whoever. Angels are divine servants found in the employ of all the gods.

They appear to have left most good-aligned creatures either unstatted or only sketched out as they expect players to be good-aligned heroes fighting evil villains, and so good creatures aren't given combat stats.

Great Wheel is the whole business with sigil in the centre in the old planescape map I posted


http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rp ... story.html


4e's new cosmology has reduced the great wheel to a simplified core and removed many of the particular rules associated with planar travel.* The stated reason for many of these changes was to increase the accessibility of the planes to PCs and remove outerplanar realms that were rarely visited.

This bothers me on many levels, and not just because I think there should be one great wheel to rule them all. Mainly, it means that many of the ideas associated with the planes as I understood them will not be carried forward into future generations of D&D players. That is, they no longer form a set of core assumptions that can serve as the basis of conversations and shared adventures.

Okay, so that's sad, at least to me. But what about the larger issue? I feel as though the designers of 2e's Planescape (in particular Wolfgang Baur, Monte Cook, and Colin McComb) succeeding in creating an amazing fantasy realm that simply has no modern equal. In its totality, Planescape was beautiful, dangerous and absurd. The complex histories and ecologies of outerplanar beings served as the backdrop for some of D&D's most impressive features, such as the Blood War. (The fiends, in fact, were easily the most fleshed-out creatures in Planescape.)

Is there really a good reason for all of this amazing material to be either redacted or cut completely? Was trashing most of the multiverse (as it was constituted) worth it to "maximize playability"? Maybe I've become a grognard in that I don't think significant chunks of lore should be dropped because they are measurably less convenient during play, especially when they form the backdrop of established creature ecologies (see, for example, baatezu and tanar'ri tactics described in Hellbound: The Blood War).

:thumbsup:
 

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