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RPG's that can be deep enough like books and movies.

Atlet

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Nov 11, 2017
Messages
1,568
Up to a point, do you think RPGs can be deep enough that they can teach you good lessons about life, humanity, goodness, evil, religion, fear, etc, like those we can extract from good books and movies?

Can you list some RPGs that can do this? I think Fallout 1 and 2 was good in those areas. And, of course, PST.
 

Brother Rat

Novice
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Messages
27
No, all rpgs are shit

Serious answer: Of course RPGs can be just as good in the writing department as movies/books, it all depends on who's writing. That said, I think people put too much stock on "teaching truth" when it comes to fiction. If you're interested in real life, study science or history. The primary purpose of fiction is to escape from real life and to stimulate the imagination.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
No, all rpgs are shit

Serious answer: Of course RPGs can be just as good in the writing department as movies/books, it all depends on who's writing. That said, I think people put too much stock on "teaching truth" when it comes to fiction. If you're interested in real life, study science or history. The primary purpose of fiction is to escape from real life and to stimulate the imagination.
I think the idea of exploring concepts and ideas, rather than baseless escapism, is at the core of the purpose, even when people don't realize it themselves, and that that is part of what makes a good author and creator - a 'what if' that is presented by the author and essentially explored together. This is why "teaching moment" literature and gaming always lack the fundamental essence, the core foundation that makes people appreciate it far beyond it's own time has passed. They're trying to fulfil a set of necessary criteria, and teach a set of tenets or tenuous morals, pre-packaged and trite, not explore new concepts or vistas together.

Things that have endured, like Deus Ex and Planescape and Fallout weren't just escapism, nor did they try to merely tell us a story or teach us some point about war is bad or have no regrats or don't trust the man, man; they were explorations by the writers, and we were along for the ride.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Up to a point, do you think RPGs can be deep enough that they can teach you good lessons about life, humanity, goodness, evil, religion, fear, etc, like those we can extract from good books and movies?

Can you list some RPGs that can do this? I think Fallout 1 and 2 was good in those areas. And, of course, PST.
I am not sure if Fallout teaches you about anything other than what you want to get out of it. You can play being a good guy or being a really bad person, and either way, you can achieve your goal. Heck, I have massacred most of Vault City before thanks to Ms I-Am-Superior-Man SJW trying to toss me out of the place for fixing the reactor. Toss this out, bitch *5mm rounds to the guts*

The best RPG for ethics lessons is Ultima bar none. You cannot even complete Ultima 4 without learning those lessons. Ultima 5 shows you what happens when you take those ethics lessons too far. Ultima 6 is about tolerance and seeing the other side. Ultima 7 is about seeming vs reality (the Fellowship seems to be the good guys, but boy, oh boy...)

Every last one of those lessons are things that are very relevant today for obvious reasons (i.e., leftwing progtard SJWs).
 

Atlet

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Nov 11, 2017
Messages
1,568
No, all rpgs are shit

Serious answer: Of course RPGs can be just as good in the writing department as movies/books, it all depends on who's writing. That said, I think people put too much stock on "teaching truth" when it comes to fiction. If you're interested in real life, study science or history. The primary purpose of fiction is to escape from real life and to stimulate the imagination.
I think the idea of exploring concepts and ideas, rather than baseless escapism, is at the core of the purpose, even when people don't realize it themselves, and that that is part of what makes a good author and creator - a 'what if' that is presented by the author and essentially explored together. This is why "teaching moment" literature and gaming always lack the fundamental essence, the core foundation that makes people appreciate it far beyond it's own time has passed. They're trying to fulfil a set of necessary criteria, and teach a set of tenets or tenuous morals, pre-packaged and trite, not explore new concepts or vistas together.

Things that have endured, like Deus Ex and Planescape and Fallout weren't just escapism, nor did they try to merely tell us a story or teach us some point about war is bad or have no regrats or don't trust the man, man; they were explorations by the writers, and we were along for the ride.

Escapism was one of the main caracteristics of the romantic era in literature, and dont necessary is a bad thing in art, although many authors criticized this model.

But, I agree with you that Fallout and Planescape was not a mere escapism form of art. They were just a fantasy setting that dealed with topics and questions that are universal.
 

taxalot

I'm a spicy fellow.
Patron
Joined
Oct 28, 2010
Messages
9,613
Location
Your wallet.
Codex 2013 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
Final Fantasy 7 taught me you should cherish the time with your loved ones before a goth teenager stabs her with Masamune.

Mother 3 made me fucking cry but I have learnt nothing of value from it.

The Ultima series taught me that being virtuous rarely helps you win the game.

Planescape Torment taught me that in the end nobody gives a shit about you going to Hell.

Fallout taught me that it is nearly impossible to go through one's existence without killing something, like rats. Also, vote for the green party.

And most importantly , the Witcher series taught me that I should fuck as much as possible.
 

Maxie

Guest
Have you perhaps considered the fact that games are an entirely different medium and as such they require different storytelling than literature, namely, storytelling through gameplay, location design, soundwork etc.

There's depth to be found outside of monologues
 

kintake

Savant
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Messages
239
Location
Norway
Temple of elemental evil taught me a lot in it's very first combat encounter. As Richard Niels Borchard said it in 1674, "Serendipity, the font essence of spirituality itself, is verily that feeling of a proper fucking bassdrop in yon combat theme"
Besides that, I guess tabletop roleplaying can be a teaching experience if you're not a cynical cunt.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,287
Very good, I really want to play Ultima VII: the Black Gate. Seems to be what I am looking for.
You will need this, then: http://exult.sourceforge.net/

However, if I were you, I'd start playing from 4 onwards to get the whole feel of the series and the role of the Avatar in the series. And if you ever come across Nakar's LP of the series, that is NOT what the Avatar is about, but it is freaking hilarious for veterans of the series.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
No, all rpgs are shit

Serious answer: Of course RPGs can be just as good in the writing department as movies/books, it all depends on who's writing. That said, I think people put too much stock on "teaching truth" when it comes to fiction. If you're interested in real life, study science or history. The primary purpose of fiction is to escape from real life and to stimulate the imagination.
I think the idea of exploring concepts and ideas, rather than baseless escapism, is at the core of the purpose, even when people don't realize it themselves, and that that is part of what makes a good author and creator - a 'what if' that is presented by the author and essentially explored together. This is why "teaching moment" literature and gaming always lack the fundamental essence, the core foundation that makes people appreciate it far beyond it's own time has passed. They're trying to fulfil a set of necessary criteria, and teach a set of tenets or tenuous morals, pre-packaged and trite, not explore new concepts or vistas together.

Things that have endured, like Deus Ex and Planescape and Fallout weren't just escapism, nor did they try to merely tell us a story or teach us some point about war is bad or have no regrats or don't trust the man, man; they were explorations by the writers, and we were along for the ride.

Escapism was one of the main caracteristics of the romantic era in literature, and dont necessary is a bad thing in art, although many authors criticized this model.

But, I agree with you that Fallout and Planescape was not a mere escapism form of art. They were just a fantasy setting that dealed with topics and questions that are universal.
I dunno, I think we could just have vaguely different definitions at play here, and while escapism is obviously part of tons of literature, I don't think it's the core of the greatest works. I think the romantic era in literature is a good example, because much like most eras, we've picked and chosen the best parts of it to hold aloft in history, whereas the vast majority of works, although they helped define that era, is largely forgotten.

You could say much the same about modern-day gaming, that escapism is a big part of it, but most of the things being produced are trite bullshit. Escapism for the sake of escapism rarely interests for long, and are easily replaced by the latest thing, whereas explorative and speculative fiction has a greater tendency to inspire and be remembered. I think it could be argued that it's all forms of escapism, but I would argue that the distinction is still important. Planescape as a setting, for example, is an example of shared exploration and speculation in the confines of a given scenario and all it's various situations and possibilities given within the limitations of that, whereas Numenera as a setting is pure unadulterated escapism where absolutely anything goes, yet few would argue Numenera superior by any stretch of the imagination.

The same goes for a lot of modern-day CRPG:s. Skyrim, for example, purports to be about exploration, but it doesn't actually explore anything at all, except on a surface level. It's pure escapism, and ultimately rings hollow and is about as inspiring or thought-provoking as opening a window to an alleyway. To someone completely starved for meaningful interaction with the world, that window into the rancid alleyway is mind-blowing, but it achieves nothing a walk in the park wouldn't do better, so it's no small wonder people curl up in front of the latest hiking simulator.
Have you perhaps considered the fact that games are an entirely different medium and as such they require different storytelling than literature, namely, storytelling through gameplay, location design, soundwork etc.

There's depth to be found outside of monologues
It's incredibly sad that we have this amazing medium that showed such promise, capable of outclassing any book just by the fact that it's potentially reactive and employs dimensions simply impossible by means of de facto monologue, and yet we find ourselves now on a level that essentially fuses Cultural Marxism and Stephanie Meyer.
 

Jarmaro

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
1,466
Location
Lair of Despair
Video games taught me that everyone has some loot on them, so if I can actually farm normal people to get something of high value, why wouldn't I just kill some bandits in RL and live normally from loot I've looted?
Fucking society, in games they would at least thank me, or even give a reward. In RL everyone goes mad beceause of it and want me thrown to jail.
:negative:
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,623
Up to a point, do you think RPGs can be deep enough that they can teach you good lessons about life, humanity, goodness, evil, religion, fear, etc, like those we can extract from good books and movies?

Can you list some RPGs that can do this? I think Fallout 1 and 2 was good in those areas. And, of course, PST.

Eh? I guess Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout (FO2 doesn't teach anything, its villains were cookie-cutter evil).

On the other hand, New Vegas has Caesar, who knows he is ruthless, who knows he is hurting people, who enslaves and rapes and pillages, but he does this for a greater, noble goal, which is to unify the wasteland under one banner and craft a self-sustaining empire out of it. Meanwhile, the Master sincerely believes that the evil he is doing is actually good, in spite of evidence to the contrary. New Vegas shows that you can't simply cross-off someone as evil just because of his actions, and Fallout shows that some evil people aren't evil, they are simply insane. Though I doubt this simple message gets across people heads.

Fallout also has the player seriously considering the consequences of his actions, choose between what you think is right, and The Witcher usually has you choosing between the less shit option. Legacy of Kain, particularly Soul Reaver and Soul Reaver 2, show us that "goodness and justice" isn't always "goodness and justice", no matter how you dress it up. Undead Raziel had more humanity to him than Sarafan Raziel.

I think a better question to be asked is: what insightful lessons can books and movies teach us? JRPGs teach you the importance of friendship, every story is basically "with the power of love and friendship".
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
The best RPG for ethics lessons is Ultima bar none. You cannot even complete Ultima 4 without learning those lessons. Ultima 5 shows you what happens when you take those ethics lessons too far. Ultima 6 is about tolerance and seeing the other side. Ultima 7 is about seeming vs reality (the Fellowship seems to be the good guys, but boy, oh boy...)

Every last one of those lessons are things that are very relevant today for obvious reasons (i.e., leftwing progtard SJWs).

 

dragonul09

Arcane
Edgy
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,445
Mask of Betrayer is pretty good, tries to trow some shades of grey about death, justice, what's evil and good



The dialogue with Mirkul is pretty entertaining
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
I think any good story should deal with some aspect of life, on video games or any other media, escapism is okay but sometimes you want something more thoughtful. Many people when they talk of comparisons between videogames and literature, they assume that videogames can only try something more serious in terms of storytelling if they ape literature with endless walls of non interactive text or movies with endless cinematics.

But this is a silly idea, the vary basic component of any RPG worth the description is the hero journey, the most ancient form of storytelling developed, it is the hero journey turned into mechanics that define RPGs, the hero has to make choices on his journey, acquiring experience, changing himself, and then go back to his community sharing his exploits, this is how people conquered the world and one of the stories we mostly understand, it is an story so universally understood that a chinese and a brazillian are able to understand despite the big differences on culture.

Is there something 100% escapist? Even the games with the most mediocre stories completely devoted to repetitive addicting gameplay like MMOs, still maintain the bones of that story. The escapist hobby vs serious storytelling media debate is quite silly, things aren't so black and white, even your fantasies come from culture if you didn't notice, you may like to just being a hero killing goblins but this desire to conquer, to expand, to improve and to be ambitious and build something are parts of the human experience and this "serious storytelling" many times devolve on cliche abuse and depressive storytelling because everything must be sad and edgy nowdays to be taken seriously by pretentious people.

Another problem is that good writing is hard so people tend to appeal to cliches into their games to not have the endless headache that is to build an story with good foundation, so many games have the story as just a series of placeholder cliches copied and pasted from other games, leading to the bad reputation that the fantasy genre has. Many developers defend this claiming games are just escapism but it truly is or are they defending their asses and hiding their inability to make something better?

People recently said to me they prefer "escapism" because they hate the idea of political preaching with people with their endless annoying complaining and whining about their petty insignificant issues and depressive for the sake of depressive edgy "serious storytelling", but they truly are after escapism or just avoiding bad storytelling like a plague? With bad storytelling being the norm on this industry, I wouldn't be surprised if people prefer to play korean MMOs with yet another copy paste cliche fest straight from the Lord of the Rings with big boobies ladies, half naked than having to withstand some annoying, whining teenager girl discovering , you can't believe it... she is a lesbian... oh mah God, the world will end... as if the world even care to emit a single fart about it.

I really liked Quest for Glory games and the Fallout games, especially Fallout 1, they deal with the main themes that RPGs are about, like the conquer of the unknown, the choices you have to make and the change life imposes on you with the constant desire and ambition for improvement both personally and of the community with the new knowledge people gather of their explorations of the world. Sure, you can copy paste those ideas of yours from other games and media calling a day then go muh "escapism" as a developer but that doesn't mean someone can't make better stories than you, just that you are mediocre about it.
 

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